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Old
12-23-2009, 11:51 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I disagree. Value wise it's atrocious.

Look at the returns for impending UFAs Forsberg and Hossa.

Giroux is better than any of the players dealt for those two and we're supposed to give up Carter and Parent as well? That's highway robbery. I know we have to deal someone to make cap space, but we shouldn't overpay Atlanta just do to that.

If we were to bring on a hefty contract as Kovy will command then we absolutely have to get rid of Briere's albatross contract.
Playing devil's advocate:

Forsberg was broke and at the very tail end of his career. Hossa was 30 and not as good, in my opinion, as Kovy.

Giroux had a decent month sandwiched between two of mediocrity and has proved nothing in this league. Literally nothing. We all love him but there's no reason other GMs are going to offer a lot for him right now.

Parent will never have a great deal of value due to the nature of his game. What's he done when not paired with a perennial all-star or first ballot HOFer? Been a third pairing guy?

Carter is having a horrible year considering expectations and, really, is no where near Kovalchuk in terms of skill. Anyone on this board would trade him 1 for 1 without even thinking twice.

Also, there is no way Kovy is traded without an extension in place. At least not traded for anything like the package that's being discussed right now.

But the biggest aspect of this trade is that it doesn't work under the cap.

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12-23-2009, 11:57 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by tripler0425 View Post
I just read a report on espn and it says that the Flyers recently offered Jeff Carter, Giroux and Parent for Kovalchuk. What does everyone feel about that offer?
no

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripler0425 View Post
It's rumored he wants a 10-year deal worth $11.3 million a season -- the maximum allowable contract in accordance with the collective bargaining agreemenet

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12-23-2009, 12:01 PM
  #28
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If he wants a cap hit of over 9M he's going to find the number of willing teams to be pretty small. Though, there are a few teams that will do something insane to get him. But if he is looking at more than two or three years at league max then he's insane.

That being said, in a cap free world I give him 12 million easy.

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12-23-2009, 12:05 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
If he wants a cap hit of over 9M he's going to find the number of willing teams to be pretty small. Though, there are a few teams that will do something insane to get him. But if he is looking at more than two or three years at league max then he's insane.

That being said, in a cap free world I give him 12 million easy.
Absolutely, but we need to have other players too. Good player will not get paid what their worth in the cap sysytem

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12-23-2009, 12:09 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripler0425 View Post
I just read a report on espn and it says that the Flyers recently offered Jeff Carter, Giroux and Parent for Kovalchuk. What does everyone feel about that offer?
I am skeptical that it is real.

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12-23-2009, 12:12 PM
  #31
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I'd love to have Kovy here. In a perfect world he wouldn't cost 11mil per season and we could give up Carter & Hartnell (and possibly a bottom pairing defenseman)for him.....however that is never going to happen.

Kovalchuk's ability to put the puck in the net exceeds everyone on our team. He's a true sniper with a lethal shot. I'm sure if you looked at his shooting percentage (not just shots on goal, but shots taken versus goals scored) against anyone on the flyers, I'd have to think he'd be 5 times more likely to score.

Wish we could figure out a way to grab him that makes sense, but I can't think of any way it'd happen.

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12-23-2009, 12:14 PM
  #32
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For $11.3 million, remember 1/5 of your max salary cap, he should be beating Gretzky's career scoring record in a single season, and magical stars would have to shoot out his ass every time he scored. Otherwise, holy mother of overpayment, Batman!

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12-23-2009, 12:19 PM
  #33
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1) This team under no circumstances should be looking to trade Giroux or JVR. They are right on pace production wise with what should be expected of them, and within a year or two the play we get out of them with their low cap hit is crucial.

2) I wouldn't pay anyone 11+ million a season in this league. That would just destroy our cap number. And please, no 15 year contracts.

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12-23-2009, 12:24 PM
  #34
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the Flyers would need multiple conditional draft picks if they were to trade for Kovalchuk hindging on him resiging a multi year deal.

Also there is no way they offer Carter and Giroux. I have no problem parting with Parent.

if he thinks hes worth 11.3 million, I hope he likes playing in Siberia of the KHL.

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12-23-2009, 12:27 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
For $11.3 million, remember 1/5 of your max salary cap, he should be beating Gretzky's career scoring record in a single season, and magical stars would have to shoot out his ass every time he scored. Otherwise, holy mother of overpayment, Batman!
How you glimpsed into Bettman's dreams? Switch Kovy to Crosby and that's pretty much it.

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12-23-2009, 12:29 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
How you glimpsed into Bettman's dreams? Switch Kovy to Crosby and that's pretty much it.
No you got it backwards. Bettman puts things IN Crosby. Cause Crosby's a *****.

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12-23-2009, 12:42 PM
  #37
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if he does this holmgren will be shot. Better think twice about this deal, some of these philadelphia streets arent too friendly

well actually maybe no

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12-23-2009, 12:47 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Jray42 View Post
if he does this holmgren will be shot. Better think twice about this deal, some of these philadelphia streets arent too friendly

well actually maybe no
Unfortunately most of those people don't know the Flyers exist...I have literally been asked what jersey I was wearing by city-folk on the Broad Street Line...like COME ON people...

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12-23-2009, 01:02 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
And how exactly do you manage to pay Kovy what he wants within the salary structure of this team?

I've seen lotsa people who want Kovalchuk, and I have yet to see anyone show me how it makes sense for this team, both now and in the future. All I've seen is "Kovalchuk is great we will win and stuff" as the reasoning we should mortgage even more of our future than we already have.

Brilliant.
That's the GM's job. It's not impossible. It's tough but it could be done. He's not going to get more than Ovechkin regardless of where he signs (or at least I would be shocked if he does) so making a few moves somewhere to add a guy like Kovalchuk isn't out of the question. I don't know what moves they would be (Gagne, Hartnell, Briere, etc) but moving a bigger contract would make room for him. I know now you are gonna hit me with the NTC stuff, but that doesn't mean that they CAN'T be traded. It makes it harder, but it's not unheard of to trade a guy with a NTC.

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12-23-2009, 01:02 PM
  #40
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There are two things that everyone needs to realize that would explain why this deal would never happen:

1) Kovalchuk is Russian
2) Ed Snider thinks the cold war is still on going

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12-23-2009, 01:10 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
There are two things that everyone needs to realize that would explain why this deal would never happen:

1) Kovalchuk is Russian
2) Ed Snider thinks the cold war is still on going
I bet he has an awesome basement bunker.

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12-23-2009, 01:10 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Playing devil's advocate:

Forsberg was broke and at the very tail end of his career. Hossa was 30 and not as good, in my opinion, as Kovy.

Giroux had a decent month sandwiched between two of mediocrity and has proved nothing in this league. Literally nothing. We all love him but there's no reason other GMs are going to offer a lot for him right now.

Parent will never have a great deal of value due to the nature of his game. What's he done when not paired with a perennial all-star or first ballot HOFer? Been a third pairing guy?

Carter is having a horrible year considering expectations and, really, is no where near Kovalchuk in terms of skill. Anyone on this board would trade him 1 for 1 without even thinking twice.

Also, there is no way Kovy is traded without an extension in place. At least not traded for anything like the package that's being discussed right now.

But the biggest aspect of this trade is that it doesn't work under the cap.
I think it's fair to imply Kovalchuk's is value is greater than theirs was, but is it *that* much greater? I don't think so. Teams don't want to risk that much for an impending UFA. Also, contending teams do not want to gut their roster of significant pieces to add Kovalchuk, they want him in addition to what they have. I feel Holmgren would be bidding against himself if he offered that much.

I don't disagree with anything you said our three players, but the problem I have is selling low on those three which is what we'd be doing at this point. Kovalchuk is unquestionably better than all three of them, but what about the long term? Is Kovalchuk's value greater than the future value of these three players? Again, I don't think so. Carter is having a down year when the whole entire team is having a down year, but I don't believe last year was some fluke. I believe he can be a PPG player with the ability to score 40+ goals while playing a solid defense. I think Giroux can also be a PPG player that scores around 30+ while playing a solid defense. Parent can be top 4 defensive defenseman. Maybe I am overrating our players or underrating Kovy, but I don't want to give up two future first liners and a solid dman for him and certainly not if he is an impending UFA.

Really the last thing we need is another potential franchise killing contract. Kovy is amazing, but is he really going to be worth a 10+ year deal for $ 8+ million a year and a NMC? In the short term he will probably be worth it, but long term? Probably not. The problem with this franchise is they never weigh the long term consequences of their deals and making this deal would be another short sighted move that would kill them in the long run.

If we were going to go for Kovy then I think the wisest way to go about it to see if Atlanta has any interest in Briere and if he'd waived to go there. If not then I'd attempt to move him anywhere for anything that doesn't see us getting another albatross salary in return. Then I'd build a package for Kovy centered around Hartnell and include the pieces we'd receive for Briere if they have any value. I think Hartnell is the best they could get for an impending UFA. He's certainly better than Forsberg and Hossa returned in their deals. Of course doing such a move is difficult because of Briere's awful contract and the NMC/NTCs involved.

I just think the absolute dumbest thing this organization could do is move Carter (or Richards) for an impending UFA.

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Old
12-23-2009, 01:12 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That's the GM's job. It's not impossible.
And what has Homer done in regards to the cap to suggest that he could make it work?

I ask again, beyond the obvious "Kovalchuk is great and scores goals" mantra, how does adding him suddenly fix this teams problems? In the same manner that adding Pronger fixed our problems? The same manner that Laviolette has fixed our problems? "We are having problems scoring goals, Kovy scores goals, problem solved". If only it were that simple.

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12-23-2009, 01:15 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I just think the absolute dumbest thing this organization could do is move Carter (or Richards) for an impending UFA.
Your points are good. Though, Kovy won't warrant a huge package unless he already has an extension worked out. Otherwise Atlanta will have to settle for a lot less.

To be honest, this team needs a guy like career year Mike Peca or John Madden or, well, Primeau a lot more than a sniper, despite the goal drought.

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12-23-2009, 01:18 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
I bet he has an awesome basement bunker.
he probably watches the Flyers/Russian game on a nightly basis and still thinks that the Russians are still a communist country

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12-23-2009, 01:18 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
he probably watches the Flyers/Russian game on a nightly basis and still thinks that the Russians are still a communist country
To be fair, Putin does have that old school attitude.

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12-23-2009, 01:19 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
There are two things that everyone needs to realize that would explain why this deal would never happen:

1) Kovalchuk is Russian
2) Ed Snider thinks the cold war is still on going
This ^

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12-23-2009, 01:25 PM
  #48
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I love Kovalchuk, but theres no f'ing way I give him the max contract, plus I'd have a huge problem with giving up Giroux.

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12-23-2009, 01:26 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Your points are good. Though, Kovy won't warrant a huge package unless he already has an extension worked out. Otherwise Atlanta will have to settle for a lot less.

To be honest, this team needs a guy like career year Mike Peca or John Madden or, well, Primeau a lot more than a sniper, despite the goal drought.
Thanks. You are right, he definitely isn't going to warrant such a package without an extension.

I think you are right about what they need. Kovy would be nice, but they don't need him to be good. They can certainly use a character guy having a great year and willing to play his ass off for this team. I think at this point their struggles are mostly mental and they just need something to inject some confidence into the team and confidence in each other. It doesn't need to be a blockbuster move to shake them up.

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12-23-2009, 01:26 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
And what has Homer done in regards to the cap to suggest that he could make it work?
I would say adding Emery, Boucher and Pyorala was a start. Obviously Emery is hurt now so that helps no one, but he is showing that he can make some good cap related moves. He's not going to move a guy like Briere, Gagne, etc, when the team is winning. They have only been losing for a few weeks and dudes have been injured. Now that the problem is clear that this team is not, at least at the moment, going to do anything, a change needs to be made. He's not going to move a big contract guy before a move for Kovalchuk is in place because that would be a little bit of jumping the gun. I'm not saying this move is a lock to win a Stanley Cup or that the move will ever even really happen. I'm just saying if it did, the team would be better off than it is now.

Quote:
I ask again, beyond the obvious "Kovalchuk is great and scores goals" mantra, how does adding him suddenly fix this teams problems? In the same manner that adding Pronger fixed our problems? The same manner that Laviolette has fixed our problems? "We are having problems scoring goals, Kovy scores goals, problem solved". If only it were that simple.
First of all, getting a 40-50 goal scorer on the team will definitely turn the team around, even if only a little. Carter scored 40+ last year, but he is not yet (as he is showing this season) a 40 goal scorer. He may be a consistent 40+ goal guy at some point, but he isn't now. Kovalchuk is better than Carter is now, and likely will ever be. I said basically the same thing in an earlier post. Kovalchuk is better than Carter. Giroux will be good but at this point pretty much is an average 3rd liner. Parent is expendable because the Flyers have a lot of depth in the system at D and he really is nothing special anyway. That doesn't guarantee anything, I know, but I would like this teams chances better with Kovalchuk on the team. I don't have all the X's and O's as to why, when, where, and how this trade would work, but that is why I am not the GM. I haven't seen you really talking about why the trade wouldn't work except that saying that you haven't heard anyone say why it would work. I would love to see Kovalchuk in a Flyers jersey and I don't see why having a 40-50 goal scorer on the team would NOT help this team, even at the expense of Carter, Giroux, and Parent.

NOTE: I have said that I wouldn't want to trade Carter or Giroux (let alone both) for anyone unless they were of Kovalchuk's caliber. I think Carter and Giroux are awesome and am a big fan of them, but you can't really sit there and say that Carter or Giroux is or will be better than Kovalchuk and actually believe it.

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