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Old
12-28-2009, 06:03 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
He doesn't have to be, so what does it matter?
It matters because I mentioned on the trade forum that the Flyers have an excess of top 4 defenseman. I said one might be traded. He then ranted about how I overrate the players on the roster, but he was particularly angry about how I considered Parent one of those 5.

An argument followed based on the understanding that if Coburn or Carle were traded in the offseason Parent could used on the Flyers as a top 4 defenseman.

He, outraged, hijacked a thread about the Devils looking for top 4 defenseman. I told him to go argue it on the Flyers board if he was going to argue it somewhere since he was already doing in so in a thread on this board.

Instead he created a new one here and one on the main board.

He did this all to prove that I was overrating Parent when I said he could be a top 4 defenseman if Coburn or Carle was traded.

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12-28-2009, 06:22 PM
  #27
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Whatever, I think it's a very legitimate question and deserves its own thread on here because I think the Flyers are banking on him stepping up and becoming a cost-effective shutdown guy.

Right now, it's very hard to say. He has monster games like the couple he had with Kimmo a while ago, but at the same time, our 3rd pairing (where he's been for a lot of the year) has been a pretty big liability and while obviously that's not completely on him, it's definitely a worry.

The fact that he can't stay healthy it seems is another big black mark against him, you need these guys to play their 75-80 games per season and he simply hasn't gotten that done in 08-09 and 09-10.

The raw ability is most definitely there and he's shown flashes of it, but as things currently stand, it'd be foolhardy for the Flyers to pencil him in for the top-4 in 10/11. He needs to come back and have a strong last half of the season.

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12-28-2009, 06:34 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Whatever, I think it's a very legitimate question and deserves its own thread on here because I think the Flyers are banking on him stepping up and becoming a cost-effective shutdown guy.

Right now, it's very hard to say. He has monster games like the couple he had with Kimmo a while ago, but at the same time, our 3rd pairing (where he's been for a lot of the year) has been a pretty big liability and while obviously that's not completely on him, it's definitely a worry.

The fact that he can't stay healthy it seems is another big black mark against him, you need these guys to play their 75-80 games per season and he simply hasn't gotten that done in 08-09 and 09-10.

The raw ability is most definitely there and he's shown flashes of it, but as things currently stand, it'd be foolhardy for the Flyers to pencil him in for the top-4 in 10/11. He needs to come back and have a strong last half of the season.
If he was healthy I'd have no problem with him playing in the top 4.

I've done the numbers already. If we're planning on re-signing Emery this summer our defense is going to have to get a good looking at.

Pronger (4.92) - ???
Timonen (6.33) - ???
Bartulis (0.60) - ???

Those three spots are for Carle (3.44), Coburn (RFA), and Parent (RFA).

Coburn is at 1.30m and will want a raise though his current play may be keeping his price down.
Parent is at 0.86m and may be keeping his price down due to injuries as well as a lack of offensive abilities.

Either one of Carle, Coburn, or Parent could get us assets in the way of picks and prospects which, quite frankly, we could use.

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12-28-2009, 07:11 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
If he was healthy I'd have no problem with him playing in the top 4.

I've done the numbers already. If we're planning on re-signing Emery this summer our defense is going to have to get a good looking at.

Pronger (4.92) - ???
Timonen (6.33) - ???
Bartulis (0.60) - ???

Those three spots are for Carle (3.44), Coburn (RFA), and Parent (RFA).

Coburn is at 1.30m and will want a raise though his current play may be keeping his price down.
Parent is at 0.86m and may be keeping his price down due to injuries as well as a lack of offensive abilities.

Either one of Carle, Coburn, or Parent could get us assets in the way of picks and prospects which, quite frankly, we could use.
If you're forced to trade one of them, unless Coburn has a dramatic turn-around, Carle is really the only practical one to trade. Coburn has better potential then Carle in my opinion and has low value right now. Parent has very, very little value (especially compared to his value to the team right now). Not to mention that Carle has the worst contract of the three.

If we get rid of Carle in the off-season then it screws up the lineup I think. Carle's the only option other then Timonen to go on the top line and I don't trust Coburn to handle the second line without a guy like Pronger or Timonen.

However, I'm eager to see how Bartulis can do on the second line next year. I'd also like to see a guy like Marshall get a shot at the bottom pairing next year, assuming said prospects' play is deserving of a shot at the lineup of course.

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12-28-2009, 07:40 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It matters because I mentioned on the trade forum that the Flyers have an excess of top 4 defenseman. I said one might be traded. He then ranted about how I overrate the players on the roster, but he was particularly angry about how I considered Parent one of those 5.

An argument followed based on the understanding that if Coburn or Carle were traded in the offseason Parent could used on the Flyers as a top 4 defenseman.

He, outraged, hijacked a thread about the Devils looking for top 4 defenseman. I told him to go argue it on the Flyers board if he was going to argue it somewhere since he was already doing in so in a thread on this board.

Instead he created a new one here and one on the main board.

He did this all to prove that I was overrating Parent when I said he could be a top 4 defenseman if Coburn or Carle was traded.
Oh I've noticed his diatribes. My point is that none of the current top 4 are likely to go anywhere before the end of the season, so RIGHT NOW, all Parent needs to be is a good #5. By the time he needs to step into the top 4 on a regular basis, he should have another ~40 games under his belt. At this stage in his career, that's a lot of time and a lot of things are likely to change between now and then, so what he is now isn't all that useful in determining whether Parent is going to be a good #4 by the time he actually needs to be. NWO seems to dislike the kid a lot, but in reality it's pretty premature to form conclusions about a player with so much learning to do. As long as he can play a competent third pairing role - which he's done a good job with in my mind - people need to just sit back and see what happens.

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12-28-2009, 08:30 PM
  #31
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frankly i deal coburn before carle. hell be the more expensive contract of the two if his number is big enough that we have to consider making a trade. should that problem arise i have no problem playing parent on the second pairing.

parent right now is a decent 4/5 guy. makes few mistakes but doesnt impress much. hes still developing and could one day be a solid second pairing anchor. his skill set and smart defensive play make him a valuable addition without the bells and whistles that drive up contracts like big hits and point production. if he can resolve his injury problems hell be a reliable cheap defenseman for many years to come.

i fear he lacks the offensive ability to play on the 2nd pp unit and doesnt have the shutdown ability yet to command 1st pk time. though i think given time he could grow into that. i see him very similar to jones valuewise though with an almost completely inverted skillset and a good contract. but with the added pontential to get better.

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12-28-2009, 09:33 PM
  #32
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I'd say he is a top four guy for sure, but not a top two guy. He is an excellent defensive defenseman but he is not a top tier Norris trophy guy. If Coburn or Carle gets traded I would be 100% confident in him.

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12-28-2009, 09:40 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'd say he is a top four guy for sure, but not a top two guy. He is an excellent defensive defenseman but he is not a top tier Norris trophy guy. If Coburn or Carle gets traded I would be 100% confident in him.
I would be confident in his ability, but not in his injury history.

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12-28-2009, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I would be confident in his ability, but not in his injury history.
True that.

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12-28-2009, 09:52 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'd say he is a top four guy for sure, but not a top two guy. He is an excellent defensive defenseman but he is not a top tier Norris trophy guy. If Coburn or Carle gets traded I would be 100% confident in him.
Parent has his moments but he will not outplay Carle or even Coburn right now. 24min a night game in, game out is waaay too much for Parent right now. So no, he is not top 4 guy for sure. He might be in the future.

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12-29-2009, 06:22 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Parent has his moments but he will not outplay Carle or even Coburn right now. 24min a night game in, game out is waaay too much for Parent right now. So no, he is not top 4 guy for sure. He might be in the future.
I don't know how many second pairing guys are asked to do 24 minutes/game consistently? The Flyers may lean as hard on their top four as any team I've ever seen in the regular season. I wonder what that says about their confidence in their bottom pairing.

I'd also be interested to see how many minutes the third pairing guys are getting at home, when the coach can choose who they're out on the ice against. Hopefully it's more than when they're on the road.

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12-29-2009, 08:23 AM
  #37
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I've ignored this thread for a couple days, for obvious reasons. However, I don't understand how some of you don't think Parent can handle top 4 duties. When he is paired with Timonen that pairing is an absolute beast. (see: end of last season, one game this season) The kid thrives on ice time. It is hard to get back into the rhythm of last year playing with Bartulis/OKT/Syvret when he was used to Timonen for the latter part of last year. Give him a steady d-partner with increased TOI and you'll see what you get. He is just now reaching 81 GP in the NHL and has above average positioning and defensive stick technique. Not to mention hes as smooth skating of a defensemen as you will find, watch his stride. Also, he is using his decent sized frame alot better this year.

I'll take him over Coburn and Carle. I know I'm a homer. The trade value of Carle is as high as it will ever be for this upcoming offseason. Get the assets we can get for him and save his cap space.

Pronger-Coburn (maybe he will take strides like Carle did playing with Pronger)
Timonen-Parent (reunite this pairing to handle Crosby)
Bartulis-X (x=big hard nose UFA defenseman)

Obviously, this is all contingent on him being able to stay healthy, as it is a huge concern at this point.

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12-29-2009, 08:50 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Oh I've noticed his diatribes. My point is that none of the current top 4 are likely to go anywhere before the end of the season, so RIGHT NOW, all Parent needs to be is a good #5. By the time he needs to step into the top 4 on a regular basis, he should have another ~40 games under his belt. At this stage in his career, that's a lot of time and a lot of things are likely to change between now and then, so what he is now isn't all that useful in determining whether Parent is going to be a good #4 by the time he actually needs to be. NWO seems to dislike the kid a lot, but in reality it's pretty premature to form conclusions about a player with so much learning to do. As long as he can play a competent third pairing role - which he's done a good job with in my mind - people need to just sit back and see what happens.
i do not dislike parent at all. i just have different expectations than others when it comes to him. one day maybe he can be a #4 dman, right now he isnt and has struggled on the 3rd pairing. if ends up being a solid #5 guy i dont have a problem with that. sorry dont see this #1 shutdown potential that certain people on these boards see and pimp him as such. of course if they trade coburn or carle parent will move into a top 4 role. that is by default though. he hasnt earned top 4minutes because of his play. if he did he would be palying in the top 4 not on the bottom pairing. not liek carle is this defensive stalwart either.

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12-29-2009, 08:52 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by JSTAFF View Post
I've ignored this thread for a couple days, for obvious reasons. However, I don't understand how some of you don't think Parent can handle top 4 duties. When he is paired with Timonen that pairing is an absolute beast. (see: end of last season, one game this season) The kid thrives on ice time. It is hard to get back into the rhythm of last year playing with Bartulis/OKT/Syvret when he was used to Timonen for the latter part of last year. Give him a steady d-partner with increased TOI and you'll see what you get. He is just now reaching 81 GP in the NHL and has above average positioning and defensive stick technique. Not to mention hes as smooth skating of a defensemen as you will find, watch his stride. Also, he is using his decent sized frame alot better this year.

I'll take him over Coburn and Carle. I know I'm a homer. The trade value of Carle is as high as it will ever be for this upcoming offseason. Get the assets we can get for him and save his cap space.

Pronger-Coburn (maybe he will take strides like Carle did playing with Pronger)
Timonen-Parent (reunite this pairing to handle Crosby)
Bartulis-X (x=big hard nose UFA defenseman)

Obviously, this is all contingent on him being able to stay healthy, as it is a huge concern at this point.
To be honest, I'd prefer to keep our defense intact if at all possible. Carle seems to be the better player then Coburn though. Don't forget these guys are in their mid-20's. Defensemen don't peak until late 20's early 30's, especially defensively. If we can keep everyone and give minimal raises to Coburn and Parent, I'd be all for it.

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12-29-2009, 08:56 AM
  #40
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To be honest, I'd prefer to keep our defense intact if at all possible. Carle seems to be the better player then Coburn though. Don't forget these guys are in their mid-20's. Defensemen don't peak until late 20's early 30's, especially defensively. If we can keep everyone and give minimal raises to Coburn and Parent, I'd be all for it.
I sure would like to have that 3.44 of cap space to sign a real goalie.

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12-29-2009, 08:56 AM
  #41
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i do not dislike parent at all. i just have different expectations than others when it comes to him. one day maybe he can be a #4 dman, right now he isnt and has struggled on the 3rd pairing. if ends up being a solid #5 guy i dont have a problem with that. sorry dont see this #1 shutdown potential that certain people on these boards see and pimp him as such. of course if they trade coburn or carle parent will move into a top 4 role. that is by default though. he hasnt earned top 4minutes because of his play. if he did he would be palying in the top 4 not on the bottom pairing. not liek carle is this defensive stalwart either.
No one here ever said he had number one shut-down potential.

I can promise you if Pronger wasn't acquired it'd be Parent in the top 4. Despite health issues he is a very good shut-down defenseman. He can't really be a number one because he's one-dimensional. That one-dimension though, he does exceptionally well. It's a little like the anti-Jones I guess, but this doesn't cost us goals-against.

Also, lately you should not question Carle. He's played pretty well defensively.

And most people here may not agree with me, but I think Carle has potential to be a number 1 guy as much as Coburn. I didn't think that until this year, and you can't just say it's all Pronger. Carle looks like a force right now.

It's going to be a pretty interesting decision this summer.

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12-29-2009, 08:58 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It matters because I mentioned on the trade forum that the Flyers have an excess of top 4 defenseman. I said one might be traded. He then ranted about how I overrate the players on the roster, but he was particularly angry about how I considered Parent one of those 5.

An argument followed based on the understanding that if Coburn or Carle were traded in the offseason Parent could used on the Flyers as a top 4 defenseman.

He, outraged, hijacked a thread about the Devils looking for top 4 defenseman. I told him to go argue it on the Flyers board if he was going to argue it somewhere since he was already doing in so in a thread on this board.

Instead he created a new one here and one on the main board.

He did this all to prove that I was overrating Parent when I said he could be a top 4 defenseman if Coburn or Carle was traded.
your very dramatic. incorrect as i do not get angry at message boards. outraged? if you say so.the flyers do not have an excess of top 4 dman (if they do who are they?). so that is incorrect right there imo. having 2 guys (carle, coburn) and 1potential guy in parent does not = an "excess" of top 4 dman. You said Parent is a top 4 dman right now. imo he isnt. As i said numerous times to you parent would move into a top 4 role, not hard to figure out, if one of them were traded by default. not because he earned it by his play on the ice. no i did it because you said most flyers fans with the exception of me think parent is a top 4 dman right now.

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12-29-2009, 09:02 AM
  #43
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I sure would like to have that 3.44 of cap space to sign a real goalie.
If Coburn takes anywhere around 2m we could definitely afford it. This summer comes down to what happens to Coburn's and Emery's contracts.

But what do people think about trying to trade Hartnell instead?

That would put our forward group like this:

Gagne - Richards - Giroux
vanRiemsdyk - Carter - Briere
Maroon? - Powe - Nodl?
fourth line

Then we could keep our defense in tact. There are options.

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12-29-2009, 09:05 AM
  #44
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No one here ever said he had number one shut-down potential.

I can promise you if Pronger wasn't acquired it'd be Parent in the top 4. Despite health issues he is a very good shut-down defenseman. He can't really be a number one because he's one-dimensional. That one-dimension though, he does exceptionally well. It's a little like the anti-Jones I guess, but this doesn't cost us goals-against.

Also, lately you should not question Carle. He's played pretty well defensively.

And most people here may not agree with me, but I think Carle has potential to be a number 1 guy as much as Coburn. I didn't think that until this year, and you can't just say it's all Pronger. Carle looks like a force right now.

It's going to be a pretty interesting decision this summer.
bs people have said he has #1 pairing potential. way to lazt to even tyr to find it so dont ask.
of course he would be in the top 4 if pronger wasnt here that isnt really saying much though is it as they would not have any other options. yoru missing the point big time. earning a top 4 role and having one handed to you are 2 different items. remember when jones was as top 4 man on the flyers? that was by default

i shouldnt question carle because he has played well of late? well i guess you version of playing well and mine really differ. he is avg at best in the defenisve zone. playing well for a few game stretch is fine but wont change my opinion. he also doesnt bring enough offense to make up for his defensive shortcomings. didnt he have like 15 points in the first 15 games or something like that? hasnt done much since.guess we will disagree as no way do i ever see him being a #1 dman

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12-29-2009, 09:06 AM
  #45
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your very dramatic. incorrect as i do not get angry at message boards. outraged? if you say so.the flyers do not have an excess of top 4 dman (if they do who are they?). so that is incorrect right there imo. having 2 guys (carle, coburn) and 1potential guy in parent does not = an "excess" of top 4 dman. You said Parent is a top 4 dman right now. imo he isnt. As i said numerous times to you parent would move into a top 4 role, not hard to figure out, if one of them were traded by default. not because he earned it by his play on the ice. no i did it because you said most flyers fans with the exception of me think parent is a top 4 dman right now.
I'm pretty sure most Flyers fans believe that a healthy Parent could occupy a top 4 role immediately and be effective. In fact, he's done it before.

Also, whether you were angry or not, you were certainly unnecessarily belligerent and you need to relax with calling people homers. Just because someone has a different opinion does not automatically make them an optimistic homer.

Look, don't start. Without you this thread really got into something constructive. I like constructive threads. Now you're devolving it back into a name-calling troll fest with loopholes and spelling errors.

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12-29-2009, 09:10 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
If Coburn takes anywhere around 2m we could definitely afford it. This summer comes down to what happens to Coburn's and Emery's contracts.

But what do people think about trying to trade Hartnell instead?

That would put our forward group like this:

Gagne - Richards - Giroux
vanRiemsdyk - Carter - Briere
Maroon? - Powe - Nodl?
fourth line

Then we could keep our defense in tact. There are options.
I guess it really depends on how Giroux JVR, Hartnell and Coburn all look through out the rest of the year.


If JVR looks ready at year's end and Hartnell hasn't looked that great, then I wouldn't mind trading him for a gritty Betts/Pahlsson type of guy to make room for more money on the defensive end (provided Coburn has looked like he is worth keeping at an increased salary).

That's a lot of if's though. If Hartnell looks good, JVR continues to have trouble scoring and Coburn looks serviceable-but-not-great, then the decision gets tougher.


Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 12-29-2009 at 09:17 AM.
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12-29-2009, 09:10 AM
  #47
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I sure would like to have that 3.44 of cap space to sign a real goalie.
Real goalie cost way more.. I do not see a big difference in terms of skill between 1.5M goalie and 3.5M goalie.

There are exceptions Khabibulin and Roloson.


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12-29-2009, 09:12 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
If Coburn takes anywhere around 2m we could definitely afford it. This summer comes down to what happens to Coburn's and Emery's contracts.

But what do people think about trying to trade Hartnell instead?

That would put our forward group like this:

Gagne - Richards - Giroux
vanRiemsdyk - Carter - Briere
Maroon? - Powe - Nodl?
fourth line

Then we could keep our defense in tact. There are options.
i would trade hartnell in a second.
how can you even think about putting maroon and nodle on the 3rd line? what have shown that they can handle that load? maroon is a bad skater and him with powe is a mismatch. nodle needs to stay in the ahl to find his game. he hasnt impressed much at the nhl level. guess matosmuto will never get a shot, wonder who he pissed off?

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12-29-2009, 09:12 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
If Coburn takes anywhere around 2m we could definitely afford it. This summer comes down to what happens to Coburn's and Emery's contracts.

But what do people think about trying to trade Hartnell instead?

That would put our forward group like this:

Gagne - Richards - Giroux
vanRiemsdyk - Carter - Briere
Maroon? - Powe - Nodl?
fourth line

Then we could keep our defense in tact. There are options.
I have no problem with trading Hartnell if Maroon was ready. Is he though? I dont think so.

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12-29-2009, 09:13 AM
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IrishSniper87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO View Post
i would trade hartnell in a second.
how can you even think about putting maroon and nodle on the 3rd line? what have shown that they can handle that load? maroon is a bad skater and him with powe is a mismatch. nodle needs to stay in the ahl to find his game. he hasnt impressed much at the nhl level. guess matosmuto will never get a shot, wonder who he pissed off?
Maroon-Matsumoto-Powe

that could be awesome

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