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Old
12-13-2009, 10:32 AM
  #26
DeadPhish5858
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Bring in Hextall!

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12-21-2009, 09:35 PM
  #27
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What's Mike Keenan doing these days?

Since everyone here seems to think this team can only be managed by the teams former players, why no consider bringing back one of their best ex-coaches to run the show.
I'm sure Mike K. wouldn't sit around watching this group of hung-over party boys tank the season like they have been.

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Old
12-21-2009, 09:45 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
We seem to be drafting better, especially in later rounds.

He's put together an incredible team that appears to have been underachieving because of Stevens.

He has his loyalties, but the Stevens situation proves he's not afraid to pull the trigger to win.

He is extremely solid at evaluating talent that can be useful to our team in free agency/via trade.

His one knock is cap management, but we haven't really had to sell our souls for winning just yet.

If anyone should be complaining about a supposed "lack of a prospect pool" it should be me, and I have absolutely no problem with the current pool or the moves he's made (even if they depleted our "future").

If he ends up the next scapegoat, I quit you all. Stevens deserved it. Holmgren does not.
Not sure how I missed this thread....Very well said Chris, not sure I agree 100% but I wouldnt fire him just yet.

We all agree he hasnt been the best at cap management, but they can get someone in to work with him on that...However, as far as drafting goes, who has he or this team in general drafted in the last 5-6 years (outside of 1st round picks like Carter, Richards, Giroux and JVR) that has really developed into something??

Maroon looks like he could be a potential steal, Marshall sounds promising but Nodl isnt developing as we all thought, Matsumoto hasnt been given a chance for whatever reason. I think the drafting could be better, but I wouldnt call it bad.

I ready to give up on him yet, but I would keep a "close eye"

With that said, if this team doesnt turn it around it obviously has to come down to the chemistry of the team and he is 100% responsible for that.

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Originally Posted by flyguy View Post
Eh, I'm not so sure how much of Holmgren's hand was on the trigger to fire Stevens. I feel that move most definitely came from Mr. Snider. There will never be anything to prove it, but Snider had to have had some pressure on Homer to finally make the move. Stevens had to have been skating on thin ice since his second ten game losing streak in Snider's mind. There were multiple times to get him out of here, getting to the third round basically bought him another year from Holmgren's POV, but if Holmgren didn't make the move now, he would be gone too.

As for Homer as a GM, he's been up and down. The ups being moves like the stroke of genius in bringing Timonen and Hartnell in, the downs being moves like bringing Jones on re-entry which will probably bite us in the ass at some point this season, and I still don't like all of the early round draft picks he's jettisoned. Whether Pronger was worth the 2 firsts will remain to be seen, but the lack of early round draft picks this team has in the next couple of years is frightening.
Signing the best FA's at their respective positions like Hartnell and Timonen is hardly a stroke of genius.

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Anyone who has never played with, been associated with or played against the Broad Street Bullies.
Couldnt agree more!

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Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
Since everyone here seems to think this team can only be managed by the teams former players, why no consider bringing back one of their best ex-coaches to run the show.
I'm sure Mike K. wouldn't sit around watching this group of hung-over party boys tank the season like they have been.

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Old
12-21-2009, 09:49 PM
  #29
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"Who do you bring in as GM?"

Me!!!


Ok, back to drinking. Carry on.


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Old
12-21-2009, 09:50 PM
  #30
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Joe McGrath


+1

Now Trade Me Right ****ing Now!

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Old
12-21-2009, 10:35 PM
  #31
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All I know is I do not want anyone from within the organization. I do not want any former Flyers. I also do not want any dinosaurs that still believe 70s hockey is alive and well.

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Old
12-21-2009, 10:39 PM
  #32
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Amaro Jr.

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Old
12-22-2009, 06:50 AM
  #33
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+1

Now Trade Me Right ****ing Now!
And then hang up!

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Old
12-22-2009, 08:26 AM
  #34
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And then hang up!
Then the GM calls back and he answers the phone all cordial and pleasant. Great sports movie.

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Old
12-22-2009, 08:40 AM
  #35
IrishSniper87
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How do you guys blame Homer for this?

This team is VERY deep. The guys are young and talented. IDK why they are losing, but it isn't Homer's fault.

Gagne-Richards-Giroux
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
JVR-Powe-Pyorala
Carcillo-Betts-Lappy

Carle-Pronger
Coburn-Timonen
Parent-Bartulis

can't score goals? Looking at the that during pre-season, I was excited. They started 12-5-1. This team looked so good. I have clue what happened, but the pieces are there.

Blaming Homer would be saying that he failed to bring in guys who are good. We are loaded with good players.

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Old
12-22-2009, 09:57 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
How do you guys blame Homer for this?

This team is VERY deep. The guys are young and talented. IDK why they are losing, but it isn't Homer's fault.

Gagne-Richards-Giroux
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
JVR-Powe-Pyorala
Carcillo-Betts-Lappy

Carle-Pronger
Coburn-Timonen
Parent-Bartulis

can't score goals? Looking at the that during pre-season, I was excited. They started 12-5-1. This team looked so good. I have clue what happened, but the pieces are there.

Blaming Homer would be saying that he failed to bring in guys who are good. We are loaded with good players.

There are big sore spots on those lines. Pyorala has been average to poor, and Hartnell has lost almost all his natural talent in exchange for energy. Carcillo has no natural talent to begin with, only energy, and only Powe has been a pleasant surprise this year.

And don't get me started on how Jeff Carter has forgotten how to score, or take good shots. He's playing like he did 2-3 years ago.

Everyone is playing in circles, but some guys you can't just smile away and say they're in a 'slump'.

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Old
12-23-2009, 12:08 AM
  #37
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Where is all of this praise for Homer coming from? He's been a bonehead when it comes to the cap. While his trades are great ON PAPER, it also has to work ON THE ICE!!!!!

Putting the right collection of individuals together to succeed is the ultimate measuring stick, and if you objectively look at it, he has been a FAILURE.

Trading or acquiring a player who replaces a lesser one DOES NOT mean it was a good move UNLESS THE TEAM DOES BETTER BECAUSE OF THE CHANGE.

The run to the ECF was clearly catching lightning in a bottle. Remember the dismal performance in the final game last year, AT HOME, for the # 4 seeding. A first round exit after that, followed by this years disaster.

When it's all said and done this coming April, a lucky run plus one and at best two first round exits = FAILURE on the GM's part. If Stevens was so bad, why has this disaster continued? Unless significant personnel changes occur, this team as it is currently constructed will be lucky to win more than a round in the next year or two.

Further proof that coaching IS NOT the issue here. It's a failure at the top, plain and simple.


Last edited by bstreetbully: 12-23-2009 at 12:22 AM.
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Old
12-23-2009, 12:16 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
How do you guys blame Homer for this?

This team is VERY deep. The guys are young and talented. IDK why they are losing, but it isn't Homer's fault.

Gagne-Richards-Giroux
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
JVR-Powe-Pyorala
Carcillo-Betts-Lappy

Carle-Pronger
Coburn-Timonen
Parent-Bartulis

can't score goals? Looking at the that during pre-season, I was excited. They started 12-5-1. This team looked so good. I have clue what happened, but the pieces are there.

Blaming Homer would be saying that he failed to bring in guys who are good. We are loaded with good players.
Maybe Laviolette should put those lines back together once Powe is healthy (so, tomorrow)? Might as well try to see if that works before losing ALL hope in turning this thing around. Don't you figure Gagne and Giroux would make for good line mates, or is Gagne no longer good at shooting the puck?

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Old
12-23-2009, 12:21 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
How do you guys blame Homer for this?
Plain and simple. He put it together and it is STINKING right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
This team is VERY deep. The guys are young and talented. IDK why they are losing, but it isn't Homer's fault.

Gagne-Richards-Giroux
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
JVR-Powe-Pyorala
Carcillo-Betts-Lappy

Carle-Pronger
Coburn-Timonen
Parent-Bartulis
Deep? What does that get you? Six players scored 30+ last year and what did that get us? A first round exit. Last years team was deeper. Six won't score 30+ this year. I never understood why people on here think DEPTH=SUCCESS.

On paper, the Flyers may have been deeper than the Penguins last year. The "shallower" team WON THE CUP. They won because of guys named Crosby, Malkin, and Andre Fleury.

This will answer the "deep" question for you. Would you trade Emery, Gagne, Richards, Giroux, and Briere right now for Crosby, Malkin, and Andre Fleury? Of course you would. You wouldn't be as "deep" but you would probably be a MUCH BETTER TEAM. (Hint: Stars win in this league for you. A collection of individuals does not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
can't score goals? Looking at the that during pre-season, I was excited. They started 12-5-1. This team looked so good. I have clue what happened, but the pieces are there.

Blaming Homer would be saying that he failed to bring in guys who are good. We are loaded with good players.
Loaded with "good" players, yes, but the lack of a true star is a big reason this team can't get out of this downward spiral.

It's called winning with smoke and mirrors. Homer brought in better individuals in almost every case when he altered the roster but once again, this DOES NOT mean the team will AUTOMATICALLY be better on the ice. It is only better on paper.

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Old
12-23-2009, 12:21 AM
  #40
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I'll do it.

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Old
12-23-2009, 06:48 AM
  #41
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I'll do it.
I can already see the beginning and end of your tenure.

First move: Sign Forsberg.

Final move: Retire Forsberg in Orange and Black.

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Old
12-23-2009, 06:59 AM
  #42
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Bob McCammon scouts for the Red Wings. He was the Flyers GM when they selected key members of the Flyers two Cup finals teams in the 1980's. Didn't he make the Behn Wilson for Doug Crossman trade?Or the Rat Linseman trade with Edmonton and Hartford which brought Mark Howe to the Flyers.

Snider did offer the GM job to Soupy Campbell before giving it to Holmgren.

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Old
12-23-2009, 07:03 AM
  #43
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If we don't make the playoffs and don't have a #1 pick, Homer has to go.

That being said, I'd give him the remainder of the season with some stipulations.

Any trade he attempts to make involving Carter, Richards, Giroux, or JVR needs to have approval from above before it's consumated.

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Old
12-23-2009, 09:22 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
We seem to be drafting better, especially in later rounds.
I've already proven to you (in another thread) that this is a dubious claim at best. We were a rather good drafting team under the Clarke administration. Moreover, it's a bizarre point because Holmgren was in charge of the draft under Clarke.

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He's put together an incredible team that appears to have been underachieving because of Stevens.
He hired and extended Stevens. He also failed to create a balanced roster of forwards (which caused Stevens some consternation) this year, last year he created a weak defense that led to the Carle trade, and he's created a questionable goaltending situation this year.

Ya know, the one position that absolutely HAS TO show up for you to do anything.

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He has his loyalties, but the Stevens situation proves he's not afraid to pull the trigger to win.
At least 6 months too late...

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He is extremely solid at evaluating talent that can be useful to our team in free agency/via trade.
The job of a scout/Asst GM, not the primary responsibility of GM.

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His one knock is cap management, but we haven't really had to sell our souls for winning just yet.
...his one knock? That's his primary knock, and it's among the most important skills of a GM under a salary cap. He's effing atrocious at it. Last year he bungled it to the point that we lost decent depth role players, and made a horrendous trade on value. It also meant we could make no moves to improve our team going into the playoffs. This year he's done it again, largely due to a completely indefensible decision to call up Jones (his justification? "What can you do?" Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.).

Quote:
If anyone should be complaining about a supposed "lack of a prospect pool" it should be me, and I have absolutely no problem with the current pool or the moves he's made (even if they depleted our "future").
That's because apparently the salary cap is only a minor knock against him...his moves with prospects have directly contributed to a rigid salary cap structure.

However, even then, if this is the primary zone where Holmgren gets/deserves praise, it's in an area where he should be delegating responsibility to a large extent. Managing the farm is supposed to be the job of scouts and Asst GMs, with the GM managing the work they're doing and keeping an eye to the big picture and the big club.

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If he ends up the next scapegoat, I quit you all. Stevens deserved it. Holmgren does not.
Well, quit me...because I think Holmgren has been an atrocious GM ever since the "Summer of Spending." His job was easy that summer...he had a bad team and a lot of money. Since then, he hasn't been able to throw money at his problems and he hasn't proven an effective GM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
If we don't make the playoffs and don't have a #1 pick, Homer has to go.

That being said, I'd give him the remainder of the season with some stipulations.

Any trade he attempts to make involving Carter, Richards, Giroux, or JVR needs to have approval from above before it's consumated.
Agreed on all counts.

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Old
12-23-2009, 09:38 AM
  #45
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I don't see how anyone can say that they don't have a problem with our prospects system.

We have absolutely no goalie of the future in the NHL and our best prospects are a 7th round pick who hasn't even played in the top tier in Sweden and an 18 year-old who's had 3 good months in the Dub and is arguably getting outplayed by the other goalie in his team.

This has been a problem for years, probably since the lockout if not beforehand.

Then you look at the d-men, sure the Phantoms aren't doing great, but all of our guys have serious questions and I think it's also worth noting that Bartulis is starting to get pretty exposed.

Forwards, arguably our best forward prospect going into the year (since JVR and Giroux are with the big club) is a guy who has 2 goals in 28 games. So now our best prospect there might be a guy who decided he didn't want to play hockey 18 months ago.

And we don't have a lot of picks for the next 2-3 years, so that's fun.

And we haven't even gotten to the Boucher signing which was pretty damn questionable last summer and looks even worse now. People act like this entire goaltending issue is just temporary, guess what, it isn't. We're going to have the annual problem of trying to find a good goalie for cheap. Then of course you have the problem of Homer relying on somebody who hadn't played 40 games either of the previous 2 years to be our starter, so that's working out great too.

Of course a strong prospect goalie would alleviate a lot of these problems, but we don't have one in the system and please don't start on Morrison and Ericsson, I like both guys, but they are marginal at best. I was here for the Dov Grumet-Morris years.

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Old
12-23-2009, 10:46 AM
  #46
Haute Couturier
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Fantastic post, Jester. I completely agree with everything you said.

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Old
12-23-2009, 10:46 AM
  #47
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Is the answer Jesus?

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Old
12-23-2009, 01:09 PM
  #48
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Joe McGrath


Who own Cheifs?

OWNS! OWNS!

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Old
12-23-2009, 01:20 PM
  #49
Jester
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And we haven't even gotten to the Boucher signing which was pretty damn questionable last summer and looks even worse now. People act like this entire goaltending issue is just temporary, guess what, it isn't. We're going to have the annual problem of trying to find a good goalie for cheap. Then of course you have the problem of Homer relying on somebody who hadn't played 40 games either of the previous 2 years to be our starter, so that's working out great too.
I largely agree with you, but picking on Boucher--a BACKUP goalie--who has put up a 2.66 GAA, and .902 SVPCT is a bit much. As I said at the time, he's fine as a backup you just don't want him to start...the problem all along was Emery. And who knows if Emery was affected by his injury, hopefully he was...as he was fine at the start of the year. Not a world beater, but we can get by with him. However, if the injury wasn't really causing the drop in his play then Holmgren should be fired...and we'll find out in the coming months on that front.

But Boucher, with a legit goalie in front of him, would be absolutely fine as a backup for us...both contractually, and on his play to this point. Don't let your dislike of the signing blind you to the realities of what he's done.

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12-23-2009, 01:31 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I largely agree with you, but picking on Boucher--a BACKUP goalie--who has put up a 2.66 GAA, and .902 SVPCT is a bit much. As I said at the time, he's fine as a backup you just don't want him to start...the problem all along was Emery. And who knows if Emery was affected by his injury, hopefully he was...as he was fine at the start of the year. Not a world beater, but we can get by with him. However, if the injury wasn't really causing the drop in his play then Holmgren should be fired...and we'll find out in the coming months on that front.

But Boucher, with a legit goalie in front of him, would be absolutely fine as a backup for us...both contractually, and on his play to this point. Don't let your dislike of the signing blind you to the realities of what he's done.
I don't have an issue with the job he's done, more with the role that he was given.

If you want a backup that is going to play you 15-20 games, do decently, keep your team in it, etc. Boucher is great.

I.e., if you have a Lundqvist/Nabokov/Brodeur/Vokoun/insert elite goalie, Boucher is a great fit.

The problem is that our starter is Ray Emery. Emery played 33 games at a low level due to injury in 07-08, and then only played 36 games last year (and it's worth noting that his backup had significantly better stats in 30 games).

So your new starter is a guy who had chronic injury problems in 07-08, and then played less than 40 games outside the NHL in 08-09. I'm sorry, but in that situation, I want a backup with extensive NHL experience who's capable of playing 30-40 games at a pretty good level if I need him to do that; both Conklin and Craig Anderson were FAs who fit that bill perfectly. Both Conklin and Craig Anderson signed for less than a mill more than Boucher (meanwhile we're eating 1.35 mill on the Jones contract while he sits in LA's pressbox) and both would have been infinitely better fits for this team and I said that at the time.

We went into this season without a safety net in goal (not criticizing Bouch, but he hasn't started more than 20 games since 03-04 going into this year) and with a goalie who had injury history and hadn't played games in North America for over a year. That in and of itself is a borderline fireable offense. It's absolutely retarded, but then again, "what can you do?"

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