HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

A Thought About Tanking

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-29-2009, 11:01 PM
  #1
Synergy27
Registered User
 
Synergy27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Country: United States
Posts: 5,780
vCash: 500
A Thought About Tanking

The argument over whether or not it is better to finish 30th or to just barely squeak into the playoffs has been gone over a million times on this board. I am not looking to stir that pot - we all recognize that there are different, valid opinions regarding the subject. But, with the WJCs in full swing, and everyone's eyes on the next crop of elite talent that will soon be eligible to play in the NHL, I got to thinking about how (and if) another very important group of people view NHL prospects - current NHL players.

Take Chris Drury for example. Do you think he is even aware of who Taylor Hall is (please refrain from making jokes about how he won't let Hall ruin his weekend). Let's assume he does. Now, take it a step further. Does he look at the kid and say "damn, he could really help the Rangers win" or something more along the lines of "damn, my job could be in jeopardy if that kid ends up as part of this organization."?

How does this relate to tanking? Well, I just find it hard to believe that people involved with the day-to-day operations of a hockey team (think players and coaches) have the time to keep tabs on the next generation of stars. They've probably heard of the potential top end guys, but I doubt they think about how awesome it would be to have them lining up next to them in the future like we all do. And if they did, wouldn't it motivate them to perform better because their livelihood might be at stake? Wouldn't this then mean that tanking doesn't exist in the way we all assume it does?

Just some food for thought. Interested to see what you guys think.

Synergy27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2009, 11:20 PM
  #2
Carl Hagelins Flow
Flow Status: AMAZING
 
Carl Hagelins Flow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Long Island, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 4,233
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synergy27 View Post
The argument over whether or not it is better to finish 30th or to just barely squeak into the playoffs has been gone over a million times on this board. I am not looking to stir that pot - we all recognize that there are different, valid opinions regarding the subject. But, with the WJCs in full swing, and everyone's eyes on the next crop of elite talent that will soon be eligible to play in the NHL, I got to thinking about how (and if) another very important group of people view NHL prospects - current NHL players.

Take Chris Drury for example. Do you think he is even aware of who Taylor Hall is (please refrain from making jokes about how he won't let Hall ruin his weekend). Let's assume he does. Now, take it a step further. Does he look at the kid and say "damn, he could really help the Rangers win" or something more along the lines of "damn, my job could be in jeopardy if that kid ends up as part of this organization."?

How does this relate to tanking? Well, I just find it hard to believe that people involved with the day-to-day operations of a hockey team (think players and coaches) have the time to keep tabs on the next generation of stars. They've probably heard of the potential top end guys, but I doubt they think about how awesome it would be to have them lining up next to them in the future like we all do. And if they did, wouldn't it motivate them to perform better because their livelihood might be at stake? Wouldn't this then mean that tanking doesn't exist in the way we all assume it does?

Just some food for thought. Interested to see what you guys think.
I think you are stretching things a little bit. Most players probably don't pay attention to upcoming stars, at least enough to matter.

But to say the organization or the staff doesn't pay attention to upcoming talent is where you lose me. The scouts report to Sather and Sather talks to Torts. If Torts is not aware, then Sather at least is aware of Taylor Hall and how the prospects are looking in general.

If any team "tanks" it is most likely because the GM made the decision or "looks the other way".

Carl Hagelins Flow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2009, 11:52 PM
  #3
The Thomas J.*
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Staten Island, NY
Posts: 18,847
vCash: 500
I doubt they Tank, I can see them missing the Playoggs by a decent Margin, but not enough for a lottery pick.

The Thomas J.* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 12:07 AM
  #4
Brooklyn Ranger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn, of course
Posts: 8,582
vCash: 500
I don't believe players on any team decide to lose. I think management sets them up to fail in order to tank it. How? By trading useful players and by putting players on the ice who don't fit into whatever concept there is.

In any case, I don't think the Rangers will tank the season--even for the next great one. What is management going to do? Only play Lundqvist on Sundays? Sit healthy players (oh yeah, Gaborik was really tired after the Olympics so "we" decided to shut him down for two weeks)?

Let's get real. The Dolans need the Rangers to be competitive. And it doesn't matter to the players currently here that some kid MAY be drafted and MAY earn a spot on the roster NEXT season. Not to mention that Tortorella would likely have a cow (and start throwing players over the moon) if players started tanking it on the ice. If the Rangers "earn" a lottery pick, it will be because there are injuries to key players, nothing more, nothing less.

Brooklyn Ranger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 12:16 AM
  #5
wolfgaze
Interesting Cat
 
wolfgaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,381
vCash: 500
With regards to the thread title alone, I have to object to your choice of verbage in 'tanking'. That word by it's very nature implies some sort of willful desire to do worse and I think it reflects negatively on the integrity of the players and the organization... No one wants to to bad but sometimes it's a necessary evil.

The only condition in which it's acceptable not to finish as high as you could manage in the standings is for your organization's GM & Owner to make the conscious decision to rely on young, inexperienced players to fill out the bulk of their roster, which is for the better of the organization in the not too distant future.... It's accomplished not by organization directives but by roster moves/decisions.

In other words... You don't intend to finish poorly because you want a high draft pick.... You shape your roster around young players and finishing poorly is a byproduct if their lack of experience and the high draft pick is a byproduct of you finishing poorly.... That's the only conditions in which it's justifiable...If we could go that route, sign me up. But Sather needs to start the process before I can support anything. I'm tired of floating on the bubble of mediocrity.... Another roster purge is definitely in order, this time we need to stop filling the holes with under-performing veterans.... I'll take 2 seasons of no playoffs if it leads to 2 seasons of advancing beyond the first round, after that.


Last edited by wolfgaze: 12-30-2009 at 12:36 AM.
wolfgaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 12:27 AM
  #6
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 9,878
vCash: 500
"The argument over whether or not it is better to finish 30th or to just barely squeak into the playoffs"

In my mind, there's no doubt. If we aren't Cup contenders, I prefer to finish dead last to get a player who'll help us become contenders.

Beacon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 12:59 AM
  #7
Nick00
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,876
vCash: 500
The players and the coaching staff don't tank, the organization decides to give up on the season.
I don't think any organization looks at it as intentionally losing games either, they just approach it as starting to rebuild mid-season since there's no hope of competing that year.
They'll trade away the "core" of the team (the guys who are depended on to fill the biggest roles) at the deadline, and give their ice time to young call-ups.
This kind of drastic reconstruction could easily lead to a top 3 pick in the draft, and what's wrong with that?
If an organization recognizes that they're severely lacking depth and elite young talent, then they should aim at filling that void through whatever means necessary.
Rebuilding through youth > buying talent

Nick00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 01:01 AM
  #8
King of cool
The winning hat
 
King of cool's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Under your skin
Country: France
Posts: 2,001
vCash: 500
The fact of tanking is just a disgrace to the sport in general. I just can't imagine a team purposely loosen the handbrake, and slide in the rankings just to get a ticket to the lottery. Just one word, a shame, that's a shame. Players and managers who would encourage that kind of mentality are just cowards and cheaters. Would be the same if they cashed in in a boxing game by pretending a KO. Same for the so-called fans. You don't root backward for your team, that's the dumbest thing possible, ever. "Yeah let's tank!" Jeez...

We don't have closed leagues here in Europe like the NHL and the NFL, no matter what the sport is, your team suck, you just don't rely on the system to save your ass. You don't have a sacrosanct lottery to save it. You suck, you're retrograded in an inferior division with weaker teams, where you belongs, and you work your butt hard the following season to come back within the elite. There's nothing to gain in tanking.

I love the draft system in NA sports, but sometimes, that just leads to very questionable ethic question. The system would gain to be reworked imo. Too much suspicion on bottoms teams with that lottery thing.

King of cool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 01:07 AM
  #9
silverfish
Player Usage
 
silverfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Standing on a Train
Country: United States
Posts: 19,400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by #97 View Post
I love the draft system in NA sports, but sometimes, that just leads to very questionable ethic question. The system would gain to be reworked imo. Too much suspicion on bottoms teams with that lottery thing.
This. I understand why it's the way it is but to give an "award" to the teams that finish dead last isn't really a good system.

I understand the bad teams get better, but like #97 said it just puts this idea into everyone's head that being as bad as you can be if you're not good is the best way to go.

I still think the teams who come in 9th, 10th, 11th, etc, etc... in their respective conferences should be in a 6 team lottery for the number 1 pick. That way every team needs to compete every season. And this way you're always competing to make the playoffs and if you don't make them, you're still rewarded.

But I don't think it will ever be changed, and I will never, ever support a "tank."

A rebuild I can get behind wholeheartedly when it is necessary...but a tank? NEVER

silverfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 02:10 AM
  #10
Puckface NYR*
R.I.P. Boogyman
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Long Island
Posts: 8,167
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
NEVER

Will never support a tank as well...completely agree.

Referring to an earlier post, teams are definitely set up to fail by management. Just look at the islanders the past few years, at the deadline they ship off anything of worth and basically have an ahl caliber team (if that) towards the end of the year. The players try their hardest simply because it is basically an audition/tryout for next years team, however are nearly incapable of winning without any true veterans. Just look at who they have traded away over the past few years; Guerin, Comrie, Campoli, M.A. Bergeron, Simon, not to mention finding no true goalie with Dipi out all season.

I have no problem with what they do considering it is playing by the rules (ala yankees spending money) however i would never condone a full on tank. The Rangers have skill, are they a great hockey club...no. Can anything happen in the playoffs...yes!

Lundqvist & Gaborik and a healthy squad and anything can happen.

Puckface NYR* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 02:17 AM
  #11
Zil
Registered User
 
Zil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 4,304
vCash: 500
I really don't understand why this matters. We have no control over whether this happens or not. Zero. All talking about this does is get us angry at each other, especially now when there's more than half a season left.

Zil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 02:52 AM
  #12
jcbio11
Registered User
 
jcbio11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bratislava
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 2,135
vCash: 50
Wouldnt it be funnny though if the players watched the games and were like Damn, that guy is the new me.

jcbio11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 05:25 AM
  #13
broadwayblue
Registered User
 
broadwayblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 16,401
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynHockey99 View Post
"The argument over whether or not it is better to finish 30th or to just barely squeak into the playoffs"

In my mind, there's no doubt. If we aren't Cup contenders, I prefer to finish dead last to get a player who'll help us become contenders.
Amen. Anything else just makes you that much worse going forward.

broadwayblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 06:36 AM
  #14
HoosierDaddy
Registered User
 
HoosierDaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Country: Norway
Posts: 1,070
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
But I don't think it will ever be changed, and I will never, ever support a "tank."

A rebuild I can get behind wholeheartedly when it is necessary...but a tank? NEVER
What he said.

There is a reason I cannot stand to even look at those spineless ******* representing flightless birds from PA. And to have their fans voted as the "best"" fans in hockey is an insult. Where the hell were they when their team was sucking? Best fans my ass.

I posted before, the day I feel the Rangers tank to get a lottery pick is the day I start rooting for my other less favorite teams. I've watched mediocrity for the better part of 45 years, but they've always tried to take steps to make the playoffs and played to the wire. That makes me a PROUD Ranger fan. As to the sucking, nothing a good ole fashion management housecleaning couldn't cure. But not the scouts. They're doing fine by me.

I would think players are also hockey fans. Maybe not the the extent we board lizards are hockey fans.

HoosierDaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 06:59 AM
  #15
Synergy27
Registered User
 
Synergy27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Country: United States
Posts: 5,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcbio11 View Post
Wouldnt it be funnny though if the players watched the games and were like Damn, that guy is the new me.
This is more along the lines of what I was thinking. I guess framing my thought in a post about "tanking" was the wrong way to go about it. My real question is whether or not you guys think that current NHL stars are aware of upcoming draftees, and if they view them as potentially awesome teammates or competitors for a job. I guess it could be both, but really, I wonder if Scott Gomez was practically doing back flips when the Rangers drafted Cherepanov like I was. Somehow I doubt he knew/cared.

Synergy27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 07:24 AM
  #16
otto1219
Registered User
 
otto1219's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 998
vCash: 500
Say what you want about drury talent wise, but the guy has too much class to start losing games or suggest that his team starts losing games on purpose. Secondly, if you think lundqvist starts trying less you're crazy as well, as anyone who has played organized sports or anyone who is competitive whatsoever knows what losing feels like and has grown a disdain for that feeling.

The only way this team can tank. Is if they have a firesale or an injury to gaborik or hank. And for the record, our firesale would be trading prospal and higgins, because no one else will take the rest of our garbage (and we aren't trading youth), and the management will not waive big contracts.

otto1219 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 07:28 AM
  #17
jas
Unsatisfied
 
jas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NJ
Posts: 14,090
vCash: 500
Frankly, I want what I always want - a steady influx of young talent that becomes integrated and developed accordingly. I want to see continued growth from the likes of Staal, Dubinsky, Callahan, MDZ and AA, along with Henke and Gaborik playing at their stellar levels. If that all happens, we're not talking about tanking.

What this means is a heavy reliance on good drafting. So, it falls at the feet of Gordie Clark. The likes of Grachev, Stepan and Kreider need to develop into top notch players. Essentially, this means no more Jessimans and Montoyas. Kreider, Stepan and Grachev HAVE to become the Rangers' version of Getzlaf/Perry, Richards/Carter or Parise/Zajac. Notice all of those were taken outside the top ten. With Gaborik and Henke, this team does have two elite talents, and it is unlikely, barring injuries, that they get near the lottery. The Rangers have to hope top notch talent falls on draft day, as it did in the cases of AA, MDZ, Stepan, Grachev and Kreider.

jas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 07:30 AM
  #18
BKBlackRanger
My Glove******Instagram
 
BKBlackRanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Richland, Wa
Country: Barbados
Posts: 569
vCash: 500
this is why American culture is on a rapid decline....because failure is an option

BKBlackRanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 07:45 AM
  #19
pld459666
Registered User
 
pld459666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Danbury, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 17,912
vCash: 500
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synergy27 View Post
This is more along the lines of what I was thinking. I guess framing my thought in a post about "tanking" was the wrong way to go about it. My real question is whether or not you guys think that current NHL stars are aware of upcoming draftees, and if they view them as potentially awesome teammates or competitors for a job. I guess it could be both, but really, I wonder if Scott Gomez was practically doing back flips when the Rangers drafted Cherepanov like I was. Somehow I doubt he knew/cared.
Scotty wasn't a Ranger whrn Cherry was drafted, but I get your drift.

Cherry was drafted on 6/22/07

Gomez was signed on 7/01/07

pld459666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 07:51 AM
  #20
FOXHOUND*
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Woodside, Queens
Country: United States
Posts: 3,507
vCash: 500
Penguins, Blackhawks, Capitals
all current top teams in the league who were bad before they were good.
I'd like to be among them in the near future, but no way that happens without a TOP TOP prospect

FOXHOUND* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 07:53 AM
  #21
ZacUSNYR
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Upstate, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 811
vCash: 500
Does this thread remind anyone else of that southpark episode where the kids were in junior baseball and wanted to lose so they could go home, but the other teams were better at losing then they were so they kept winning and went to the world championships.

lol

ZacUSNYR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 07:55 AM
  #22
pld459666
Registered User
 
pld459666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Danbury, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 17,912
vCash: 500
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BKBlackRanger View Post
this is why American culture is on a rapid decline....because failure is an option
Strategic failure in any walk of like has ALWAYS been an option and a very common practice.

Wars have been won on strategic failure, companies have made millions on strategic failures.

This is no different.

The Knicks were able to draft Patrick Ewing after throwing their season back in the early 80's. It set that franchise up for future success for the next 15+ seasons.

Same with the Penguins with Mario Lemieux.

Putting Sid in Pitt this time made sense in that The Devils have been one of the better teams in the league for the last 15 years. The Flyers never really have a problem drawing fans. Neither do the Rangers. The Islanders don't really matter much to the league regardless of what Bettman may say publically. No knock on the fan base, but having the Rangers and Devils in this area means there's really no need for the Islanders to be here.

The bottom line is that taking one step back in order to take 2 steps forward is tried and true method of success.

Strategis Failure is taking that one step back. Being lucky enough to get a very high draft choice is what helps teams take those 2 steps forward.

When losing becomes acceptable on a regular basis, then I would agree with you. But since that is not the case here, I would say that your point has no merit.

pld459666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 08:12 AM
  #23
BroadwayBlues
oxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxo
 
BroadwayBlues's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New York City
Country: United States
Posts: 9,065
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Strategic failure in any walk of like has ALWAYS been an option and a very common practice.

Wars have been won on strategic failure, companies have made millions on strategic failures.

This is no different.

The Knicks were able to draft Patrick Ewing after throwing their season back in the early 80's. It set that franchise up for future success for the next 15+ seasons.

Same with the Penguins with Mario Lemieux.

Putting Sid in Pitt this time made sense in that The Devils have been one of the better teams in the league for the last 15 years. The Flyers never really have a problem drawing fans. Neither do the Rangers. The Islanders don't really matter much to the league regardless of what Bettman may say publically. No knock on the fan base, but having the Rangers and Devils in this area means there's really no need for the Islanders to be here.

The bottom line is that taking one step back in order to take 2 steps forward is tried and true method of success.

Strategis Failure is taking that one step back. Being lucky enough to get a very high draft choice is what helps teams take those 2 steps forward.

When losing becomes acceptable on a regular basis, then I would agree with you. But since that is not the case here, I would say that your point has no merit.

Yep. Don't forget the Spurs too. Tanking for Tim Duncan. And personally I believe the 02-03 Cavaliers did it too for LeBron.

If you're not willing to suck bad enough to be in the lottery and you're content with just making it into the playoffs as and 8th seed, you better be great at finding players late in rounds like the Devils and Red Wings. Otherwise you will never be a cup contender.

BroadwayBlues is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 08:30 AM
  #24
BrooklynRangersFan
Change is good.
 
BrooklynRangersFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brooklyn of course
Country: United States
Posts: 11,047
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
Yep. Don't forget the Spurs too. Tanking for Tim Duncan. And personally I believe the 02-03 Cavaliers did it too for LeBron.

If you're not willing to suck bad enough to be in the lottery and you're content with just making it into the playoffs as and 8th seed, you better be great at finding players late in rounds like the Devils and Red Wings. Otherwise you will never be a cup contender.
To be fair, both the Knicks and the Spurs suffered major injuries to the teams' stars in those years. The Knicks were suffering from a loss of both Bernard King and Bill Cartwright and the Spurs were without David Robinson for the year. It would be akin to the Rangers losing at least Gabby and maybe Hank too. And if that were to happen, I think it's fairly clear that we'd be making a strong push for Taylor Hall this year...

BrooklynRangersFan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2009, 08:35 AM
  #25
otto1219
Registered User
 
otto1219's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 998
vCash: 500
knowing our luck we will finish in last and lose the draft lottery. when was the last time we had number 1? 1965? was that the only time?

otto1219 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:41 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.