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Torts' Rangers revert to Renney style?

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Old
12-23-2009, 09:32 AM
  #26
Musto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Yeah this whole "Tortorella is reverting to Renney's style!" isn't quite true. Like Dubinsky says, there's a pretty substantial difference.

I think Tortorella leaned too hard on the 'safe is death' rhetoric and it was really just used for theatrical effect...or at least, he realized that his team/any team can't really play that way and you have to have some responsibility and balance on defense.
yup . . . what he says to the press and what he actually does are not always perfectly congruent. no big deal, he's an ass to the press and i personally think thats fine (and entertaining). he is a decent coach and he is proving he is not a one trick pony drill sergeant slave driving monster. well, maybe he is some of those things some of the time.

so safe is not death, then . . . ok, it shows us he is capable of working with what hes got

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12-23-2009, 09:32 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
What? You like Tortorella's persona better than Renney, hence he's the better option? This is a hockey team, not a reality show. We're looking for wins, not sound bytes.
you defined "dynamic" as strictly persona, i didn't. This is a hockey team? Really? No way! GEt out!

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12-23-2009, 09:33 AM
  #28
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Man, you'd think Renney was the greatest coach and human being to ever grace this earth from reading some of the posts here.

The fact is he lost confidence in the team and himself, and that's why he was fired. What was Sather supposed to do? Sit there and feel sorry that Renney's team quit on him?

And how exactly did Renney do more with less? He lost something like 13 or the last 15 games before he was fired. You're telling me that's something to be proud of? The team the year prior to that with Jagr was at least as good as this one, so the whole point is moot.

And no, I don't think it's the same system also.

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12-23-2009, 09:37 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
you defined "dynamic" as strictly persona, i didn't. This is a hockey team? Really? No way! GEt out!
You started with "Renney is more methodical and robotic", a clear statement about his persona. Not exactly rocket science to realize "dynamic" was referring to Tortorella in the same manner. Unless of course you're just back tracking now.

So what exactly is more "dynamic" about Tortorella?

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12-23-2009, 09:38 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by ThirdEye View Post
Man, you'd think Renney was the greatest coach and human being to ever grace this earth from reading some of the posts here.

The fact is he lost confidence in the team and himself, and that's why he was fired. What was Sather supposed to do? Sit there and feel sorry that Renney's team quit on him?

And how exactly did Renney do more with less? He lost something like 13 or the last 15 games before he was fired. You're telling me that's something to be proud of? The team the year prior to that with Jagr was at least as good as this one, so the whole point is moot.

And no, I don't think it's the same system also.
And we were lead to believe that a simple coaching change would solve all the team's problems.

People always said that team's success under Renney was the result of Jagr and Lundqvist. Right now any success the team has under Torts is the result of Gaborik and Lunddvist.

People were bored by Renney's teams. This team is pretty much the same — of course it's always must see TV when you never know when the head coach might blow a gasket. Of course you can see that kind of stuff just walking the streets in Manhattan.

And Renney losing 13 of 15? Look at the record after the 7-1 start.

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12-23-2009, 09:40 AM
  #31
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Or I guess you could stop basing your arguments off of strawman's like "we were lead to believe it was all the head coach!"

and "you guys just like seeing Tortorella blow up!"

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12-23-2009, 09:41 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Or I guess you could stop basing your arguments off of strawman's like "we were lead to believe it was all the head coach!"

and "you guys just like seeing Tortorella blow up!"
Perhaps you choose not to remember the comments about Renney stifling the offensive talent of last year's Ranger team. And if the coach was replaced, the team would become a more offensive team that scored goals and played games that "didn't put me to sleep."

The fact is no player on last year's team is blowing up offensively this season.

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12-23-2009, 09:42 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by ThirdEye View Post
Man, you'd think Renney was the greatest coach and human being to ever grace this earth from reading some of the posts here.

The fact is he lost confidence in the team and himself, and that's why he was fired. What was Sather supposed to do? Sit there and feel sorry that Renney's team quit on him?

And how exactly did Renney do more with less? He lost something like 13 or the last 15 games before he was fired. You're telling me that's something to be proud of? The team the year prior to that with Jagr was at least as good as this one, so the whole point is moot.

And no, I don't think it's the same system also.
The Renney love really kicked in after he got fired and everybody felt guilty b/c he's such a "class act" and "nice guy". (these things are true, but the quotes are there b/c they've been repeated ad nauseum)

I like how all the renney apologists ignore this part:

"With Tom, we pretty much had a one-man forecheck with guys backing up a lot," said Dubinsky, who got into a bit of a fight on the ice with Brian Boyle during yesterday's optional practice. "Now, we're still committed to the two-man forecheck and our defense is still encouraged to jump into the play if it's there for them."

Ya know b/c a player wouldnt know the difference better than you guys saying "it's just renney's system" right?

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12-23-2009, 09:43 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by allstar3970 View Post
The Renney love really kicked in after he got fired and everybody felt guilty b/c he's such a "class act" and "nice guy". (these things are true, but the quotes are there b/c they've been repeated ad nauseum)

I like how all the renney apologists ignore this part:

"With Tom, we pretty much had a one-man forecheck with guys backing up a lot," said Dubinsky, who got into a bit of a fight on the ice with Brian Boyle during yesterday's optional practice. "Now, we're still committed to the two-man forecheck and our defense is still encouraged to jump into the play if it's there for them."

Ya know b/c a player wouldnt know the difference better than you guys saying "it's just renney's system" right?
Where is the offensive talent that Renney's system was holding back?

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12-23-2009, 09:45 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Too much is being made out of this.

Torts doesnt have the depth in players he needs to completely execute his system. So hes doing a very smart thing, and thats adjusting. He got into trouble in Tampa when he was too stuborn to adjust and it ultimately cost him his job.

Tortorella is starting to understand what kind of team he has and hes tweaking certain areas of the game to help his team win. He's not throwing up his arms and reverting to a 1-2-2 here.
i was wondering what got him the axe in tampa and thought it must have been something to do with his stubbornness. maybe he has learned his lesson and has become a better, more adaptable coach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The system is yielding the same results a defense-first team that has trouble scoring. That doesn't sound a lot like what Renney was killed for?
renney was "killed" for the same thing torts was beginning to be "killed" for before we won 3 in a row -- being a one trick pony. the difference is in what that trick was/is.

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12-23-2009, 09:46 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
You started with "Renney is more methodical and robotic", a clear statement about his persona. Not exactly rocket science to realize "dynamic" was referring to Tortorella in the same manner. Unless of course you're just back tracking now.

So what exactly is more "dynamic" about Tortorella?
No. the context of the discussion here is coaching styles, at least thats what Im speaking to.
His coaching approach/system was robotic and methodical. Sit on a one goal lead, play for OT/shootout...
Essentially trap hockey.

Tortorella preaches puck pursuit, forechecking, high conditioning, and player accountability.
Instinctual hockey.

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12-23-2009, 09:47 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by MustNeids22 View Post
renney was "killed" for the same thing torts was beginning to be "killed" for before we won 3 in a row
They lose tonight and the tunes that are being sung will change. The fact is they beat three bad teams barely.

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being a one trick pony. the difference is in what that trick was/is.
You lost me here. Not sure what you're trying to say.

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12-23-2009, 09:48 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
Sit on a one goal lead...
Essentially trap hockey.

Tortorella preaches puck pursuit, forechecking, high conditioning, and player accountability.
Instinctual hockey.
Guess you missed the Flyers game?

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12-23-2009, 09:50 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
No. the context of the discussion here is coaching styles, at least thats what Im speaking to.
His coaching approach/system was robotic and methodical. Sit on a one goal lead, play for OT/shootout...
Essentially trap hockey.

Tortorella preaches puck pursuit, forechecking, high conditioning, and player accountability.
Instinctual hockey.
All with identical results.. a 2-1 win or a 2-1 loss.

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12-23-2009, 09:51 AM
  #40
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I think Tortorella worked something out with his system that they do not do an all out attack all the time. Maybe it is the way other teams play against them. Hope they are still a puck possession team or that can get Totorella fired.

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12-23-2009, 09:51 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by MustNeids22 View Post
i was wondering what got him the axe in tampa and thought it must have been something to do with his stubbornness. maybe he has learned his lesson and has become a better, more adaptable coach.

He admitted to this when he came to the Rangers... He said he stuck with his original plan too long and he waited too long to make a change.

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12-23-2009, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
I think it's more a problem with the players and I think Tortorella's "defense first" has a different priority than Renney's. I think Renney was just trying to prevent goals from being scored on his team, while Tortorella is trying to get his team to take the puck back and transition to offense.

But like I said, I don't really think Renney's system was the biggest problem, though it did irritate me at times that there seemed to be no real plan for offense at all. He was still working with a mediocre roster and his firing was more because he lost the team, I think
I agree with Lev here.

Its the purpose of the system thats different.

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12-23-2009, 09:54 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by AXN View Post
I think Tortorella worked something out with his system that they do not do an all out attack all the time. Maybe it is the way other teams play against them. Hope they are still a puck possession team or that can get Totorella fired.
I agree,but they are still giving up too many scoring chances. And as far as puck possession, have to go back to early this decade to see a Ranger team chase the puck so much.

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12-23-2009, 10:02 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
No. the context of the discussion here is coaching styles, at least thats what Im speaking to.
His coaching approach/system was robotic and methodical. Sit on a one goal lead, play for OT/shootout...
Essentially trap hockey.

Tortorella preaches puck pursuit, forechecking, high conditioning, and player accountability.
Instinctual hockey.
So what does Renney's gum chewing have to do with coaching styles?

Torts preaches all of this stuff, but that doesn't mean anything. It's the results I care about and right now we're not faring any better than we did under Renney.

A "system" by definition is methodical. What's more creative about Tortorellas system? Is it more creative because of the forecheck? The conditioning? Or is it the fact we have a superstar winger in his prime, and a puck moving d-man who can run the PP and make incredible stretch passes to start the offense?

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12-23-2009, 10:05 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Where is the offensive talent that Renney's system was holding back?
You're talking about Callahan, Drury & Dubinsky...I think everyone accepts the fact that Callahan & Drury are not going to explode outside of Renney's system, and Dubinsky is too much of a work in progress to compare.

Seriously, why does every thread involving Tortorella need to degrade into a sad search for vindication for Renney? He's gone. He was fired for a very clear reason and it has nothing to do with what the fans thought. The players are the ones who hung him out to dry, not with their lack of talent, but with their lack of effort.

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12-23-2009, 10:11 AM
  #46
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Chop it up all you want with the Renney/Torts debate but i think we can all agree that this team is one injury away (to Gabby or Henrik) from being a lottery team.

And... We were the same when we had JJ. This team right now is about as healthy as one could hope for and still is mediocre at best.

Unless Slats can pull some magic out of his arse we are stuck with mediocrity..again

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12-23-2009, 10:13 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
So what does Renney's gum chewing have to do with coaching styles?

Torts preaches all of this stuff, but that doesn't mean anything. It's the results I care about and right now we're not faring any better than we did under Renney.

A "system" by definition is methodical. What's more creative about Tortorellas system? Is it more creative because of the forecheck? The conditioning? Or is it the fact we have a superstar winger in his prime, and a puck moving d-man who can run the PP and make incredible stretch passes to start the offense?

It should be pretty obvious by now to those who either liked/disliked Renney/Tortorella that personnel plays a
Part in this as well. We have a lot of underachieving top six forwards along with youth developing on a team
That saw 9 new faces, new system, coaches...

I may prefer Tortorella as a coach, but Im by no means absolving him of his mistakes and bad behavior.
Hes got to play the hand hes dealt right now if were going to maximize one of this teams greatest strengths:
Goaltending. We dont have the guns to play his signature style, so hes modified it.
No one style can win indefinitely in the NHL there has to be modifications.

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12-23-2009, 10:13 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
You're talking about Callahan, Drury & Dubinsky...I think everyone accepts the fact that Callahan & Drury are not going to explode outside of Renney's system, and Dubinsky is too much of a work in progress to compare.

Seriously, why does every thread involving Tortorella need to degrade into a sad search for vindication for Renney? He's gone. He was fired for a very clear reason and it has nothing to do with what the fans thought. The players are the ones who hung him out to dry, not with their lack of talent, but with their lack of effort.


Still think it was both.

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12-23-2009, 10:26 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
You're talking about Callahan, Drury & Dubinsky...I think everyone accepts the fact that Callahan & Drury are not going to explode outside of Renney's system, and Dubinsky is too much of a work in progress to compare.

Seriously, why does every thread involving Tortorella need to degrade into a sad search for vindication for Renney? He's gone. He was fired for a very clear reason and it has nothing to do with what the fans thought. The players are the ones who hung him out to dry, not with their lack of talent, but with their lack of effort.
Its natural to compare a current coach to a previous coach, especially with all the hypocrites running around that insisted a coaching change would unlock some sort of offensive potential.

But I agree, Renney is gone and Torts is here so the comparisons are getting stale...but not because its some sort of sad search for vindication...because Renney already has been vindicated. Safe is death is gone, replaced with a system concentrating a bit more on defense. And thats with the leagues leading goal scorer. If our previous coach had a dynamic talent like Gaborik, Im quite sure he would have opened things up a bit more too. In fact, he did when Jagr was a monster his first season here.

The personas keep coming up because an absurd amount of fans are entertained with Torts' huffing and puffing. But the painful truth is Renney and Tortorella are awfully similar from a results standpoint when you compare last season with this season. And Tortorella has more talent at his disposal, just like he did when Sather added Antropov, Avery, and Morris last season.

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12-23-2009, 10:27 AM
  #50
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Gross:

I think sometimes its a misconception on the team concept, Tortorella said. We want to forecheck. But when we talk about it as far as getting up the ice and forechecking and pressuring, people say they just want to go. That certainly hasnt been our philosophy from Day 1 because you have to play defense in this league. We have changed a little bit in the neutral zone where its kind of a hybrid right now. When we have chances to go, were going. When were not, were going to be a little bit smarter as far as filling the middle. That was probably a couple of weeks ago we changed into that. But I think weve gotten better defensively, too. When youre having problems scoring goals, you fall into that trap of just scoring goals and you forget about the details of playing defense. We have always talked about playing defense first and when we say defense first, it doesnt mean were falling back and playing in our end zone. Defense is when you dont have the puck, just being on the right side of the puck. Weve gotten better and better on the odd man rushes and thats just being cognizant of being on the right side of the puck.

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