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Old
01-02-2010, 01:42 PM
  #201
Ugene Malkin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Mara is meh. I put him in that McKee/Skoula category. He's a solid 6-7 option, but he's making too much money this season for my liking. Anybody who would be interested in playing for under $1 million would get my vote for the 6-7 role, and then the other addition would have to be reasonably priced too. And of course, Eaton too would have to be right around his current salary and not much more.
That is the position I am talking about.

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Old
01-02-2010, 05:21 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
The Hurricanes won the Cup without a true No. 1. It can be done, it all depends on your roster composition.
No rules without exceptions. You're talking about the most unlikely final in recent memory with arguably the worst champion - if there is such a thing. Our biggest problem is defense and breakouts from defense. You think the solution is to not resign the best we have and spend the money on wingers and a young defenseman who might come great one day, but surely isn't even close to being that now.

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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
am sure we will miss Gonchar to some degree when he's gone, but you can't turn back the clock...we're going to find out what it's like soon enough. It's not like he is part of the core of this team that will still be together 4-5 years from now.
I don't care about 5 years from now. We draft for that. Talk about 5 years from now if we're in a pre-Crosby abyss. Anything can happen in that time span, and present needs must be addressed when you're a contender.
What I do care about is one and two years down the line where I do not believe that guys like Letang and Gogo are genuine topline defenders and you will have them forced into that role. Becoming a great defender takes time for all but the very best talents, and neither of them belong to that category. We have too many aces on our hands to not try and set the team up for cup runs every year.

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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
He's living on borrowed time, so it's better to be pro-active (dealing him) than re-active (OMG we can't live without Sarge, sign him to a crazy contract).
What's crazy is the notion that he'd be DEALT! Nr.1 defenseman, point and minute leader, NTC, on a defending champion.... dealt? Nah.
I was ready for that stuff when we were looking dead and buried last season. But sure as hell not when we are easily a playoff team and one of the odds on favourites to win the whole thing again.

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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I think we'd miss that extra $4.5 million in cap space two years from now if Sarge retired more than losing him right now.
Its not like its uncommon for defenders to play at 39. They can even play well... Why would we expect him to retire during his contract? The only legitimate worries are injuries (his cap-hit does not count when on IR I think) and the wheels falling off. Now he is pretty much our best defender both offensively and defensively. Gotta fall a lot to not still be a good and serviceable player...

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Originally Posted by WVP View Post
But what do you do if Gonchar isn't playing like a #1 defenseman anymore and now you can't afford to address the situation?

The age thing is huge part of this discussion.
Of course, I am not immune to the age factor either, and its not an ideal scenario at all that he was signed to a contracts that could not be prolonged before he is 35. But its a situation where after we dealt Whitney, you gotta think that the bet was then on Gonchar staying for the foreseeable future because Whitney was the heir apparent.
We have a what if as regards how well Gonchar will age. Sure. I cannot complain so far as the best hockey and defense of his life has been played from he was 33 and onwards.
Beyond that, my point is that we don't have an alternative because the other guys we have are not serious solutions for a cup contender. They show that every time Sarge isn't there.

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01-02-2010, 05:49 PM
  #203
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I see a bunch of guys from the farm being called upon after the trade deadline. You would have to think guys like Lestutu, caputi, jeffery will be given a shot. Talbot, Dupuis, Fedex are all horrendous game in and game out.


This is a "what have you done for me lately" business. Those guys are playing their way out of the NHL. (Yes, I understand Dupuis has 8 goals or whatever, but he is a HORRIBLE hockey player.)

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01-02-2010, 05:58 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Culloden View Post
I see a bunch of guys from the farm being called upon after the trade deadline. You would have to think guys like Lestutu, caputi, jeffery will be given a shot. Talbot, Dupuis, Fedex are all horrendous game in and game out.


This is a "what have you done for me lately" business. Those guys are playing their way out of the NHL. (Yes, I understand Dupuis has 8 goals or whatever, but he is a HORRIBLE hockey player.)
Dupuis is nothing but solid when he isn't put on a scoring line, I blame the coaches for constantly putting an offense killer on the first two lines. He's a much much much better 3rd-4th liner.

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01-02-2010, 06:35 PM
  #205
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Too66, I understand your fears about life without Gonchar, but honestly what are our options? And how much of a cap hit would you be willing to pay Gonchar at age 39? Even Detroit fans are wondering if Lidstrom is still worth his cap number today, and how much he should make next year (if he plays). Such is life in the NHL now. It's nothing personal, it's just cap business.

The ONLY reason Guerin is still with us is because he took BOTH a cap hit of significant proportion and a one-year deal. If Sarge wants it, I'm Shero is ready with a pen in hand yesterday to re-sign. Disrespectful? Probably. Could he do better on the open market? Oh hell yeah. Significantly better. Like maybe 3-4 years at close to $6 million perhaps. Some teams would be totally desperate to add him, for sure.

But we simply can't afford it. We have gone from acquiring Marian Hossa to fill our biggest need, to trying to survive with the likes of Miro Satan and Ruslan Fedotenko, to winning the cup with a top six of Kunitz, Guerin, Fedotenko and Talbot on the wings, to not even replacing Satan and Sykora this past off-season. We're now trying to defend the Cup and trying to reach the Cup finals for the third year in a row with top-six wingers named Guerin, Kunitz, Dupuis and Fedotenko. And the only other in-house options are Talbot, Rupp or one of the AHL prospects that Shero seems reluctant to recall this season.

I don't know how ugly it could get without Sarge on our blue-line, but can it honestly look as ugly as our winger situation at present time? If we look at the potential UFA list for 2010, there seem to be far more defensemen available than scoring wingers. This is important two-fold: A) It should be easier to find defensemen to fill the holes via free agency next July 1 than it would be to try to continue a fruitless search of UFA scoring wingers, and B) if we were to potentially trade Gonchar this season, there are more defensemen available to replace him than scoring wingers.

With all the defensemen we've drafted in recent years, I'm more confident in our ability to replace blue-liners from within than finding real top-six wingers. We'll probably have to settle for one top-six guy from within and one from the outside. To me, if we drafted defensemen so early, it's for the purpose of re-stocking the big-league team eventually. Unless the plan is to deal defense prospects for winger prospects, I don't see another way to alleviate our cap crunch. And even then, those winger prospects would still have to pan out.

As much as I agree with Gooch that Kunitz has a cap hit that's a tad too much, we'd really be in trouble if we didn't even have him right now...and if we're keeping Gonchar around, it would probably cost us Kunitz.

Gonchar; Kunitz; Letang. We can't keep all three. If we do, it means no Cooke for sure, no Eaton for sure, no scoring winger upgrade either. Does this look like a better team next year than if we didn't keep Gonchar?...

Kunitz-Crosby-Tangradi
Caputi-Malkin-Talbot
Dupuis-Staal-Kennedy
Rupp-Adams-Godard
Jeffrey

Gonchar-Letang
Orpik-Lovejoy
Goligoski-Engelland
(Despres) or cheap UFA

Fleury
Curry

I'll take it, but what happens if Tangradi or Caputi doesn't pan out? What if Jeffrey is more of a bottom sixer? What if we have to send Despres back to the 'Q'? We probably wouldn't have much cap space to do anything.

The debate continues.

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Old
01-03-2010, 02:17 AM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Too66, I understand your fears about life without Gonchar, but honestly what are our options? And how much of a cap hit would you be willing to pay Gonchar at age 39?
Well.... there's a season to watch and a lot of time before this is really an urgent matter, but that there is really my question to you reversed.
I don't see us having any other option but to sign him, because he is - in totality - presently by far the best defender we have, and most every conceivable option for replacing him with an UFA will cost as much or more while getting a player who is presently not as good and cannot be counted upon to deliver nearly the same Sarge does.
You say its easier to find an UFA defender than winger... I say hahaha. We're not just looking for an UFA defender. We're looking for a passable nr.1 defenseman. Those don't come cheap. Depth defensemen do.
I don't believe this team, with the super star quality it has and all, can actually win without Gonchar or a comparable nr.1. Virtually no team can. Most certainly not with Gogo and Letang who are great young players to have, but NOT at all top pairing defensemen. Skoula plays better D than either of them.
Look at Dallas. Wingers coming out of their arses. Good centers like Richards and Ribeiro. Steady, physical defensemen.... yet... no nr.1, hence they've been non-factors since Zubov broke down and later went to the KHL.

As for what I would pay him at 39.... that's a bit of a red herring isn't it? He will be 36 later this season, so a three year contract will see him end the last year having just turned 39. Lidström has only started to trail off now (still great of course), and he turned 39 in April. Rob Blake is 40 and doing very well as a 2nd/3rd line defender with a PP role. Before this season San Jose paid him 5 million. Now they resigned him for a year at 4 million, and again - he doesn't play nearly the minutes Sarge does, isn't nearly as good, doesn't produce nearly the offense and is 40 years old. Then of course there's Pronger who is 6 months younger than Sarge and signed for 7 years at nearly 5 million.... that I wouldn't like.

But as I said before, I have no problems paying him 4-4.5 for two/three years but we most likely have to get him the years he wants for him to accept a wage cut given that he is a top10 defender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
The ONLY reason Guerin is still with us is because he took BOTH a cap hit of significant proportion and a one-year deal. If Sarge wants it, I'm Shero is ready with a pen in hand yesterday to re-sign. Disrespectful? Probably. Could he do better on the open market? Oh hell yeah. Significantly better. Like maybe 3-4 years at close to $6 million perhaps. Some teams would be totally desperate to add him, for sure.
I still have hopes for Sarge taking a discount ultimately. Certainly if its a three year deal. But there's no comparison to Guerin. At all. Guerin is 39 right now and is long since removed from his prime. Still got a 4.5 million a year contract that took him to 38 years old. He re-signed because being on the Pens made him useful again, and gave him the shot at winning. Something he hadn't been doing for a long time and evidently liked. Unlike Gonchar, he didn't have a realistic claim for top dollar either.
Gonchar is a top10 defender in the league RIGHT NOW having had his best ever years defensively these last three seasons plus this one since Pens stopped being the dredge
While being our best defenseman defensively (EVERYONE has played better with Sarge than with anyone else. Melichar(!), Eaton, Scuds, Orpik), he has put up 174 points in 214 games. 32 points in 47 playoff games also. You underrate Sarge and his importance to this team so much it is almost criminal, IMO .

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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
But we simply can't afford it.
We can't afford not to if we want to have a shot at winning.

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Old
01-04-2010, 02:51 AM
  #207
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So what the heck happened to this guy? I thought he showed so much promise (with a few bumps along the way) in the playoffs last year, and figured this would be the year he put it all together. Instead, he's regressed to pre-2009 playoffs, and arguably, to playing like a rookie.

Goligoski doesn't seem to be playing well since his injury either, which makes me a bit nervous about these two being the future of the Penguins offense from the back end.

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01-04-2010, 09:02 AM
  #208
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After the stanley cup playoffs and Letangs decent defensive/physical play vs the Red Wings in the finals I thought he could command 3M+ per year. Right now I'd be sick if he got 2M+. It's really up and down with him right now. I'm more lost than ever about what to do with Gonchar/Letang. You don't want to over pay to keep Sarge around, however you don't want to over pay Letang if he never fully pans out. (and/or if he keeps up with the slumps).

In Shero we trust.

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Old
01-04-2010, 09:43 AM
  #209
Ugene Malkin
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Originally Posted by Forcier View Post
After the stanley cup playoffs and Letangs decent defensive/physical play vs the Red Wings in the finals I thought he could command 3M+ per year. Right now I'd be sick if he got 2M+. It's really up and down with him right now. I'm more lost than ever about what to do with Gonchar/Letang. You don't want to over pay to keep Sarge around, however you don't want to over pay Letang if he never fully pans out. (and/or if he keeps up with the slumps).

In Shero we trust.
Thats the only thing that has me intrigued with Letang. It could be, he is like Staal and gets his money, then he has that out of his mind. Then he puts up his potential showing. We can only hope because Gonchar's camp may not be as forgiving, but they know what they have with him. Letang?

I do believe they need a D-man who can clear the crease and another forward who will actually score goals. I would put more $ towards the winger and I feel the big D-man would be cheaper to find/get.

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01-04-2010, 10:17 AM
  #210
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The longer this slide goes on, the more likely it is that a move is going to be made. Letang is probably one of the Pens' more desirable chips for a trade. I would not have advocated this a few months ago, but RS isn't going to let things continue as they are without some kind of shake-up, and Goligoski's contract is too good.

But what would he bring? Probably another young player who is underperforming expectations, likely a winger. The way Letang is playing, he's not going to bring much else in a 1-for-1 deal.

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