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01-06-2010, 04:49 PM
  #1
mm6492
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The Flyers Mismanagement of Assets

The Flyers have made man moves over the past few years, trading many players and picks. Looking back on these moves, have we mismanaged in the salary cap era? Have we hurt our future in an attempt to win now year after year?

TRADES
Josh Gratton and 2 2nd Round Picks for Denis Gauthier
Joni Pitkanen (former 1st) and Geoff Sanferson for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul
2nd Round Pick for Martin Biron
1st Round Pick for Rights to negotiate with Hartnell and Timonen
1st round Pick for Steve Eminger
Steve Eminger and Steve Downie (former 1st) for Matt Carle
Denis Gauthier and 2nd Round Pick for Patrik Hersley and Ned Lukacevic
Scottie Upshall and 2nd Round Pick for Daniel Carcillo
Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa (former 1st) and two first round draft picks for Chris Pronger

MAJOR FREE AGENTS
Daniel Briere: 8 Years 52 Million
Scott Hartnell: 6 Year 25.2 Million
Kimmo Timonen: 6 Years 37.8 Million


Looking at the trades, the Flyers have made many mistakes. We paid 2 2nd round picks for Gauthier, then paid a 2nd round pick to get rid of him. We gave up a 1st round pick in a deep draft for Eminger, who we soon flipped for Matt Carle but had to give up another former 1st round pick (Steve Downie). They had too give up a 2nd round pick along with Upshall just to get under the salary cap and have the ability to bring up Giroux.

Since 2006 IMO, the Flyers have mismanaged many of there assets, and I wonder/expect to feel the impact of this in the next few years as our prospect pool drys out. We have not replenished the system the way that I feel is neccesary for a NHL team to do in the salary cap era.

I understand that this has been discussed before, and brought up many times, but I just want to get peoples take on how we have managed many of our assets.


Last edited by mm6492: 01-06-2010 at 05:03 PM.
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01-06-2010, 04:53 PM
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explains some of the mistakes the Flyers have made in recent memory.

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01-06-2010, 04:56 PM
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Not only does this post give only side of the argument without taking anything else into consideration, but isn't there already a thread for Holmgren discussion?

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01-06-2010, 04:56 PM
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remember when we were not going to trade away out future?

Patrick Sharp for that guy trade should be on that list

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01-06-2010, 04:58 PM
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Josh Gratton and 2 2nd Round Picks for Denis Gauthier
Joni Pitkanen (former 1st) and Geoff Sanferson for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul
1st round Pick for Steve Eminger
Steve Eminger and Steve Downie (former 1st) for Matt Carle
Scottie Upshall and 2nd Round Pick for Daniel Carcillo

Were all gross overpayments. You could even argue that Holmgren overpaid for Pronger, by opting to send Lupul there. I mean, did the Ducks really need a 4+ million dollar Lupul with Selanne on the books, and Ryan looking for a raise? Of course not. He could have saved a first by sending Lupul to the Preds for whatever, and moving the rest for Pronger, since the Ducks were mainly looking for cap-space in the deal.

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01-06-2010, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoDu View Post
remember when we were not going to trade away out future?

Patrick Sharp for that guy trade should be on that list
1) that predated that whole thing.

2) Sharp asked to leave.

While the Sharp trade looks bad, no one thought much of it at the time other than thinking we gave up a nice role player. If anyone, and I mean ANYONE (including Chicago), thought Sharp was going to be this good at that point...they were way out and away from the company line.

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01-06-2010, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Not only does this post give only side of the argument without taking anything else into consideration, but isn't there already a thread for Holmgren discussion?
That thread is talking about firing Holmgrem and so on.

This thread is intended to analyze and discuss the mistakes we have made recently, and more importantly, how these mistakes are going to affect us in the near future.

Also, you are welcome to give the other side of the argument if you feel that I have left it out. I just tried to present the facts on why I beleive we have mismanaged our assets, and post many of the examples of such (or what people would consider examples).

@ RoDu: I probably forgot a few of them, including Sharp, as there were so many to list

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01-06-2010, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
The Flyers have made man moves over the past few years, trading many players and picks. Looking back on these moves, have we mismanaged in the salary cap era? Have we hurt our future in an attempt to win now year after year?

TRADES
Josh Gratton and 2 2nd Round Picks for Denis Gauthier
Joni Pitkanen (former 1st) and Geoff Sanferson for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul
2nd Round Pick for Martin Biron
1st round Pick for Steve Eminger
Steve Eminger and Steve Downie (former 1st) for Matt Carle
Denis Gauthier and 2nd Round Pick for Patrik Hersley and Ned Lukacevic
Scottie Upshall and 2nd Round Pick for Daniel Carcillo
Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa (former 1st) and two first round draft picks for Chris Pronger

MAJOR FREE AGENTS
Daniel Briere: 8 Years 52 Million
Scott Hartnell: 6 Year 25.2 Million
Kimmo Timonen: 6 Years 37.8 Million


Looking at the trades, the Flyers have made many mistakes. We paid 2 2nd round picks for Gauthier, then paid a 2nd round pick to get rid of him. We gave up a 1st round pick in a deep draft for Eminger, who we soon flipped for Matt Carle but had to give up another former 1st round pick (Steve Downie). They had too give up a 2nd round pick along with Upshall just to get under the salary cap and have the ability to bring up Giroux.

Since 2006 IMO, the Flyers have mismanaged many of there assets, and I wonder/expect to feel the impact of this in the next few years as our prospect pool drys out. We have not replenished the system the way that I feel is neccesary for a NHL team to do in the salary cap era.

I understand that this has been discussed before, and brought up many times, but I just want to get peoples take on how we have managed many of our assets.
Don't forget they traded another 1st rounder to get an early crack at Hartnell and Timonen.

It's the track record of a lot of teams that feel they're a contender.

Certainly, some assets have been poorly managed-especially draft picks. What troubles me more is that there still seems to be no set plan, as far as what kind of team they're going to be.

The organization is far too reactionary and knee jerk in making decisions-and when I saw that was going to continue under Holmgren, it's when I started questioning him as GM.

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01-06-2010, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
1) that predated that whole thing.

2) Sharp asked to leave.

While the Sharp trade looks bad, no one thought much of it at the time other than thinking we gave up a nice role player. If anyone, and I mean ANYONE (including Chicago), thought Sharp was going to be this good at that point...they were way out and away from the company line.
I agree with this. Sharp was not getting ice time here and wanted to leave. Many people beleived he would devlop into a solid player, but not at the level that he has reached.

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01-06-2010, 05:02 PM
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Given the way that Sharp was being used at the time, Can't really blame him for asking out.

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01-06-2010, 05:02 PM
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Umberger deal should be in there, as that was a rather good trade on Holmgren's part.

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01-06-2010, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
Don't forget they traded another 1st rounder to get an early crack at Hartnell and Timonen.

It's the track record of a lot of teams that feel they're a contender.

Certainly, some assets have been poorly managed-especially draft picks. What troubles me more is that there still seems to be no set plan, as far as what kind of team they're going to be.

The organization is far too reactionary and knee jerk in making decisions-and when I saw that was going to continue under Holmgren, it's when I started questioning him as GM.
that first was Nashville's right?

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01-06-2010, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
Don't forget they traded another 1st rounder to get an early crack at Hartnell and Timonen.

It's the track record of a lot of teams that feel they're a contender.

Certainly, some assets have been poorly managed-especially draft picks. What troubles me more is that there still seems to be no set plan, as far as what kind of team they're going to be.

The organization is far too reactionary and knee jerk in making decisions-and when I saw that was going to continue under Holmgren, it's when I started questioning him as GM.
I had that in there, deleted the whole thing by accident and when I re-did it, I forgot it . Thank God for the edit button



Many teams track record suggests such behavior as this for a year ro two, but we have been doing it for quite a while, and as you said, still have no plan. This worries me.

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01-06-2010, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Umberger deal should be in there, as that was a rather good trade on Holmgren's part.
I was going to add in another list with some of his better moves (Forseberg trade, Coburn trade, Umberger trade). But even in these trades, we screw up teh assets.

We get a 1st for Umberger, draft Sbisa, then trade him in the Pronger deal, along with 2 1st round picks (and Lupul).

We get Upshall and a 1st in the Forseberg deal. We then give the 1st right back to Nashville for the rights to 2 upcoming UFA's, then package Upshall with a draft pick for Carcillo, for salary cap issues. Even Parent, the lasting peive from teh deal, has battled injuries ever since being here.


The Coburn deal is his pride and joy.

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01-06-2010, 05:09 PM
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that first was Nashville's right?
It was Nashville's first that was oringinally acquired by the Flyers in the Forsberg trade; the Preds used it to select Jonathan Blum.

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01-06-2010, 05:09 PM
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Why don't we have a full blown experiment to track the entirety of asset management post-lockout (or under Holmgren's tenure if everyone prefers that)?

We can follow each trail and decide for ourselves at the end if what the final result was worth it.

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01-06-2010, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
I had that in there, deleted the whole thing by accident and when I re-did it, I forgot it . Thank God for the edit button



Many teams track record suggests such behavior as this for a year ro two, but we have been doing it for quite a while, and as you said, still have no plan. This worries me.
It's what I call the Clarke School Of Management.

He always seemed to identify the main rival, and then would try to emulate them...while missing the key thing.

He tried to emulate the Devils by getting a tougher corps of defensemen...but neglected to find a Brodeur.

He saw them get eviscerated by the Sabres and decided to get smaller and faster....but neglected to get talented, smaller faster guys.

Looking at the roster, it's always been talented, except for the 2006-07 team. It's just never been a very good mix of guys, except for a year here and a year there, when everything came together perfectly.

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01-06-2010, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
I was going to add in another list with some of his better moves (Forseberg trade, Coburn trade, Umberger trade). But even in these trades, we screw up teh assets.

We get a 1st for Umberger, draft Sbisa, then trade him in the Pronger deal, along with 2 1st round picks (and Lupul).

We get Upshall and a 1st in the Forseberg deal. We then give the 1st right back to Nashville for the rights to 2 upcoming UFA's, then package Upshall with a draft pick for Carcillo, for salary cap issues. Even Parent, the lasting peive from teh deal, has battled injuries ever since being here.


The Coburn deal is his pride and joy.
Eh, you need to sort of include everything because they all play off of one another...and it also establishes a pattern of strengths and weaknesses in Holmgren as a GM.

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01-06-2010, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Eh, you need to sort of include everything because they all play off of one another...and it also establishes a pattern of strengths and weaknesses in Holmgren as a GM.
I understand, however, I was making this thread more to look at our mismanagement of assets, not to talk about Holmgrems abilities as a GM. Of course taht will come into play in this discussion, but that is not the main point. I am more interested in how people think this will begin to affect us in the comining years (even this year), and if we can suceed in the new NHL with this type of strategy.

If someone wants to make a list of the other deals, feel free, and I would gladly include it in the 1st post.

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01-06-2010, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
Looking at the roster, it's always been talented, except for the 2006-07 team. It's just never been a very good mix of guys, except for a year here and a year there, when everything came together perfectly.
Very true. Although I'd say the 06-07 team had some talent - unfortunately, it was a perfect storm of injuries and inexperience.

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01-06-2010, 05:25 PM
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Date To Philly From For

9-Nov-06 Darren Reid Tampa Bay Lightning Daniel Corso

13-Nov-06 Todd Fedoruk Anaheim Mighty Ducks 2007 4th Rounder (Justin Vaive) + futures

16-Dec-06 Alexei Zhitnik New York Islanders Freddy Meyer & 2007 Conditional 3rd Rounder (Mark Katic)

20-Dec-06 Mike York New York Islanders Randy Robitaille &
2008 5th Rounder (Matthew Martin)

15-Feb-07 Ryan Parent,Scottie Upshall,2007 1st Rounder (transferred back to Nashville - Jonathon Blum) & 2007 3rd Rounder (transferred to WASH - Phil Desimone) Nashville Predators Peter Forsberg

24-Feb-07 Braydon Coburn Atlanta Thrashers Alexei Zhitnik

26-Feb-06 Lasse Kukkonen & 2007 3rd Rounder (Garrett Klotz) Chicago Blackhawks Kyle Calder

27-Feb-07 Martin Biron Buffalo Sabres 2007 2nd Rounder (T.J. Brennan)

4-Jun-07 futures Nashville Predators Matt Ellison

18-Jun-07 Kimmo Timonen & Scott Hartnell Nashville Predators Nashville's 2007 1st Rounder (previously obtained - Jonathon Blum)

23-Jun-07 2007 2nd Rounder (Kevin Marshall) Washington Captials 2008 2nd Rounder (Dmitri Kugryshev) + Nashville's 2007 3rd Rounder (Phil Desimone)

1-Jul-07 Jason Smith & Joffrey Lupul Edmonton Oilers Joni Pitkanen , Geoff Sanderson & 2009 3rd rounder (transferred to Calgary - Ryan Howse)

10-Dec-07 2009 7th Rounder Dallas Stars Jussi Timonen

19-Dec-07 Jim Vandermeer Chicago Blackhawks Ben Eager

19-Feb-08 Jaroslav Modry Los Angeles Kings 2008 3rd rounder (Geordie Wudrick)

20-Feb-08 2009 3rd rounder (Simon Bertilsson) Calgary Flames Jim Vandermeer

25-Feb-08 Vaclav Prospal Tampa Bay Lightning Alexandre Picard & 2009 2nd rounder (Richard Panik)

6-Jun-08 Danny Syvret Edmonton Oilers Ryan Potulny

18-Jun-08 2008 7th rounder (Joacim Eriksson) & 2009 conditional pick Tampa Bay Lightning Vaclav Prospal

20-Jun-08 Colorado's 2008 1st Rounder (prev. acquired - Lucas Sbisa) + 2008 3rd Rounder (Marc-Andre Bourdon) Columbus Blue Jackets R.J. Umberger + 2008 4th Rounder (Drew Olson)

20-Jun-08 Steve Eminger & 2008 3rd Rounder (Jacob Deserres) Washington Capitals 2008 1st Rounder(John Carlson)

21-Jun-08 2009 7th Rounder Anahiem Mighty Ducks 2008 7th Rounder (Nick Pryor)

24-Jun-08 Janne Niskala Nashville Predators Triston Grant + 2009 7th rounder

30-Jun-08 Tim Ramholt Calgary Flames Kyle Greentree

30-Jun-08 2009 6th Rounder (Dave Labrecque) Tampa Bay Lightning Janne Niskala

1-Jul-08 Patrick Hersley + Ned Lukacevic Los Angeles Kings Denis Gauthier + 2010 2nd Rounder

13-Oct-08 Andrew Alberts Boston Bruins Ned Lukacevic + conditional 2009 fourth-round pick (Lane MacDermid)

30-Oct-08 Josh Gratton Nashville Predators Tim Ramholt

7-Nov-08 Matt Carle & San Jose Sharks’ 2009 3rd rounder (Simon Bertilsson) Tampa Bay Lightning Steve Eminger, Steve Downie and Tampa Bay’s 2009 4th rounder (previously acquired)

4-Mar-09 Daniel Carcillo Phoenix Coyotes Scottie Upshall & 2011 2nd Rounder

4-Mar-09 Kyle McLaren San Jose Sharks 2009 6th Rounder

6-Mar-09 2009 6th Rounder San Jose Sharks Kyle McLaren (failed physical - trade nullified)

26-Jun-09 Chris Pronger & Ryan Dingle Anaheim Mighty Ducks Joffrey Lupul. Lucas Sbias, 2009 1st rounder (John Moore) , 2010 1st rounder and 2010 or 2011 conditional 3rd rounder

23-Sep-09 Patrik Hersley Nashville Predators futures

20-Oct-09 Stefan Legein Columbus Columbus Blue Jackets Michael Ratchuk





Thanks to Flyers History.com
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/trade.cgi

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01-06-2010, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
The Flyers have made man moves over the past few years, trading many players and picks. Looking back on these moves, have we mismanaged in the salary cap era? Have we hurt our future in an attempt to win now year after year?

TRADES
Josh Gratton and 2 2nd Round Picks for Denis Gauthier
Joni Pitkanen (former 1st) and Geoff Sanferson for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul
2nd Round Pick for Martin Biron
1st Round Pick for Rights to negotiate with Hartnell and Timonen
1st round Pick for Steve Eminger
Steve Eminger and Steve Downie (former 1st) for Matt Carle
Denis Gauthier and 2nd Round Pick for Patrik Hersley and Ned Lukacevic
Scottie Upshall and 2nd Round Pick for Daniel Carcillo
Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa (former 1st) and two first round draft picks for Chris Pronger

MAJOR FREE AGENTS
Daniel Briere: 8 Years 52 Million
Scott Hartnell: 6 Year 25.2 Million
Kimmo Timonen: 6 Years 37.8 Million


Looking at the trades, the Flyers have made many mistakes. We paid 2 2nd round picks for Gauthier, then paid a 2nd round pick to get rid of him. We gave up a 1st round pick in a deep draft for Eminger, who we soon flipped for Matt Carle but had to give up another former 1st round pick (Steve Downie). They had too give up a 2nd round pick along with Upshall just to get under the salary cap and have the ability to bring up Giroux.

Since 2006 IMO, the Flyers have mismanaged many of there assets, and I wonder/expect to feel the impact of this in the next few years as our prospect pool drys out. We have not replenished the system the way that I feel is neccesary for a NHL team to do in the salary cap era.

I understand that this has been discussed before, and brought up many times, but I just want to get peoples take on how we have managed many of our assets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
Josh Gratton and 2 2nd Round Picks for Denis Gauthier
Joni Pitkanen (former 1st) and Geoff Sanferson for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul
1st round Pick for Steve Eminger
Steve Eminger and Steve Downie (former 1st) for Matt Carle
Scottie Upshall and 2nd Round Pick for Daniel Carcillo

Were all gross overpayments. You could even argue that Holmgren overpaid for Pronger, by opting to send Lupul there. I mean, did the Ducks really need a 4+ million dollar Lupul with Selanne on the books, and Ryan looking for a raise? Of course not. He could have saved a first by sending Lupul to the Preds for whatever, and moving the rest for Pronger, since the Ducks were mainly looking for cap-space in the deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Eh, you need to sort of include everything because they all play off of one another...and it also establishes a pattern of strengths and weaknesses in Holmgren as a GM.
This thread kinda sucks to be honest. I mean, I am hopped up on cough syrup right now, but it seems so one sided.

Lupul was a lazy overpaid turd, we are lucky to have dumped him to Anaheim. We got Coburn who still has VALUE for freaking Zhitnik. We turned Downie and Eminger into Carle, which worked out really well. Eminger and Downie both suck. Carle is on our first pair and is doing well. I am sick of the Upshall-Carcillo racket. I'm no fan of Carcillo, but whatever. Upshall is only producing with lots of PP time, time he would never get here.

The Jones call up and Gauthier trades were both awful, but it shows that Homer is true to his word, which is something the players respect. In retrospect, when you look at some of these deals years later some are bound to look awful and some are bound to look good.

You can play this stupid guessing game and re-evaluate things all day, but the fact of the matter is 2nd round picks have next to no value in the NHL. The percentage of 2nd rounders who turn into anything is low.

Why dont you guys look up the names of the people drafted with those picks. No great shakes there I bet.

I mean, we should be proud the Flyers are so good at drafting in the later part of the 1st round of the draft, that's incredible.

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01-06-2010, 05:28 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
This thread kinda sucks to be honest. I mean, I am hopped up on cough syrup right now, but it seems so one sided.

Lupul was a lazy overpaid turd, we are lucky to have dumped him to Anaheim. We got Coburn who still has VALUE for freaking Zhitnik. We turned Downie and Eminger into Carle, which worked out really well. Eminger and Downie both suck. Carle is on our first pair and is doing well. I am sick of the Upshall-Carcillo racket. I'm no fan of Carcillo, but whatever. Upshall is only producing with lots of PP time, time he would never get here.

The Jones call up and Gauthier trades were both awful, but it shows that Homer is true to his word, which is something the players respect. In retrospect, when you look at some of these deals years later some are bound to look awful and some are bound to look good.

You can play this stupid guessing game and re-evaluate things all day, but the fact of the matter is 2nd round picks have next to no value in the NHL. The percentage of 2nd rounders who turn into anything is low.

Why dont you guys look up the names of the people drafted with those picks. No great shakes there I bet.

I mean, we should be proud the Flyers are so good at drafting in the later part of the 1st round of the draft, that's incredible.
Downie has played very well for Tampa this year so far. He'd be a great player to have in Philly right now.

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01-06-2010, 05:45 PM
  #24
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The answer to your questions is yes and yes.

I think it is a safe bet that the poor cap and asset management is going come back to haunt us

It is crucial to keep pumping out cheap talent if you are a team that insists on spending up to the cap. Trading four first rounders in two years is going to make it difficult to produce that talent. At some point the big club is going to feel it when they have no quality prospects to rely on to balance out the bloated salaries. It also means fewer assets to make deals in the future. Homer has pretty much locked is into this roster with bad contracts, no trade clauses, and no quality assets to make deals.

The cap management has already been haunting us. Our forward depth is significantly weaker than it was in 07-08. There is no space to improve the roster. There is no space to acquire a top flight goalie. Heck they may not even have enough space to re-sign Emery without trading someone else. They probably won't be able to afford to keep all three of Giroux, Gagne, and Carter. It's painful watching what was once an embarrassing riches of forwards suddenly dry up due to Homer's mismanagement. It will only get better with the long term contracts to aging players and no top flight prospects coming up for several years. Good times.

The best part is all of his mismanagement was to create a team that lacks the character and chemistry to win a championship.

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01-06-2010, 05:50 PM
  #25
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Posts: 6,507
vCash: 500
Trading that first round pick for Eminger continues to boil my blood, just as it did on draft day. George McPhee is still laughing about robbing Homer blind on that one and getting a future top-4 defenseman in John Carlson with the pick -- you know, the kid who won the WJC for the US yesterday with the OT goal against Canada.

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