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Jere Lehtinen vs Derek Sanderson

View Poll Results: Choose a player:
Jere Kalervo Lehtinen 57 82.61%
Derek Sanderson 12 17.39%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-17-2009, 10:16 PM
  #1
Ziostilon
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Jere Lehtinen vs Derek Sanderson

Might be a bit harder to compare a center to a RW. But lets see how it goes.

Who is the better player?
Jere Kalervo Lehtinen or Derek Sanderson




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Old
12-17-2009, 10:18 PM
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Dreakmur
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As much as I love Sanderson, and as much as I think Lehtinen is over-rated..... Lehtinen is still better.

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Old
12-17-2009, 10:24 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
As much as I love Sanderson, and as much as I think Lehtinen is over-rated..... Lehtinen is still better.
A 3 time Selke winner is overrated?

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12-17-2009, 10:29 PM
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Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Courtesy Flush View Post
A 3 time Selke winner is overrated?
I find a lot of Selke winners are over-rated.... probably because I don't like how the criteria for awarding the trophy has changed.

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12-18-2009, 12:36 AM
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Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I find a lot of Selke winners are over-rated.... probably because I don't like how the criteria for awarding the trophy has changed.
There's criteria?

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Old
12-18-2009, 01:01 AM
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Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
There's criteria?
Yes.

You have to be good offensively before you can win the award for best defensive player

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Old
12-18-2009, 01:14 AM
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Nalyd Psycho
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Yes.

You have to be good offensively before you can win the award for best defensive player
If a player is selke worthy they get the ice time to put up some points. Guys who only get 17 points aren't valued highly enough by their team to deserve selke consideration.

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12-18-2009, 01:49 AM
  #8
Dark Shadows
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Why Sanderson in this comparison?

Westfall was better defensively, and arguably, so was Marcotte

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12-18-2009, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Why Sanderson in this comparison?

Westfall was better defensively, and arguably, so was Marcotte
Sanderson was very good at a young age, and very flamboyant. Really just a better than average player that had a worse than average career.

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Old
12-18-2009, 04:08 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
If a player is selke worthy they get the ice time to put up some points. Guys who only get 17 points aren't valued highly enough by their team to deserve selke consideration.
If a player is good defensively, he will get points?

Point totals are absolutely irrelivant when discussing defensive ability. The Selke trophy is not for "most highly valued player", it's for "best defensive player".

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Old
12-18-2009, 04:17 AM
  #11
Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
If a player is good defensively, he will get points?

Point totals are absolutely irrelivant when discussing defensive ability. The Selke trophy is not for "most highly valued player", it's for "best defensive player".
If a player is great defensively. He will be valuable to a team. If he is valuable to his team. He will get ice time. Players with higher ice time get more points.

If a player is not valuable to his team, he isn't good enough defensively to merit Selke consideration.

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12-18-2009, 04:47 AM
  #12
Canadiens1958
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Derek Sanderson

On any defensive trio or "checking" line there is the key player whose presence allows the other two to optimize their game. Recognizing this player is the key to appreciating why the line has success.

Ed Westfall was the player who made Derek Sanderson appear like a great defensive player. Westfall, when Sanderson arrived with the Bruins, was an established player, excellent defensively on a weak team. Sanderson, a rookie, fresh from junior - Niagara Falls, did not know the NHL, likewise the NHL did not know him. Westfall helped introduce Sanderson to the NHL and supported his high risk defensive play with his great anticipation.

Granted, Sanderson had issues with lifestyle choices before and after leaving the Bruins but when he returned to the NHL with other teams he never had a linemate that would his style like Ed Westfall did. Significantly when Ed Westfall joined the Islanders he facilitated the defensive side of many of their forwards.

Don Marcotte, while an excellent defensive forward, never reached Ed Westfall heights, IMO.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 12-18-2009 at 04:49 AM. Reason: addition
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Old
12-18-2009, 06:34 AM
  #13
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I will add, Sanderson was pretty darn good at faceoffs.

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Old
12-18-2009, 06:48 AM
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Talent wise, Sanderson by a mile and a half. He also wasted his talent IMO.

Lehtinen got more out of his talent and has ended up with the better career.

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12-18-2009, 08:37 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
On any defensive trio or "checking" line there is the key player whose presence allows the other two to optimize their game. Recognizing this player is the key to appreciating why the line has success.

Ed Westfall was the player who made Derek Sanderson appear like a great defensive player. Westfall, when Sanderson arrived with the Bruins, was an established player, excellent defensively on a weak team. Sanderson, a rookie, fresh from junior - Niagara Falls, did not know the NHL, likewise the NHL did not know him. Westfall helped introduce Sanderson to the NHL and supported his high risk defensive play with his great anticipation.

Granted, Sanderson had issues with lifestyle choices before and after leaving the Bruins but when he returned to the NHL with other teams he never had a linemate that would his style like Ed Westfall did. Significantly when Ed Westfall joined the Islanders he facilitated the defensive side of many of their forwards.

Don Marcotte, while an excellent defensive forward, never reached Ed Westfall heights, IMO.
Certainly not. My point however was that Marcotte was ahead of Sanderson on the defensive scales.

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12-18-2009, 08:41 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
If a player is good defensively, he will get points?

Point totals are absolutely irrelivant when discussing defensive ability. The Selke trophy is not for "most highly valued player", it's for "best defensive player".
Point totals are not irrelevant when discussing the Selke Trophy. In many years, The voters have voted on that trophy as if it were a two way trophy instead of just a defensive trophy.

Otherwise guys like Ron Francis, Doug Gilmour or Rod Brind Amour would never have won the trophy. They were very good defensively, but in their times, there were several players who focused solely on defense who were better. Those players are often overlooked in favor of more two way defensive players.

But transition game Defense to offense, tight checking while remaining an offensive threat, etc, to me are worthy of note for the Selke too.


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 12-18-2009 at 08:54 AM.
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Old
12-18-2009, 08:52 AM
  #17
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Jere Lehtinen

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Old
12-18-2009, 01:32 PM
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Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Point totals are not irrelevant when discussing the Selke Trophy. In many years, The voters have voted on that trophy as if it were a two way trophy instead of just a defensive trophy.

Otherwise guys like Ron Francis, Doug Gilmour or Rod Brind Amour would never have won the trophy. They were very good defensively, but in their times, there were several players who focused solely on defense who were better. Those players are often overlooked in favor of more two way defensive players.

But transition game Defense to offense, tight checking while remaining an offensive threat, etc, to me are worthy of note for the Selke too.
I didn't say points totals were irrelevent when discussing the Selke Trophy - I said they are irrelevant when discussing defensive play, which means they should be irrelevant for the Selke.

The Selke very rarely goes to the best defensive player.

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12-18-2009, 01:34 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
If a player is great defensively. He will be valuable to a team. If he is valuable to his team. He will get ice time. Players with higher ice time get more points.

If a player is not valuable to his team, he isn't good enough defensively to merit Selke consideration.
Valuable players will get ice time, but that may not be offensive time. With no offensive ice time, it's tough to put up points.

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Old
12-18-2009, 03:43 PM
  #20
Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Valuable players will get ice time, but that may not be offensive time. With no offensive ice time, it's tough to put up points.
ice time is ice time. There has never been a player who had the skills to play great defence but not the skills to put up 30 points with 18 mins a game.

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12-18-2009, 05:20 PM
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Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I didn't say points totals were irrelevent when discussing the Selke Trophy - I said they are irrelevant when discussing defensive play, which means they should be irrelevant for the Selke.

The Selke very rarely goes to the best defensive player.
And I think transitioning defense to offense and keeping opposing players wary and tentative of your ability to turn it around on them is very relevant to Selke voting and defense in general. It makes them second guess their moves, take longer to make decisions and increases their error ratio.

In the same manner as being a physical force whom makes opposing forwards wary of crossing your blueline and prone to more mistakes because they are worrying about you creaming them.

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Old
12-19-2009, 03:08 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
ice time is ice time. There has never been a player who had the skills to play great defence but not the skills to put up 30 points with 18 mins a game.
There are lots of different kinds of ice time. Each kind lends itself to putting up different stats, and not all kinds of ice time allow for point production.

Defense doesn't really take skill - it takes effort and sacrifice. That's why there's never an excuse to play bad defensively.....

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Old
12-19-2009, 04:12 AM
  #23
Canadiens1958
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Point Worth Developing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
And I think transitioning defense to offense and keeping opposing players wary and tentative of your ability to turn it around on them is very relevant to Selke voting and defense in general. It makes them second guess their moves, take longer to make decisions and increases their error ratio.

In the same manner as being a physical force whom makes opposing forwards wary of crossing your blueline and prone to more mistakes because they are worrying about you creaming them.
Point worth developing. Knowing when and how to transition from defense to offense and vice versa. Some start to early becoming liabilities, others wait to long missing opportunities. Best defined by proper positioning. These attributes do not show up in stats.

Add recognizing the ice geometry of a situation and being able to shorten or expand the checking radius.

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Old
12-19-2009, 09:03 AM
  #24
Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
There are lots of different kinds of ice time. Each kind lends itself to putting up different stats, and not all kinds of ice time allow for point production.

Defense doesn't really take skill - it takes effort and sacrifice. That's why there's never an excuse to play bad defensively.....
Uh. Positioning and passing? Skating and play along the boards? Stickwork? Hockey sense and quick decisions when facing oncoming forecheckers?

Each of these are a skill and each extremely important to defense.

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Old
12-19-2009, 09:04 AM
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Turk Sanderson:

Derek was an excellent "Breakup, Breakout" artist, as well as a First Rate Face-Off Man...Knew his way around the net too....Ed Westfall was a pure Defensive Force...

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