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Old
01-06-2010, 03:00 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Yeah, and you were using your crystal ball and just knew he was going to score 52 goals after being traded here, right? Get off it.

The whole point is that ONE BAD HALF SEASON does not make a career, particularly when you're talking about a guy that's scored 20+ 3 times in 4 seasons and is 26 freakin' years old.

Do you really want or need a more specific example than Graves? Tony Amonte had 17 goals, combined, in 1993-4 for the Rangers and 'Hawks. He scored 30+ for the next 6 years and the two before that.
Don't become hostile because you no clue what the **** you are talking about. You pull numbers out of your ass without having any context on the situation of the player.

Mike Keenan hated Tony Amonte and he destroyed his confidence. Keenan forced the trade to Chicago.

Higgins averaged 24 goals in his first 3 seasons and you're comparing him to guys who scored 30-40 plus goals in their careers.

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01-06-2010, 03:05 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Higgins isn't having an "off year" and he isn't having a "rough year." He's playing the same way he played in MTL. The only reason he scored more there than he is here is because he played with better linemates there.

Do you people actually watch hockey, or do you just sit and look at stats? This is the same Chris Higgins. Same thing. He blew tons of chances there, too.
Now he is. But the first two months (give or take a few weeks) of the season he wasn't the same Chris Higgins, as he was in Montreal. He looked disinterested.......confused and a lot of times.....his body language appeared to say he didn't really feel like playing. The season started without Chris Higgins. Oh he was there in the lineup, but he wasn't there.

But he has come around and he has been playing like the Chris Higgins I watched with Montreal, for the last month. He's never been much more or less than a 20 to 25 goal scorerer. That's what he's always been.

This year, he's on a pace (if he keeps up this pace) to score even less than he did in Montreal. This could be his worst professional season in terms of offensive production.

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01-06-2010, 03:06 PM
  #78
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Really, Cogliano? I wonder for who.

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01-06-2010, 03:10 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Yeah, actually, I make a point of it to watch every night. That's why I spent nearly $200 on Center Ice.

And, FYI, your line mates don't score goals for you and you can't dismiss 3 20 goal seasons because he happens to be playing with good players. Then you could dismiss just about every player in the league.
FYI, you should stop wasting your money, because clearly you're not actually watching the games. Either that, or you don't know what you're watching.

It isn't about good players, it's about situations and circumstances. The circumstances under which Chris Higgins scored most of his goals in Montreal are not being achieved here, primarily because he isn't playing with players that can elevate his statistics beyond his limited abilities. He isn't playing with players that allow him to succeed. His skillset (or lack thereof) requires certain elements for him to be able to score goals.

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01-06-2010, 03:10 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Don't become hostile because you no clue what the **** you are talking about. You pull numbers out of your ass without having any context on the situation of the player.
Hostile? Not at all. My examples are perfectly legit. Now, you're going to use confidence issues as a crutch? Don't you think that Higgins might have a few "confidence issues" coming off an injury plagued disappointing season? Really? I've been watching hockey since the late 70's, and I remember Amonte as a Ranger and not wanting to see him go anywhere.

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Mike Keenan hated Tony Amonte and he destroyed his confidence. Keenan forced the trade to Chicago.
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Higgins averaged 24 goals in his first 3 seasons and you're comparing him to guys who scored 30-40 plus goals in their careers.
The mistake your making is that I'm pointing out a 17 goal season as an aberration for a guy that usually scores 30+. Higgins is on pace for 10 when he usually scores 20+. Get it?

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01-06-2010, 03:14 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
FYI, you should stop wasting your money, because clearly you're not actually watching the games. Either that, or you don't know what you're watching.

It isn't about good players, it's about situations and circumstances. The circumstances under which Chris Higgins scored most of his goals in Montreal are not being achieved here, primarily because he isn't playing with players that can elevate his statistics beyond his limited abilities. He isn't playing with players that allow him to succeed. His skillset (or lack thereof) requires certain elements for him to be able to score goals.
Really? How many Montreal games did you watch over the past four seasons, exactly?

20+ goals over three consecutive seasons = consistency. If you don't like him, fine. Don't use this "limited skill set" BS on me because he's had a rough start and used to play with Koivu and now plays on a team that doesn't have a real #1 center.

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01-06-2010, 03:17 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
FYI, you should stop wasting your money, because clearly you're not actually watching the games. Either that, or you don't know what you're watching.

It isn't about good players, it's about situations and circumstances. The circumstances under which Chris Higgins scored most of his goals in Montreal are not being achieved here, primarily because he isn't playing with players that can elevate his statistics beyond his limited abilities. He isn't playing with players that allow him to succeed. His skillset (or lack thereof) requires certain elements for him to be able to score goals.
but why get rid of him then... why not try to rid ourselves of players like Kotalik, Avery, Lisin, Drury (who is a shell of his former self) etc...

he has shown he can pop 25 goals... he is only 26 years old. He is good defensively and is pretty good on the forecheck. He does bust his ass out there. This is he problem w/ the NYR. Higgins should be part of the solution. he is a perfect 2nd/3rd line tweener. he is pay isn't overboared by any means. he brings good attitude to the team as well.

but no... we need to keep the Kotaliks, Lisins, Avery's, Drury's, Voros', Boyles of the game instead. These players are the players (maybe not lisin) that we should be looking to cut bait with. Higgins should be part of this teams future. Unfortunately he probably won't be.

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01-06-2010, 03:22 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post

The mistake your making is that I'm pointing out a 17 goal season as an aberration for a guy that usually scores 30+. Higgins is on pace for 10 when he usually scores 20+. Get it?
But Higgins started to regress last year. 12 goals in 57 games, meaning that he would probably get close to 17 goals if he played a full 82 game season. His shooting percentage has declined with each progressive season.

What many people are trying to say is that it isn't an "off year" but rather a continued regression from last season, and there's no knowing if he will bounce back. It's entirely possible that Chris peaked early in his career. It happened with Prucha, who scored 52 goals in his first two seasons but never really regained form, so it's not such a far-fetched assumption that some players have career years early on and struggle to find that type of success again. Cheechoo is another example of this.

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01-06-2010, 03:28 PM
  #84
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I just think 2009 was a bad calendar year for him. 11 goals total. Turn the page.

He already has 1 in 2010.


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01-06-2010, 03:31 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Really? How many Montreal games did you watch over the past four seasons, exactly?
I don't make a habit of counting. A lot more than you did, apparently.

Quote:
20+ goals over three consecutive seasons = consistency. If you don't like him, fine. Don't use this "limited skill set" BS on me because he's had a rough start and used to play with Koivu and now plays on a team that doesn't have a real #1 center.
- Consistency and Higgins are not words that go together.

- I don't like him? Where did I say that? My liking him has no bearing on his value as compared to O' Sullivan, or Cole or Williams (i.e. other players who were dealt for O'Sullivan). That's why his name was brought up. That's also when you interjected and made this a conversation about Higgins and began comparing him to Adam Graves and Tony Amonte.

- You want to talk about BS? Here's some BS for you: rough start, rough year, snakebit. These are cliches you are using in lieu of actually trying to analyze the matter at hand, probably because that's a little too in depth for you.

- By mentioning Koivu, you're simply making my point for me. Koivu is a solid playmaking center, and a very good fit for Higgins. That's two things the Rangers DON'T have.

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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
but why get rid of him then... why not try to rid ourselves of players like Kotalik, Avery, Lisin, Drury (who is a shell of his former self) etc...

he has shown he can pop 25 goals... he is only 26 years old. He is good defensively and is pretty good on the forecheck. He does bust his ass out there. This is he problem w/ the NYR. Higgins should be part of the solution. he is a perfect 2nd/3rd line tweener. he is pay isn't overboared by any means. he brings good attitude to the team as well.

but no... we need to keep the Kotaliks, Lisins, Avery's, Drury's, Voros', Boyles of the game instead. These players are the players (maybe not lisin) that we should be looking to cut bait with. Higgins should be part of this teams future. Unfortunately he probably won't be.
You get rid of Higgins because you CAN'T get rid of any of the players you mentioned. You get rid of Higgins because he's one of the few players on the team who fit all of the following criteria: not untouchable (like Henk and Gabby), expendable (because we already have several players who offer the same things he does and do them better - Callahan and, before his neutering, Avery), and he actually has some value around the league (unlike Kotalik, Drury, Lisin, Brashear, Rozsival, Redden), although not that much.

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01-06-2010, 03:32 PM
  #86
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You do not score 20+ goals three seasons in a row because of "circumstance", unless maybe that "circumstance" is named Gretzky or Lemieux. If that were the case we would have at least 2 other players with 10 goals simply because of Gaborik.

Straka and Nylander are both very skilled players. The year they played with Jagr where he scored 123 points, they had 22 and 23 goals. That year Higgins, playing on a team where the points leader had 65 (and was named Kovalev) scored 23.

If anyone could score 20+ goals just because they were put into offensive minded situations, salaries would be a lot lower because there would be more production from different people. That is not the case and should be apparent to anyone with half a brain, or watched the numerous experiments the Rangers have tried and failed over the past decade.

Higgens has his limits but he is not an untalented player. Even playing on the 2nd/3rd line without a primo playmaker, he should be on pace for more than 9 goals. Which puts him in the same underachieving boat as half the team.

Why some people continue to push this "no talent" agenda I will never understand.

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01-06-2010, 03:40 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
You do not score 20+ goals three seasons in a row because of "circumstance", unless maybe that "circumstance" is named Gretzky or Lemieux. If that were the case we would have at least 2 other players with 10 goals simply because of Gaborik.

Straka and Nylander are both very skilled players. The year they played with Jagr where he scored 123 points, they had 22 and 23 goals. That year Higgins, playing on a team where the points leader had 65 (and was named Kovalev) scored 23.

If anyone could score 20+ goals just because they were put into offensive minded situations, salaries would be a lot lower because there would be more production from different people. That is not the case and should be apparent to anyone with half a brain, or watched the numerous experiments the Rangers have tried and failed over the past decade.

Higgens has his limits but he is not an untalented player. Even playing on the 2nd/3rd line without a primo playmaker, he should be on pace for more than 9 goals. Which puts him in the same underachieving boat as half the team.

Why some people continue to push this "no talent" agenda I will never understand.
Offensive minded situations? That phrase can include many things. The key is that certain players excel in specific types of offensive minded situations. Higgins, for example, doesn't have the talent to beat players with his moves, with his skating, with his hands, with his shot (which is probably why some people tend to think he doesn't have much talent). The situations where Higgins does do well in are the points in the game where he ends up with a situation that doesn't really rely on him beating opponents with skill. You don't have to be very skilled to put the puck in the open net. Not usually, anyway.

What has been said about Higgins all year? What's the big complaint? Shooting wide, shooting right into the goalie, etc. That isn't new for Higgins. Those have always been a problem for him. Playing with a guy like Koivu, for example, gave Higgins a lot of opportunities where all he had to do is put the puck in an open net. All he had to do was beat a goaltender who was forced to move very quickly from side to side. Higgins scores almost all his goals around the net. Think about most of the chances he's blown this season. A lot of shots from the circles, from outside the slot. He was blowing the same chances in Montreal.

Who is going to set him up with unblowable chances, if you will, here? Only Gaborik and Prospal are possibilities, and he really hasn't played all that much with them. Not to mention that this team's coach shuffles the lines more often than a deck of cards get shuffled during a game of poker.

Also, the Nylander and Straka comparisons aren't really relevant. Neither players game resembles Higgins, nor does Jagr's resemble that of the players Higgins was playing with. Different players and different situations. Different offensive-minded situations.

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01-06-2010, 03:43 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
You get rid of Higgins because you CAN'T get rid of any of the players you mentioned. You get rid of Higgins because he's one of the few players on the team who fit all of the following criteria: not untouchable (like Henk and Gabby), expendable (because we already have several players who offer the same things he does and do them better - Callahan and, before his neutering, Avery), and he actually has some value around the league (unlike Kotalik, Drury, Lisin, Brashear, Rozsival, Redden), although not that much.
I think he might have some decent value around the TD... when PO teams would take a flier on him and give us a 3rdish rd pick.

but again this is what is wrong w/ the Rangers. Just because we CAN get rid of him doesn't mean we SHOULD get rid of him. But time and time again we get rid of players we should keep and sign players we should stay the **** away from.

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01-06-2010, 03:44 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
but why get rid of him then... why not try to rid ourselves of players like Kotalik, Avery, Lisin, Drury (who is a shell of his former self) etc...

he has shown he can pop 25 goals... he is only 26 years old. He is good defensively and is pretty good on the forecheck. He does bust his ass out there. This is he problem w/ the NYR. Higgins should be part of the solution. he is a perfect 2nd/3rd line tweener. he is pay isn't overboared by any means. he brings good attitude to the team as well.

but no... we need to keep the Kotaliks, Lisins, Avery's, Drury's, Voros', Boyles of the game instead. These players are the players (maybe not lisin) that we should be looking to cut bait with. Higgins should be part of this teams future. Unfortunately he probably won't be.
I agree regardless of all the excuses for him playing bad this year it still is only half a season with him....He is only 26 and it would be dumb not to keep him at years end...he is a perfect third line player this team needs and no doubt he will pot 20 goals again....but like the above poster said...we prob wont keep him

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01-06-2010, 03:48 PM
  #90
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Higgins is a Drury and Cally clone. But cally gets all the praise, higgy gets none. I think that Higgy's pay is about right for what he brings to the team. He really should stay and help this team, but b/c of all the crappy contracts handed out he will probably be traded or let go. Drury is on the decline and is way way way way overpaid and will continue to get worse these next two years.

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01-06-2010, 03:50 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
I think he might have some decent value around the TD... when PO teams would take a flier on him and give us a 3rdish rd pick.

but again this is what is wrong w/ the Rangers. Just because we CAN get rid of him doesn't mean we SHOULD get rid of him. But time and time again we get rid of players we should keep and sign players we should stay the **** away from.
But we DON'T need him. Callahan and Avery are fine as third line wings. You move Higgins because he IS expendable.

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01-06-2010, 03:52 PM
  #92
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The thing about keeping Higgins is that the Rangers don't have a lot of money coming off the books this year. Staal will be getting a pay raise and so will Girardi if the Rangers opt to retain him.

They need to spend their money wisely, and spending another $2 million for Higgins who may not regain his scoring touch, especially on this team considering the way it is currently constructed, is a bad idea. The only way Higgins should be re-signed is if he takes a massive pay cut, like something alone the lines of a $1 million decrease in pay.

Like Trxjw said, the Rangers need more skill players on this team, as they already have a surplus of grinders. Higgins is a redundant piece on this team. That $2.3 million should be not be spent on a 3rd liner.

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01-06-2010, 03:53 PM
  #93
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It's pretty clear that Ranger fans do not watch Oiler games very often if at all.

First off, Patrick O'Sullivan is one of the most useless players in the NHL. He only shows up to 25% of 50/50 battles and he only wins 25% of the 25% he shows up for. This guy is the definition of soft. How someone could be interested in O'Sullivan and not Cogliano is pure craziness.

As for Cogliano, he's had to play with Ethan Rifles for the past two years and Ethan's pathetic play cannot be underestimated. This year he's spend the majority of his time with Moreau and Stortini with basically zero PP time.

How Cogliano has managed to keep a +2 rating for the season playing with junk is pretty amazing.

PP Points/60

Cogliano - 5.04
Hemsky - 4.71
Penner - 4.27
Gagner - 4.24
O'Sullivan - 2.65

The problem is Quinn and his cronies basically refuse to play Cogliano on the PP even though he has the best numbers.

Goals for/goals against on ice per 60

Cogliano - 0.23
Gagner - negative 0.33
O'Sullivan - negative 1.53
Horcoff - negative 1.65

As you see, Cogliano is one of the only Oilers that is managing to keep the puck out of the net. The problem isn't so much that Cogliano is struggling, the problem is Cogliano hasn't been given an opportunity to make an impact, even though he's one of the only players managing to win the goals for against battle.

The only forward who scored more goals than Cogliano last year was Hemsky and the pathetic coaching staff reward Cogs by chaining him to the 4th line with Moreau.

But yeah, if you'd take Patrick O'Pathetic over Cogliano then you're obviously mentally challenged or you've never watched Edmonton play and are just talking out of your *** from looking at some boxcar numbers.

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01-06-2010, 03:55 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
But we DON'T need him. Callahan and Avery are fine as third line wings. You move Higgins because he IS expendable.
avery is not fine... avery is absolutely awful this year... has been invisible almost the entire year... I would much rather get rid of Avery than Higgins, if at all possible. And he has probably missed more wide open opportunities than Higgins this year.

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01-06-2010, 04:04 PM
  #95
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But Higgins started to regress last year. 12 goals in 57 games, meaning that he would probably get close to 17 goals if he played a full 82 game season. His shooting percentage has declined with each progressive season.
.
Hmmm...can't really say he regressed last season. He had several injuries of the nagging variety. It was more of an injury-filled than a regress.

Often, players have a difficult time getting it back after an injury-filled season. Hopefully he gets it back and finds his stide. We could use another 15-20 goals from Higgins; between now and April.


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01-06-2010, 04:34 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I don't make a habit of counting. A lot more than you did, apparently.
I highly doubt that.

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- Consistency and Higgins are not words that go together.
3 20+ goal seasons in a row = consistent - regardless of what YOUR definition is.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
- I don't like him? Where did I say that? My liking him has no bearing on his value as compared to O' Sullivan, or Cole or Williams (i.e. other players who were dealt for O'Sullivan). That's why his name was brought up. That's also when you interjected and made this a conversation about Higgins and began comparing him to Adam Graves and Tony Amonte.
No, I didn't compare him to Graves and Amonte. I said that players have had "off" years that aren't necessarily indicative of their play over a career. I didn't compare them as players, I compared them as relative numbers.

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- You want to talk about BS? Here's some BS for you: rough start, rough year, snakebit. These are cliches you are using in lieu of actually trying to analyze the matter at hand, probably because that's a little too in depth for you.
As opposed to BS your spouting? He had good line mates? He was spoon fed 20+ goals/year for three consecutive years? Koivu's career high point total is 75. He had 50, 56, 75, & 62 points in the years Higgins was there - those numbers were similar to Gomez' last year and EVERYONE couldn't wait to run him out of town. Higgins wasn't playing with Crosby, Malkin, or Thornton and I'm not the guy dismissing a career over a bad (goal scoring wise) 42 games.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
- By mentioning Koivu, you're simply making my point for me. Koivu is a solid playmaking center, and a very good fit for Higgins. That's two things the Rangers DON'T have.
I agree that the Rangers are weak up the middle, but I also think Higgins (and Drury) suffer from the same affliction of pressing too much and simply trying to hard.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
You get rid of Higgins because you CAN'T get rid of any of the players you mentioned. You get rid of Higgins because he's one of the few players on the team who fit all of the following criteria: not untouchable (like Henk and Gabby), expendable (because we already have several players who offer the same things he does and do them better - Callahan and, before his neutering, Avery), and he actually has some value around the league (unlike Kotalik, Drury, Lisin, Brashear, Rozsival, Redden), although not that much.
Avery and Higgins are completely different players. In any event, my point is WHY do you want to get rid of a guy with little trade value for another guy with little trade value. It's POINTLESS. And Higgins comes off our books at the end of the year if he really turns out to be more useless in the 2nd half of the season. O'Sullivan is a nearly 3 million/year cap hit for another year (2010/11). Why the hell would you want that over Higgins? Cogliano is an RFA at the end of this year and by most measures has regressed in his NHL career - 4 G and 6 A in 43 games for a "speed" team. These players are all so god-damned similar that this entire thread is useless.

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01-06-2010, 04:38 PM
  #97
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Horcoff, O'Sullivan, Nilson, Grebeshkov

for

Rozsival, Kotalik ,Girardi, Lisin,Higgins, Valliquette

what , It could happen,haha

that's what like 15 million coming in and say 13 going out?


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01-06-2010, 05:24 PM
  #98
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Horcoff, O'Sullivan, Nilson, Grebeshkov

for

Rozsival, Kotalik ,Girardi, Lisin,Higgins, Valliquette

what , It could happen,haha

that's what like 15 million coming in and say 13 going out?
Yeah, no.

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01-06-2010, 05:43 PM
  #99
RangerFan10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Yeah, because the sky's the limit with Higgins.
I didn't say I wanted Higgins, but at least he's gone after next season.

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01-06-2010, 06:04 PM
  #100
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I would be interested in Cogliano but only if he came relatively cheap. The guy had a 45 point rookie campaign couple years ago and is stuck on 4th line duties in Edmonton. Cogs is RFA after this season.

O'Sullivan's cap hit is just under 3 mill next season. I just dont see him as anything special. No thanks.

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