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Is Laviolette working these guys to death in practice?

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Old
12-22-2009, 02:07 PM
  #26
JXC
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I see improvements
There have been no improvements.

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12-22-2009, 02:07 PM
  #27
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You know its bad when you're pissed off to see a powerplay. They are skating like chickens with their heads cut off.

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12-22-2009, 02:23 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I think people often confuse tentative confusion for laziness...I think that's the bigger issue with this team. No one is comfortable (particularly in the offensive zone) with where they're going, and where their teammates are going, and it's leading to lots of ugh.
Exactly. As I have said countless times, unless you are absolutely mercurially talented (see: Kovalev), you can't make the NHL by being lazy, it just doesn't happen and I don't think we have any players who are talented enough to have been lazy and still make it into the league.

I think there's a lot of factors at work here that are contributing to our struggles.

1. Trouble implementing the system (too much too soon IMO).
2. Guys aren't in shape, when you spend 3 years doing nothing and then have someone come in who's going to make you work, you're not going to transform right away.
3. PP and PK blowing ass. I don't think this is on Lavy either, I doubt he's involved with either unit too much right now.
4. Rough schedule.
5. Groan if you want, but absolutely incredible bad luck. Since Laviolette got here, opposing goalies have had a .940 save percentage against us. Considering we have talented shooters and the league average save percentage is probably around .907, that's pretty rough. Then you have the pucks in the crease that don't go in for us and go in for opponents, Burrows scoring goals with his butt, pucks going in off our players, etc. It's been pretty horrendous.

I'm definitely discouraged by the way some guys have reacted to the new coach and I'm not a fan of Lavy trying to do 3 scoring lines again, but we just need to be patient.

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Old
12-22-2009, 02:27 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
There have been no improvements.
I'm pretty much with you on this one.

I have seen a philosophical change in certain aspects of the game, but I have yet to see actual improvements.

In theory those changes in philosophy will eventually bring about the desired improvements, but at this point, I'm not holding my breath.

This team is very difficult to watch right now.

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12-22-2009, 02:30 PM
  #30
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You don't have to be lazy to be outworked.

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12-22-2009, 02:38 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
You don't have to be lazy to be outworked.
Yeah, but how are these guys supposed to outwork the other team when the other team is in much better shape?

I mean, if you're running a 10K race against a guy who runs marathons, are you going to be upset when you lose or realize that the other guy was much more prepared?

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Old
12-22-2009, 02:41 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
Yeah, special teams are a gigantic issue as well...last night was certainly a laughingstock.

The biggest issue on the PP is net presence. It's just wretched to watch sometimes. When Hartnell isn't out there, we often have guys just rotating that duty throughout the shift...and none of them are good at it. Carter for instance, has often been in front of the net on the PP, and he pretty much sucks at it Giroux is there sometimes, no one is there sometimes, you never know what you're gonna get.

And then when Hartnell is out there...****, I don't know what's happened to him, but he's been crappy too. The more I watch him lately, the more I start to think his past success for us in that role was more of a fluke than anything else...a whole lot of fortunate circumstances. If you watch Hartnell, he spends most of his time in front of the net standing up straight, with his stick in the air, and being pushed around by the D. Add in the fact that he doesn't have great hands, isn't particularly good at deflecting pucks, and has hockey smarts that often make you scratch your head...and well, it's not a recipe for frequent success.

Knuble, used to get down low and dig in, with his feet spread, and stick on the ice. He didn't get pushed around much, he was good at deflecting pucks, had good hands, and was smart....a recipe for frequent success.


As for the PK, I don't have as many answers there. No question, bad luck has played a part. One thing I could maybe say is that players aren't attacking the puck lately as hard as they were before. That's been happening all game long actually. I don't know what it's about...I don't know if Lavi thought they were being too overly aggressive and giving up too many chances, and he voiced that...and now players aren't as sure when to attack and when not to...and that is what's often leading to the tentative confusion and seemingly sitting back more. Along with this, the whole activation of the D has been less notable in recent games as compared to the first few games under Lavi.

But anyway, back to the PK...yeah, guys seem to be sitting back a little bit more. Some things are just baffling, though...like, for instance, the Horton goal last night where Pronger was right near him and halfheartedly waved his stick in the direction of Horton instead of being strong on Horton and muting or at least deflecting the shot as he clearly could have. Was Pronger confused about something there? I don't see how...no way he could have thought it wasn't his play to make or that Coburn should have been the one to make that play or something...Coburn was dropped closer to the net...wasn't close enough. Pronger had to know that play was his to make. Was he just being lazy? Was he tired? I dunno.
I still believe JVR should be on the PP more and put in front of the net. His body is supposed to replace the lost Knuble, but he only got 55 seconds on the PP and just over 10 minutes overall, which I find inexcusable for a capable and skilled player like him. I believe that Hartnell should be benched and JVR replace him on the PP. See what happens when we don't take his stupid penalties. If that makes a huge difference, imagine who's going after the freeze then. Of late, the pucks we have been dealing with that go in while we are on the PK have either been deflections or lucky bounces, and you can't do much with them sadly. Even if you have an amazing goalie, deflections are a huge back breaker, same with bad/lucky bounces. I still think there should be something to motivate them instead of just practicing their ***** off. Like I said somewhere else, it's something psychological now considering the team is pretty much healthy, with the exception of Emery. Maybe cake? Something to get their spirits up instead of booze? Maybe go send them to see Avatar in 3D at an IMAX, that might help their moods on feeling better. Get them loose, excited and motivated, not tired and overworked... hopefully not overworked though haha.

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Old
12-22-2009, 02:46 PM
  #33
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The not in shape thing kind of makes sense when you remember how underwhelming they looked earlier in the season in those fishing trip pictures. Most of them looked a bit flabby for pro athletes. I agree that Stevens should have been fired in the off season so that the team had time to learn the new system.

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12-22-2009, 02:51 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yeah, but how are these guys supposed to outwork the other team when the other team is in much better shape?

I mean, if you're running a 10K race against a guy who runs marathons, are you going to be upset when you lose or realize that the other guy was much more prepared?
I don't buy that every team in the league is in better shape than the Flyers. They're losing battles because they care less, not because their physical tools are deficient.

They are professional athletes who have been on strict work out and practice routines throughout their careers since junior/college/developmental leagues/etc. or earlier. You said you can't make the NHL if you're lazy unless you have rare talent; you also can't last in the NHL if you can't keep pace with the rest of the league.

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12-22-2009, 02:56 PM
  #35
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I don't buy that the players are in significantly worse shape than other teams either.

I did think it was possible that they are currently being worked harder than any other other team in the league as their coach can seemingly be a madman about that and has plenty of reasons to be pissed off right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
I still believe JVR should be on the PP more and put in front of the net. His body is supposed to replace the lost Knuble, but he only got 55 seconds on the PP and just over 10 minutes overall, which I find inexcusable for a capable and skilled player like him.
I agree that JVR should definitely get some more time in that role. He may not do as well as Knuble just yet, but I at least like that his style and approach is more like Knuble's and less like Hartnell's.

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12-22-2009, 03:00 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
I don't buy that every team in the league is in better shape than the Flyers. They're losing battles because they care less, not because their physical tools are deficient.

They are professional athletes who have been on strict work out and practice routines throughout their careers since junior/college/developmental leagues/etc. or earlier. You said you can't make the NHL if you're lazy unless you have rare talent; you also can't last in the NHL if you can't keep pace with the rest of the league.
I dunno, we can agree to disagree here, but just keep in mind that these guys certainly didn't have to skate or work a lot under Stevens, so why are they going to be in great shape like everyone else? I think they're in good shape, but I think other teams practice a lot harder, Pronger has specifically mentioned several times that we don't practice hard (this was when Stevens was still coach).

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12-22-2009, 03:07 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
I don't buy that the players are in significantly worse shape than other teams either.

I did think it was possible that they are currently being worked harder than any other other team in the league as their coach can seemingly be a madman about that and has plenty of reasons to be pissed off right now.


I agree that JVR should definitely get some more time in that role. He may not do as well as Knuble just yet, but I at least like that his style and approach is more like Knuble's and less like Hartnell's.
But if PL doesn't like how JVR plays much, yet he always preaches to get in front of the net and crash it, he's just an idiot. Seriously, if he won't play JVR, I want Stevens back to be honest. And I still feel they should scratch Hartnell, Asham and Pyorala, and put in Legein, Kalinski, and Powe instead of them. Legein I would love to see in the NHL. Kalisnki and Powe are smarter and harder working players than Hartnell and Asham if you ask me, also with more speed. These are also guys that would probably love being worked to damn hard if it meant for them to be better and a chance to play. See I feel you should play only players that you know WANT to play, WANT to do the work right and WANT to win. Hartnell I can definitely say doesn't really have that mentality right now. Lines if those 3 were scratched and the others brought in:

Gagne-Richards-Powe
Kalinski-Carter-Briere
JVR-Giroux-Legein
Carcillo-Betts-Lappy

Those top 3 lines would be faster, have a better scoring touch and also less dumb ass penalties. Also considering how we are tanking, I think it might be a good idea right now to gauge how good our deep pool of prospects are.

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Old
12-22-2009, 03:09 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
I'm pretty much with you on this one.

I have seen a philosophical change in certain aspects of the game, but I have yet to see actual improvements.
There were a couple games where you could tell the difference, but then it evaporated.

If one were to watch excerpts of Stevens' last five games and Laviolette's last five games, one would be hard pressed to discern any difference (with the exception of Laviolette's Pure Genius move of putting Carcillo on the top line ).

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12-22-2009, 03:10 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I dunno, we can agree to disagree here, but just keep in mind that these guys certainly didn't have to skate or work a lot under Stevens, so why are they going to be in great shape like everyone else? I think they're in good shape, but I think other teams practice a lot harder, Pronger has specifically mentioned several times that we don't practice hard (this was when Stevens was still coach).
They play ~100 games a year against the best competition in the world; in the last two years they made the Conference Finals and pushed the eventual Stanley Cup champs in a tough first round series. This doesn't happen with players who aren't in shape, regardless of what goes on in practice.

'Practicing hard' doesn't necessarily mean pushing the players until their legs are jelly. It means going over the gameplan with a fine tooth comb, working on the little things that make wins easier to come by. Stevens was almost certainly at fault on this, given the talk of lack of breakout/shootout/faceoff practice that has been reported on this board.

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12-22-2009, 03:14 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
They play ~100 games a year against the best competition in the world; in the last two years they made the Conference Finals and pushed the eventual Stanley Cup champs in a tough first round series. This doesn't happen with players who aren't in shape, regardless of what goes on in practice.

'Practicing hard' doesn't necessarily mean pushing the players until their legs are jelly. It means going over the gameplan with a fine tooth comb, working on the little things that make wins easier to come by. Stevens was almost certainly at fault on this, given the talk of lack of breakout/shootout/faceoff practice that has been reported on this board.
Eh I think they're in shape to a good degree. But it's not like there's a definite line between being "in shape" and "not in shape." I personally think that other teams are conditioned a helluva lot better than we are and it helps explain the 3rd period collapses that we've seen consistently for the past 3-4 years.

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12-22-2009, 03:18 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Hextall89 View Post
You know its bad when you're pissed off to see a powerplay. They are skating like chickens with their heads cut off.
I totally agree with you.

What gets me is that a few games ago, there were a couple of passes on the perimeter which then led to a one-timer goal by Pronger from the point. On the next PP, all they tried to do was get the puck down low and not once did they try what brought them success.

Pronger's shot is an asset. Use it for goodness sakes.

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12-22-2009, 03:22 PM
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I'm sure these guys can pull off more goals than the Flyers:


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12-22-2009, 03:28 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Eh I think they're in shape to a good degree. But it's not like there's a definite line between being "in shape" and "not in shape." I personally think that other teams are conditioned a helluva lot better than we are and it helps explain the 3rd period collapses that we've seen consistently for the past 3-4 years.
Third period collapses have been grossly overstated on this board, so I don't buy that either.

08/09: 27-3-2 when leading after two periods
07/08: 30-1-3 when leading after two periods
year from hell: 12-0-1 when leading after two periods (heh)

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12-22-2009, 03:30 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Hextall89 View Post
You know its bad when you're pissed off to see a powerplay. They are skating like chickens with their heads cut off.
Thats what is mind bottling to me too. A team should be able to learn a new powerplay within a few practices and really be working it will within a few weeks. its not like an entire system that needs to be developed which can create a whole new mindset for players. The powerplay is simple and they cant do it.

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12-22-2009, 03:31 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
There were a couple games where you could tell the difference, but then it evaporated.
Yea, that's why I'm very hesitant to call them improvements.

Improving means carrying it over into the next game. I see signs of possible improvement one game, and then an evaporation of those very same signs the next game. To me, that's the opposite of improvement, and borders on regression.

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12-22-2009, 03:39 PM
  #46
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Thats what is mind bottling to me too. A team should be able to learn a new powerplay within a few practices and really be working it will within a few weeks. its not like an entire system that needs to be developed which can create a whole new mindset for players. The powerplay is simple and they cant do it.
I'm not sure they should even be tinkering with what they were doing on the PP...they were on fire to start the year. They just need to tinker and fix the breakdowns that are happening with what they've been doing. They have 2 years of very strong PP play here...not sure what the hell has happened here (cost Stevens his job, and is killing this team under Laviolette).

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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Yea, that's why I'm very hesitant to call them improvements.

Improving means carrying it over into the next game. I see signs of possible improvement one game, and then an evaporation of those very same signs the next game. To me, that's the opposite of improvement, and borders on regression.
Generally speaking, I think their breakouts have shown consistent signs of improvement. They slip into bad habits every once in a while (the gap, which Jones did a diagram of for the first time ever the other night--made me laugh), but on the whole I think the forwards are coming back to help more and getting the puck beyond the blue line is a bit easier...after that it goes to **** with regularity.

When they do pull something off, it seems like a broken play, and they're just creating on the fly.

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12-22-2009, 04:11 PM
  #47
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Play like a professional, get treated like one. Play like a 5 year old pee wee team, you get drilled until you get it. Im ok with it. I hope their nuts fall off.

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12-22-2009, 04:36 PM
  #48
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According to twitter, one CSN blogger noted the Flyers practice today was canceled.

Quote:
@DNFlyers - Flyers practice here in Tampa was canceled due to a sewage leak in locker room. Insert joke here. http://myloc.me/2h2XB
The sewage in question is believed to be the 2009-2010 Philadelphia Flyers team. Reports in Tampa say that as soon as the sewage gets back on the plane and heads back to Philadelphia, they may be able to clear up the smell in the now un-usable locker room.

2009-2010 Philadelphia Failers: Worse then Sewage

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12-22-2009, 04:49 PM
  #49
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The sewage in question is believed to be the 2009-2010 Philadelphia Flyers team. Reports in Tampa say that as soon as the sewage gets back on the plane and heads back to Philadelphia, they may be able to clear up the smell in the now un-usable locker room.

2009-2010 Philadelphia Failers: Worse then Sewage
That's awesome.

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12-22-2009, 04:55 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Generally speaking, I think their breakouts have shown consistent signs of improvement. They slip into bad habits every once in a while (the gap, which Jones did a diagram of for the first time ever the other night--made me laugh), but on the whole I think the forwards are coming back to help more and getting the puck beyond the blue line is a bit easier...after that it goes to **** with regularity.
Yea, I can't disagree with that. There's no question in my mind that Lavi has definitely made philosophical changes, and the one area its seems to be most noticeable (along with the D pinching in the offensive zone and joining the rush more aggressively) would be on the breakout.

To be clear, I think we will be more consistent and improve in all areas, once the new system takes more of a hold. Its just that you really have to search and be pretty optimistic to truly notice those improvements now. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'd just like to see more of those improvements being carried over more noticeably from game to game.

Of course, I'm viewing everything as a frustrated fan that would like to see results, so my analysis of this team right now is a tad bit on the pessimistic side.

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When they do pull something off, it seems like a broken play, and they're just creating on the fly.
The remnants of Stevens hockey.

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