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Old
12-31-2009, 12:05 PM
  #1
Kind of Blue
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Sjostrom-Betts-Orr

Arguably Sather's biggest off-season mistake. Tortorella played a role and is to blame as well.

I always thought this was a mistake, as did many posters around here. But I think its evident now more than ever though.

In addition to the obvious, tangible qualities they brought to the ice -- Betts' PKing, blocked shots and solid faceoff ability; Sjostom's PKing and speed; Orr's fighting and toughness -- they also brought certain intangible qualities of equal or possibly even greater importance...

That line was part of the identity and character of the team. They represented consistent and relentless hard work; they brought it every night. They represented teamwork, attention to detail and doing the little things. They were well liked. In addition, they could be relied on for some decent minutes for fourth liners, thus taking some pressure off the rest of the team.

Their replacements, in short, have no ability and no identity.

While my point focuses on more than statistics, but here are the numbers anyway, as of today:

Betts: 20 GP, 5 G, 1 A, 6 PTS, +5, 13 mins ATOI
Sjostrom: 36 GP, 1 G, 5 A, 6 PTS, +2, 10 mins ATOI
Orr: 41 GP, 1 G, 2 A, 3 PTS, -3, 6:30 mins ATOI

Boyle: 37 GP, 3 G, 1 A, 4 PTS, -1, 8 mins ATOI
Brashear: 29 GP, 0 G, 1 A, 1 PTS, -8, 6:30 mins ATOI

Salaries:

Betts: $550,000/year through 2010
Sjostrom: $750,000/year through 2011
Orr: $1,000,000/year through 2013

Boyle: $500,000 in 2010; $550,000 in 2011
Brashear: $1,500,000 in 2010; $1,300,000 in 2011


Last edited by Kind of Blue: 12-31-2009 at 12:23 PM.
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Old
12-31-2009, 12:07 PM
  #2
HockeyBasedNYC
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PLEASE STOP...

My god... This DOES NOT MATTER.

Having either of the 3 or all of them together wouldnt change a thing with this team.

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Old
12-31-2009, 12:08 PM
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wolfgaze
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I would like to waive the following players:

Voros
Boyle
Brashear

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Old
12-31-2009, 12:10 PM
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HockeyBasedNYC
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Great, lets waive everyone.

But the cellar dwellers arent the problem.

Waive guys like Redden, start there and you're talking about improving the club.

I'd like to WAIVE SATHER. WAIVE HIM GOODBYE.

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Old
12-31-2009, 12:11 PM
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I Am Chariot
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It looks bad now...


But I saw what they were trying to do. Get bigger and maybe add some scoring.


We ripped SBO for being so inept offensively last season and THIS team is supposed to be run and gun....


The team sucked last night but was very clear was that they were mailing it in. They were not trying. No heart, no will to win.

Yea they could use some more talent but they are decent when the try...

the questions shouldnt be weather we should have kept Betts or not swapped Colton for Brashear.

The only question that needs an answer is WHY ARE THEY NOT TRYING? WHERE IS THE WILL TO COMPETE?


When this roster shows up, they are competitive. Not saying they are the contenders for the cup, but they compete.

But they take games off.....and its not just the 4th line

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Old
12-31-2009, 12:13 PM
  #6
wolfgaze
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Great, lets waive everyone.

But the cellar dwellers arent the problem.

Waive guys like Redden, start there and you're talking about improving the club.

I'd like to WAIVE SATHER. WAIVE HIM GOODBYE.
I'm not suggesting waiving those guys is going to fix this mess of a team.... I'm saying all 3 of those guys are USELESS and I don't see them ever contributing anything to this team at any point in the future.... Boyle can PK but he's absolute CRAP at even strength.... He has no hockey skills, just a big body.

I'd rather just roll 3 lines and/or make some call ups.

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Old
12-31-2009, 12:14 PM
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Kind of Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
PLEASE STOP...
No. I have the right to post my thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
My god... This DOES NOT MATTER.
It does, actually

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
PLEASE STOP...
Having either of the 3 or all of them together wouldnt change a thing with this team
All of them together would.

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Old
12-31-2009, 12:14 PM
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HockeyBasedNYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
I'm not suggesting waiving those guys is going to fix this mess of a team.... I'm saying all 3 of those guys are USELESS and I don't see them ever contributing anything to this team....

I'd rather just roll 3 lines and/or make some call ups.
Agreed. Totally useless.

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Old
12-31-2009, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kind of Blue View Post

All of them together would.
thats your opinion... thats cool. I dont think they would.

The PK is still very good. This team cant score or generate any type of consistent offensive pressure. Even if that line was together they wouldnt do squat on this team, because they would be getting 6 minutes of ice time a night even strength. Orr, sure i'd love to have him instead of Brash, any day of the week. But the problem runs much deeper than the 4th line on this squad.

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Old
12-31-2009, 12:17 PM
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I agree that it was a mistake to let all those 4th liners go, especially Betts.

But in the grand scheme of problems this team has, its pretty much a useless argument.

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Old
12-31-2009, 12:21 PM
  #11
Kind of Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
thats your opinion... thats cool. I dont think they would.

The PK is still very good. This team cant score or generate any type of consistent offensive pressure. Even if that line was together they wouldnt do squat on this team, because they would be getting 6 minutes of ice time a night even strength. Orr, sure i'd love to have him instead of Brash, any day of the week. But the problem runs much deeper than the 4th line on this squad.
In professional sports, you could debate the relative importance of character, effort and competitiveness as contributors to success, relative to pure talent, that is. I would argue those qualities are more important in hockey than any other major professional sport. And we lost a lot of that from last year. Some can argue against the significance of this; I think its too easy and flat out wrong to underestimate its significance.

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Old
12-31-2009, 12:22 PM
  #12
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Those moves have Torts written all over them..

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Old
12-31-2009, 12:23 PM
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This is such a marginal issue right now....

Where's the secondary scoring? Teams have been shutting down Gaborik with ease and the other players can't contribute offensively.

Where's the defense? Absolutely zero defensive coverage, opponents are left wide open in front of the net with the anticipation that the goaltender will bail out the defense.

I can't imagine the line of Sjostrom-Betts-Orr addressing any of these issues... and they were a combined -31 last season so they weren't exactly shutting down the opposition.

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Old
12-31-2009, 12:24 PM
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Some people here are so numbers driven... They do not see the difference between the couple more goals that someone like Boyle may put up compared to Betts and Sjostrom.

The bottom line is that chemistry and locker room stuff is HUGE.

Called it at the time that it was stupid to let guys like Sjostrom and Betts go and it has come back in that fashion. Just watch someone like Boyle talk. he has no character and doesn't have the work ethic to make people around him better.

People here get so numbers driven (unfortunately the Rangers did too) and it results in letting quality character guys like Betts and Sjostrom go.

You think Boyle or Brashear care about the name on the front of the jersey???? You need guys who will do everything for that name on the front of the jersey. Over the last couple years we have lost guys like that. Redden could care less about being on the Rangers. Drury shows effort, but doesn't show that same overwhelming care. You have to bleed the teams colors to win championships and chemistry is more important than any lines you can put out there.


Say what you want about guys like Rozy but he cares. He may suck with the awful turnovers at times, but when his contract was up this past year, he stayed with the team and trained here regardless. he didn't play the FA game like many players do. We gave him too much money as Sather often does, but Rozy was here when he didn't have a contract and that says a lot.

That is why Jagr worked out. He wanted to be a Ranger and you have to have guys like that.

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Old
12-31-2009, 12:25 PM
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Kind of Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
This is such a marginal issue right now....

Where's the secondary scoring? Teams have been shutting down Gaborik with ease and the other players can't contribute offensively.

Where's the defense? Absolutely zero defensive coverage, opponents are left wide open in front of the net with the anticipation that the goaltender will bail out the defense.

I can't imagine the line of Sjostrom-Bett-Orr addressing any of these issues... and they were a combined -31 last season so they weren't exactly shutting down the opposition.
Lack of effort and commitment is the most disturbing problem with this team right now. Without that, all the talent in the world is useless.


Last edited by Kind of Blue: 12-31-2009 at 12:33 PM.
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Old
12-31-2009, 12:32 PM
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OverTheCap
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Originally Posted by Kind of Blue View Post
Lack of effort and commitment is the most disturbing problem with this team right now. Without that, all the talent in the world is useless.
The effort was there for the past 5 games and then it disappeared again last night. The problem is that they can't put up a good effort consistently.

How is the presence of Sjostrom-Betts-Orr going to address the issue of Kotalik or Redden's lack of effort? The 4th line is only the ice for about 8 minutes a game. Three marginal players aren't going to have that big of an impact on the team to the point where they inspire players like Redden to play harder.

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12-31-2009, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
The effort was there for the past 5 games and then it disappeared again last night. The problem is that they can't put up a good effort consistently.

How is the presence of Sjostrom-Betts-Orr going to address the issue of Kotalik or Redden's lack of effort? The 4th line is only the ice for about 8 minutes a game. Three marginal players aren't going to have that big of an impact on the team to the point where they inspire players like Redden to play harder.
Under Renney, we had as much or probably less talent than now. Winning those 1-0 and 2-1 games is about effort and commitment, it wasn't talent really (goaltending aside). Effort and commitment are contagious in a team, and certain guys help spread that -- guys like Sjostrom, Betts, and Orr were a part of that.


Last edited by Kind of Blue: 12-31-2009 at 12:48 PM.
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Old
12-31-2009, 12:36 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
This is such a marginal issue right now....

Where's the secondary scoring? Teams have been shutting down Gaborik with ease and the other players can't contribute offensively.

Where's the defense? Absolutely zero defensive coverage, opponents are left wide open in front of the net with the anticipation that the goaltender will bail out the defense.

I can't imagine the line of Sjostrom-Betts-Orr addressing any of these issues... and they were a combined -31 last season so they weren't exactly shutting down the opposition.
We have none. Every forward on this team is a third liner on another team except Gaborik.

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Old
12-31-2009, 01:17 PM
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You are losing 5-0, at home, to a division rival and your 1.4 mill tough guy doesn't try to stir the pot or send a message. Do you think Donald Brashear cares about the rivalry or being embarrassed on home ice? He is playing out the last couple of years of his career and cashing his paycheck. He fought a couple of times early on and is now in cruise control for the rest of the year. If he has an injured hand then he shouldn't be on the ice, since he provides nothing in the way of actual hockey skill.

Last year when we were getting dismantled by Dallas, Colton Orr and Dubinsky were the only guys on the ice who put up any fight and showed any type of passion. Say what you want about Orr's ability to play the game of hockey but the guy cared. He played with pride and cared about the sweater he wore. Can't say the same about most of the guys on this years team.

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Old
12-31-2009, 05:53 PM
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I don't think keeping them changes a thing.

Our flaw is that we have too many bottom 6 forwards trying to play as top six forwards.

I don't know why we keep focusing on the bottom lines - our problem is that we don't have top line talents and we don't have a great defense.

Essentially we have a car that has no engine and no brakes and we're complaining about how there is no seatbelts. And just like a car, it doesn't really matter because we seem to forget that we aren't going anywhere.

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Old
12-31-2009, 05:56 PM
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FLYLine24
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Is this thread for real?

Because we lost our old 4th line scrubs and brought in new 4th line scrubs is the reason why we stink?

Mr no personalty Betts?
Mr all speed no skill Sjo?
Mr fighter but couldn't skate who score a goal if his life depended on it.

Really?

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Old
12-31-2009, 05:57 PM
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NYR Sting
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There were numerous mistakes made this summer that far overshadow any of these three. None of them are consequential players. You want to talk about mistakes made this summer, you start with Ales Kotalik. Then you can talk about Brashear. But I'm not complaining that Orr wasn't signed to a four-year contract.

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Old
12-31-2009, 06:09 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by FLYLine24 View Post
Is this thread for real?

Because we lost our old 4th line scrubs and brought in new 4th line scrubs is the reason why we stink?

Mr no personalty Betts?
Mr all speed no skill Sjo?
Mr fighter but couldn't skate who score a goal if his life depended on it.

Really?
Of course it makes a difference! With the 4-6 minutes at even strength, they would be even more effective then they were last year! And the penalty kill would be #1 in the World! Yep, it would truly make a significant difference.


Last edited by Brooklyn Ranger: 12-31-2009 at 07:02 PM.
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Old
12-31-2009, 06:37 PM
  #24
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These guys wouldn't have been the answer. Just more bottom 6 guys on a team nearly devoid of real talent.

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Old
12-31-2009, 10:41 PM
  #25
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With Sjo and Betts on the PK last year the team killed 87.8% of power plays and scored 9 shorties. 1st and 9th in the league, respectively.

This year they've killed 85.2% and have 4 shorties. 5th and 8th in the league.

That's the difference. That's it. If anyone still thinks that would make a big difference on this team, give me your email address. I know a Nigerian prince who could use your help with some bank transfers and will give you a million dollars to do it.

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