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Torts' Rangers revert to Renney style?

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Old
12-23-2009, 11:21 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiSnacks17 View Post
Some people believe that any sort of defensive hockey is "Renney hockey." Yet, I don't remember a Renney system which employeed 2 forecheckers. I also don't quite see the whole "5 men in the picture" non-sense which was preached with Renney. I also still see breakaways, which were a rarity under Renney.
Exactly. Like i mentioned earlier (to which i received an irrelevant response) Dubinsky pretty much laid out the differences (2 forecheckers, more leeway for the d-men to pinch) but it was ignored by the people who STILL can't get over nice guy renney losing his job. That was what 10 months ago? let it go people.

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12-23-2009, 11:23 AM
  #77
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Not really "Tom Renney" hockey. Torts is still encouraging the defense to jump up on the rush when given the chance, and wants a two-mean forecheck. In a sense he's just adjusting to the low amount of skill our team has, which is not a bad idea.

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12-23-2009, 11:24 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by HAPPY HOUR View Post
[/B]

Still think it was both.
I don't. We were a competitive team for the first half of the year, in spite of the lack of talent. Many of our wins came in OT and the SO. That speaks to the teams competitive level. Things took an abrupt turn around the 50 game mark. That's when the effort changed, and we saw the 10-2 loss to Dallas, without any kind of bounce-back.

If we would have continued putting in a solid effort and playing .500 hockey after our strong start, we would have made the playoffs (even without Antropov, Avery & Morris) and Renney would most likely would still be coach today. Instead, the players quit competing in the system that allowed their limited talent to play .500 hockey, and Renney got canned.

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12-23-2009, 11:24 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by King Henrik 30 View Post
Not really "Tom Renney" hockey. Torts is still encouraging the defense to jump up on the rush when given the chance, and wants a two-mean forecheck. In a sense he's just adjusting to the low amount of skill our team has, which is not a bad idea.
1) He has defensemen who can actually contribute offensively.

2) Over the last three wins, I have seen a lot less of defensemen joining the rush.

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12-23-2009, 11:30 AM
  #80
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Dubinsky's quote pretty much refutes that Torts is playing Renney's system... Renney relied on the 1-2-2 forecheck and Torts employs the 2-1-2, as Dubinsky clarified.

As for the "Torts is doing less with more" argument... I'm just not so sure how true this as the teams were constructed so differently. There was no "superstar forward" like Gaborik on last year's team, it was composed of mostly secondary scorers, none of whom scored more than 24 goals. On this year's team, there is a severe dropoff in talent after Gaborik.

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12-23-2009, 11:30 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Gomez is certainly tearing it up in Montreal's uptempo system. Not to mention Gomez matched his 2nd highest point total his first season in NY.

I don't see any sort of logic in saying Renney "never gave them a chance" when both players put up career averages in his system.
right they put up averages... which means that Renney made them no better or worse. In fact some rightly point out that the looked worse for us than in any other uniform (well except Gomer for this year). And Gomez would still be our best center if he were on the team today. So Renney did have more to work with.

And Drury circa 07-08 would also be our best center if placed on this team.

So again Renney would have more to work with (which is why they played better). And that season they underachieved, and were humiliated in the PO's in which Renney was clearly outcoached.

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12-23-2009, 11:30 AM
  #82
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I''m just laughing at all the comments here that "Renney was all defense all the time" and stiff and inflexible. Does anyone know anything about Tom Renney before he came to NY? When coaching the national team, in Juniors and in Vancouver, he certainly was not "all defense all the time." Not even close! Do your homework guys.

Renney's "system" was a direct result of him tailoring a strategy to the talent on the roster. It's as simple as that. I know it's fun to say Tortorella is dynamic and all that nonsense, while Renney was robotic or whatever, but it's simply a double standard. Because, again, Renney wasn't this defensive wizard with a hard and fast system until spending some time with this organization.

It's fine to not like Renney and to prefer Tortorella, but at least know what you're talking about with Renney.

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12-23-2009, 11:34 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
1) He has defensemen who can actually contribute offensively.

2) Over the last three wins, I have seen a lot less of defensemen joining the rush.
I know the defense has been joining the rush lately, but I was just trying to point out what was different from this "new style" to the system Renney used during his tenure in NY.

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12-23-2009, 11:39 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by allstar3970 View Post
Exactly. Like i mentioned earlier (to which i received an irrelevant response) Dubinsky pretty much laid out the differences (2 forecheckers, more leeway for the d-men to pinch) but it was ignored by the people who STILL can't get over nice guy renney losing his job. That was what 10 months ago? let it go people.
You're going to get ignored when you say things like this. If you can't make a point without slinging an insult, there's no sense in talking to you.

Renney being a nice guy has never had to do with the fact that he was saddled with a sub-par roster that quit on him because they thought they were capable of more offense. The fact of the matter is that the core of that group is still here and is still struggling with the same issues despite the fact that we've replaced Gomez with Gaborik and Mara/Kalinin with Gilroy/Del Zotto.

How many "I told you it was Renney!!" posts were there to start the season when we were scoring 4 goals per game? Now that the offense has dried up, those same people are saying "Oh no, it's not Torts. It's the roster!" Sound familiar? It should, because it's the exact same thing many of us have been saying for the last 3 years.

Tortorella is "adapting" while Renney was "boring and stifling". Yet Tortorella is moving the team's system in the same direction that Renney did. If the 2-1-2 doesn't work, what do you think comes next? If the defense continues to get caught pinching, resulting in odd-man rushes and goals against, what is he going to tell the defense to do?

I could care less about what Dubinsky said. The fact of the matter is the team is in the same situation it was last season: They can't score. The system is irrelevant if the results are the same.

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12-23-2009, 11:43 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
You're going to get ignored when you say things like this. If you can't make a point without slinging an insult, there's no sense in talking to you.

Renney being a nice guy has never had to do with the fact that he was saddled with a sub-par roster that quit on him because they thought they were capable of more offense. The fact of the matter is that the core of that group is still here and is still struggling with the same issues despite the fact that we've replaced Gomez with Gaborik and Mara/Kalinin with Gilroy/Del Zotto.

How many "I told you it was Renney!!" posts were there to start the season when we were scoring 4 goals per game? Now that the offense has dried up, those same people are saying "Oh no, it's not Torts. It's the roster!" Sound familiar? It should, because it's the exact same thing many of us have been saying for the last 3 years.

Tortorella is "adapting" while Renney was "boring and stifling". Yet Tortorella is moving the team's system in the same direction that Renney did. If the 2-1-2 doesn't work, what do you think comes next? If the defense continues to get caught pinching, resulting in odd-man rushes and goals against, what is he going to tell the defense to do?

I could care less about what Dubinsky said. The fact of the matter is the team is in the same situation it was last season: They can't score. The system is irrelevant if the results are the same.

3-1-1? 4-1? 5-0? 6 and no goalie?

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12-23-2009, 11:49 AM
  #86
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I was not a huge fan of Renney, but I have to say that I think last year Renney had a more flawed team than the one Torts has now (primary difference being Gaborik's offense and DZ as the PP QB). So, based on that, I am not thrilled with the results so far.

What I do like is that Torts has adjusted playing time based on performance rather than veteran status or contract size. He has called out guys and made them accountable. He is not afraid to play young guys. I do think the system is more up tempo, with a harder forecheck than what Renney had in place.

Honestly, I don't see any real similarities between Renney and Tortorella, except that Renney's results at the end of his tenure were poor and Torts' results now are poor... but, of course, in the NHL all that matters is results. You don't get style points.

I hold out hope that things will turn around.

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12-23-2009, 11:56 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
right they put up averages... which means that Renney made them no better or worse. In fact some rightly point out that the looked worse for us than in any other uniform (well except Gomer for this year). And Gomez would still be our best center if he were on the team today. So Renney did have more to work with.
I'm not sure how you can put up the same numbers you always have while looking worse than you have on any other roster.

How is Torts is worse off with Gaborik/Kotalik/Prospal/MDZ/Gilroy than Renney was with Zherdev/Gomez/Naslund/Mara/Kalinin?

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And Drury circa 07-08 would also be our best center if placed on this team.
So Renney was able to get more out of Drury than Tortorella can? All that proves is Renney was able to maximize the production of an average forward, while Torts has failed to do so.

I get it, the guy is a year older than he was last season, but give me a break. A good coach doesn't take a PP producer like Drury off the freaking PP and wonder why he isn't scoring goals.

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So again Renney would have more to work with (which is why they played better). And that season they underachieved, and were humiliated in the PO's in which Renney was clearly outcoached.
Getting yourself suspended from a potential series clincher? Blowing a 3-1 series lead? That's not being out coached?

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12-23-2009, 11:57 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Gaborik spent his career prior to this season playing in an intense defense first system, and still managed to put up big points. Tom Renney played the cards he was given, especially last season. He had NO elite talent on his team. He didn't even have a first liner. Not one legit first line player. So he played stifling defense. What else was he supposed to do? Rely on **** for brains Gomez?
coulda, shoulda, woulda....still invalid. You can't make assumptions only deal with what happened or be delusional.

Let's talk with what has really happened. Renney had Jagr and he had the same exact defensive system. The only diff is that Jagr played how he wanted no matter what. Jagr and Pearn had arguments of how things should run.


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12-23-2009, 11:57 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
You're going to get ignored when you say things like this. If you can't make a point without slinging an insult, there's no sense in talking to you.

Renney being a nice guy has never had to do with the fact that he was saddled with a sub-par roster that quit on him because they thought they were capable of more offense. The fact of the matter is that the core of that group is still here and is still struggling with the same issues despite the fact that we've replaced Gomez with Gaborik and Mara/Kalinin with Gilroy/Del Zotto.

How many "I told you it was Renney!!" posts were there to start the season when we were scoring 4 goals per game? Now that the offense has dried up, those same people are saying "Oh no, it's not Torts. It's the roster!" Sound familiar? It should, because it's the exact same thing many of us have been saying for the last 3 years.

Tortorella is "adapting" while Renney was "boring and stifling". Yet Tortorella is moving the team's system in the same direction that Renney did. If the 2-1-2 doesn't work, what do you think comes next? If the defense continues to get caught pinching, resulting in odd-man rushes and goals against, what is he going to tell the defense to do?

I could care less about what Dubinsky said. The fact of the matter is the team is in the same situation it was last season: They can't score. The system is irrelevant if the results are the same.
To get it out of the way, i dont know how what i typed could be called "slinging insults" unless we're really sensitive around here.

Again, any semblance of focus on defense is immediately skewed as moving back to Renney hockey. You're making your point based on two jumps in logic required: 1) if this (non-renney) system doesnt work, they will go straight on to Renney's system 2) That Dubinsky somehow knows less about what he's playing in than we do.

You mention the "IT WAS RENNEY" posts, how is this different than the renney love threads that ensue everytime the team missteps under torts?

Regardless of all this, we're spending an awful lot of time talking about an Oilers assistant coach.

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12-23-2009, 11:58 AM
  #90
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This certainly is an interesting debate.

But lets go back to the title of the article

"Tort's Rangers revert to Renney style"

If you are talking about systems then its obvious that Tortorella doesnt play the same system as Renney did. They are night and day in their theory of the game, no matter how many adjustments they make.

If its purely about an adjustment to the approach you take into a particular game or stretch of games and you want to call that a "style" then fine, Torts has adjusted the team to be more defensively conscious. But it doesn't mean he has "reverted" - meaning to return to a former condition or practice - to Renney hockey IMO.

How you perceive this argument is a big part of what side you lie on here.

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12-23-2009, 11:59 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The system is yielding the same results a defense-first team that has trouble scoring. That doesn't sound a lot like what Renney was killed for?
It's still not a defense first team, it''s just going to run the same offensive system that 90% of the other teams in the NHL are running, and there is nothing wrong with that, this team isn't ready for 3-2 and doesn't have the skill for it either.

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12-23-2009, 12:00 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
umm but they signed Gomez and Drury in the middle, and he never gave them any chance in an uptempo system, which everybody (including you i believe) were wanting him to do during their first year here.

or how about Renney overplaying shanny, which everybody was saying (and was completely true).

or his misuse of Prucha and Dawes (who is playing very solidly).

or his non ability to make changes in game, or overplay his 4th line.

or do you just forget about all the massive complaints that went on for the final 3 years of this team, including some of which i believe you joined in on.


Now I'm not saying that Torts is perfect (far from it). But he is also hampered with three horrible contracts left over from Renneyville. Also one of the them is a broken down player (Capt cash). he has 2 rookie dmen on the blueline, and two others who have less than 3 years experience (renney never had a blueline this young). he also has one of the youngest teams in the league (Renney tended to be more vet heavy).

so I actually think that Torts has less to deal with than Renney, but this team is oozing with potential. IMO Torts should not be criticized that much until the 2011 season. which will be a defining season, b/c he has to prove that he can get these kids playing like men. That does not happen overnight. But he is showing more gall than Renney in actually putting kids out there in the thick of battle, and in important situations.
I seem to remember Dan Girardi, Marc Staal, Ryan Callahan, Brandon Dubinsky, Lauri Korpikoski, Fedor Tyutin and, oh, Henrik Lundqvist breaking into the lineup under Tom Renney, playing hige roles and developing into very good players.

His inability to make changes in game? I think with some of the performances we've seen from this team this season, one could VERY easily make the same criticism of John Tortorella. Torts has been far from a tactical mastermind in altering his game plans this season.

Renney overplayed the fourth line? I've been making the point that Torts under-plays entire lines and pairings during the course of the game, for seemingly no reason at times. Especially the rookies...which was one of your criticisms of Renney, right?

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Originally Posted by allstar3970 View Post
To get it out of the way, i dont know how what i typed could be called "slinging insults" unless we're really sensitive around here.

Again, any semblance of focus on defense is immediately skewed as moving back to Renney hockey. You're making your point based on two jumps in logic required: 1) if this (non-renney) system doesnt work, they will go straight on to Renney's system 2) That Dubinsky somehow knows less about what he's playing in than we do.

You mention the "IT WAS RENNEY" posts, how is this different than the renney love threads that ensue everytime the team missteps under torts?

Regardless of all this, we're spending an awful lot of time talking about an Oilers assistant coach.
Could you direct me to the Renney love threads? I seem to have missed them.

Talk about a straw man.

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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
This certainly is an interesting debate.

But lets go back to the title of the article

"Tort's Rangers revert to Renney style"

If you are talking about systems then its obvious that Tortorella doesnt play the same system as Renney did. They are night and day in their theory of the game, no matter how many adjustments they make.

If its purely about an adjustment to the approach you take into a particular game or stretch of games and you want to call that a "style" then fine, Torts has adjusted the team to be more defensively conscious. But it doesn't mean he has "reverted" - meaning to return to a former condition or practice - to Renney hockey IMO.

How you perceive this argument is a big part of what side you lie on here.
Ding ding ding! HBNYC wins. I didn't interperet the article as saying they're playing the same system. I thought it was pretty clear that Brooks is saying they're playing with a similar mindset, i.e. we're not going to win if we're trying to score 5 goals every night and don't focus on solid defense.

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12-23-2009, 12:08 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I'm not sure how you can put up the same numbers you always have while looking worse than you have on any other roster.

How is Torts is worse off with Gaborik/Kotalik/Prospal/MDZ/Gilroy than Renney was with Zherdev/Gomez/Naslund/Mara/Kalinin?
Wasn't just talking about last year. i was talking about all 4 Renney teams. his first 3 years he had more to work with than Torts does.

last year... not so much.

Although defensively Mara and kalinin are much better than MDZ/gilroy. Offensively its the oppossite. And mara had some grit to his game.

And Gomez/Nazzy is about equal to Kots (who is worthless) and Prospal. Gaborik obviously is miles ahead of Zherdev and anybody else.

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So Renney was able to get more out of Drury than Tortorella can? All that proves is Renney was able to maximize the production of an average forward, while Torts has failed to do so.

I get it, the guy is a year older than he was last season, but give me a break. A good coach doesn't take a PP producer like Drury off the freaking PP and wonder why he isn't scoring goals.
No what I am saying is that now Drury's body and age is catching up to him and his body is physically breaking down. That's not Torts' fault. I don't think any coach could get much more out of Drury. I really feel like Drury's career is basically over, and he is nothing more than a mediocre 3rd liner.

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Getting yourself suspended from a potential series clincher? Blowing a 3-1 series lead? That's not being out coached?
We in no way were a superior team. Many people thought we would be eliminated in 5 games. We were lucky to get to 7 games. Renney would not have faired any better at all and I don't know if he would have gotten us to 7 games.

Getting suspended was retarded, and was an awful awful move by him. And he definately hurt the team.

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12-23-2009, 12:19 PM
  #94
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I still think there's an argument to be made that no matter what system this team employs, you can't mask the lack of talent on this roster and this team will always struggle to win games.

Even though they've supposedly "tightened up" defensively, the Rangers have surrendered 33 or more SOG in the past 3 games. They get pinned in their zone and struggle to clear the puck. What it really comes down to is Lundqvist bailing out the team as he has so many times before.

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12-23-2009, 12:20 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...p09ImJ5h5e6smJ

Whatever happened to Safe Is Death?

Torts sounds like Roger Neilson and Colin Campbell.
I do like the name The Great Gabby. Just like The Great Gatsby, but greater.

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12-23-2009, 12:25 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by allstar3970 View Post
To get it out of the way, i dont know how what i typed could be called "slinging insults" unless we're really sensitive around here.
Demeaning someone's stance on a subject is insulting. If I said "You're just a Torts ass-kisser," would you really want to discuss that with me?

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Again, any semblance of focus on defense is immediately skewed as moving back to Renney hockey. You're making your point based on two jumps in logic required: 1) if this (non-renney) system doesnt work, they will go straight on to Renney's system 2) That Dubinsky somehow knows less about what he's playing in than we do.
Well:

1) That is the next logical progression. What do you think happens if this team still can't score goals and is playing lousy defense? That they're going to go back to his original strategy? No, it's a 1-2-2. It's not some stretch of my imagination where a dozen pieces have to fall magically inline.

2) Again, I said I didn't care about the system, so I don't have any reason to listen to Dubinsky. I care about the result.

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You mention the "IT WAS RENNEY" posts, how is this different than the renney love threads that ensue everytime the team missteps under torts?
I've seen one "Renney love thread". I've seen a few anti-Tortorella threads, but there are far more people rushing to his defense than there are starting the threads.

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Regardless of all this, we're spending an awful lot of time talking about an Oilers assistant coach.
So don't talk about it. Why come into a thread that's clearly geared towards Renney/Tortorella comparison and then complain about the content?

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12-23-2009, 12:31 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
Wasn't just talking about last year. i was talking about all 4 Renney teams. his first 3 years he had more to work with than Torts does.

last year... not so much.
Then what's the point? Renney was fired because the team stopped winning, not because he made the playoffs 3 years in a row with mediocre teams.

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Although defensively Mara and kalinin are much better than MDZ/gilroy. Offensively its the oppossite. And mara had some grit to his game.
I wouldn't say they're "much" better defensively. I liked Mara, but he wasn't as gritty as people liked to think he was.

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And Gomez/Nazzy is about equal to Kots (who is worthless) and Prospal. Gaborik obviously is miles ahead of Zherdev and anybody else.
Eh, I dunno about that. Prospal has chemistry with Gaborik, Gomez had no chemistry with anyone, save for maybe Callahan. Naslund and Kotalik is a wash I guess.

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No what I am saying is that now Drury's body and age is catching up to him and his body is physically breaking down. That's not Torts' fault. I don't think any coach could get much more out of Drury. I really feel like Drury's career is basically over, and he is nothing more than a mediocre 3rd liner.
I see. But to that my point about misusing him still applies. Also, I've never seen someone take such a drastic dip in production over the course of 6 months. Drury isn't any slower than he was last year and his skills are still the same. I hardly think his career is over.

Then again, I'm just his lone fan.

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We in no way were a superior team. Many people thought we would be eliminated in 5 games. We were lucky to get to 7 games. Renney would not have faired any better at all and I don't know if he would have gotten us to 7 games.
I dunno, it's a lot of speculation. I think it's unfair to judge Renney's potential outcome in the playoffs given the circumstances in which he was let go.

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Getting suspended was retarded, and was an awful awful move by him. And he definately hurt the team.
Glad we can agree on that.

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12-23-2009, 12:47 PM
  #98
Bluenote13
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Splitting hairs. The results have been similar.
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The system is yielding the same results a defense-first team that has trouble scoring. That doesn't sound a lot like what Renney was killed for?
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
What? You like Tortorella's persona better than Renney, hence he's the better option? This is a hockey team, not a reality show. We're looking for wins, not sound bytes.



My point exactly. Tortorella is achieving less with more.
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1) He has defensemen who can actually contribute offensively.

2) Over the last three wins, I have seen a lot less of defensemen joining the rush.
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I''m just laughing at all the comments here that "Renney was all defense all the time" and stiff and inflexible. Does anyone know anything about Tom Renney before he came to NY? When coaching the national team, in Juniors and in Vancouver, he certainly was not "all defense all the time." Not even close! Do your homework guys.

Renney's "system" was a direct result of him tailoring a strategy to the talent on the roster. It's as simple as that. I know it's fun to say Tortorella is dynamic and all that nonsense, while Renney was robotic or whatever, but it's simply a double standard. Because, again, Renney wasn't this defensive wizard with a hard and fast system until spending some time with this organization.

It's fine to not like Renney and to prefer Tortorella, but at least know what you're talking about with Renney.
Bravo

The Vets continue to lead around here, and ya know why? They're not biased to one thing or the other. You can see that if you read this board over the years as much as I have.

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Old
12-23-2009, 12:54 PM
  #99
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[QUOTE=Bleed Ranger Blue;22813449]Yea, poor Torts, it must be so difficult with the leading goal scorer in the NHL at his disposal. And yet, this team still only scores 2 goals a game.

Imagine if he had to depend on two ****heads like Gomez and Zherdev instead of Gaborik and Prospal?[/QUOTE]

Torts is light years ahead of Renney already, based on these four players. He picked Prospal and Gaborik, unless you want to give Sather all of the credit. That would sure be unusual around here!

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Old
12-23-2009, 01:09 PM
  #100
NikC
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Bravo

The Vets continue to lead around here, and ya know why? They're not biased to one thing or the other. You can see that if you read this board over the years as much as I have.
read the whole post, and you'll find ample examples of those who hold
a difference in opinion being just as factual and reasonable.

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