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The Flyers Mismanagement of Assets

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Old
01-06-2010, 06:51 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
Downie has played very well for Tampa this year so far. He'd be a great player to have in Philly right now.
Agreed, especially considering how many battles along the boards this team loses. Downie is a lot of things, but he's tenacious along the boards and in front of the net. And his playmaking ability was really undervalued.

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01-06-2010, 07:12 PM
  #27
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I think hindsight is always 20/20. I would much rather win a Cup this year and be terrible for the next ten then have a Cup contender for the next ten but no Cup.

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01-06-2010, 07:16 PM
  #28
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I like how you mention which guys were first rounders that we gave up like the guys we got back were trash.

If you are going to do that kind of thing you need to show both sides of the story...
Lupul was a 1st round pick (7th overall)
Eminger was a 1st round pick (12th overall which is much higher than the one we gave up)
Also Biron, Pronger, Smith and Gauthier were all 1st rounders.

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01-06-2010, 07:23 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
I like how you mention which guys were first rounders that we gave up like the guys we got back were trash.

If you are going to do that kind of thing you need to show both sides of the story...
Lupul was a 1st round pick (7th overall)
Eminger was a 1st round pick (12th overall which is much higher than the one we gave up)
Also Biron, Pronger, Smith and Gauthier were all 1st rounders.
Lupul was a 1st rounder coming off a terrible season in Edmonton.

Eminger was at best a spare part in Washington, and had the Flyers signed him to an offer sheet, the compensation would have been less than a 1st rounder.

Biron was a 1st rounder ten years prior to being traded-and he had been pretty much a career back-up goalie.

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01-06-2010, 07:26 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
I like how you mention which guys were first rounders that we gave up like the guys we got back were trash.

If you are going to do that kind of thing you need to show both sides of the story...
Lupul was a 1st round pick (7th overall)
Eminger was a 1st round pick (12th overall which is much higher than the one we gave up)
Also Biron, Pronger, Smith and Gauthier were all 1st rounders.
The guys who I mentioned (Downie, Sbisa, Pitkanen ) were all young and still would be considered "prospects." The players you mentioned for the most part had moved past the 1st round pick status, and were established players. There is a difference IMO, and the main one is contract size and age.

Look at a team like Detroit. They continue to replenish through there own system. They have a few big contracts, though not HUGE (Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Rafalski) but have a continuous supply of young talent. The same thing can even be mentioned with a team like New Jersey. Both have been good for quite a while do to being able to resupply.

We are going to have a tough time resupplying in the near future. We had a few very good prospects (Giroux, JvR, Sbisa) who are now on our team or traded. We have a few more lesser guys on the way. But after that, we have nobody. We need to continue to stock up on young talent. We have failed in this regard recently.

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01-06-2010, 07:30 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think hindsight is always 20/20. I would much rather win a Cup this year and be terrible for the next ten then have a Cup contender for the next ten but no Cup.
The Cup is not guaranteed. You would rather put all your eggs in one basket for one year, then suck for 10 more.

I would rather create a quality team for all 11 years, replenished with young talent.

My percentages to win will be much greater then yours. But if you would rather go for it all, be my guest.

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01-06-2010, 08:31 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
The Cup is not guaranteed. You would rather put all your eggs in one basket for one year, then suck for 10 more.

I would rather create a quality team for all 11 years, replenished with young talent.

My percentages to win will be much greater then yours. But if you would rather go for it all, be my guest.
I am all for the win now school of thought. I know it isn't guaranteed but neither are first round picks. Even if you had three first round picks per year if you look at the drafts, they aren't all home runs. Let's take the Pronger trade for instance. Yes we gave up a lot. And clearly the Cup is not guaranteed this season. But Pronger is a Hall of Famer. Sbisa may be (probably not), and the first rounders may be (but probably not). I would rather have a Hall of Famer who can help us to win now than a bunch of picks that may never turn out to be anything (or even ones that may turn out to be HOF) and a defenseman that will be good and has a chance of being great (but I don't really see that happening). And Lupul was on his way out anyway. Basically what I am saying is that my thinking is like a power hitter in baseball. You are going to sacrifice average and strikeouts, but you are going to clean up on home runs and RBI's. Maybe we don't win a Cup this year or even next, but I would rather see them go for it now rather than sit back and hope their youth will be able to do it five years from now.

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01-06-2010, 08:51 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I am all for the win now school of thought. I know it isn't guaranteed but neither are first round picks. Even if you had three first round picks per year if you look at the drafts, they aren't all home runs. Let's take the Pronger trade for instance. Yes we gave up a lot. And clearly the Cup is not guaranteed this season. But Pronger is a Hall of Famer. Sbisa may be (probably not), and the first rounders may be (but probably not). I would rather have a Hall of Famer who can help us to win now than a bunch of picks that may never turn out to be anything (or even ones that may turn out to be HOF) and a defenseman that will be good and has a chance of being great (but I don't really see that happening). And Lupul was on his way out anyway. Basically what I am saying is that my thinking is like a power hitter in baseball. You are going to sacrifice average and strikeouts, but you are going to clean up on home runs and RBI's. Maybe we don't win a Cup this year or even next, but I would rather see them go for it now rather than sit back and hope their youth will be able to do it five years from now.
So what happens if you shoot your wad, and ice a team like the one we have now?

So not only did they trade away a ton of picks and prospects, but they won't have a Stanley Cup to show for it.

If you're going to grab the golden ring, you'd better have all your ducks in a row, otherwise don't outkick your coverage.

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01-06-2010, 08:52 PM
  #34
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They totally need a Wharton grad picking their players...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I am all for the win now school of thought.
Given the impending albatrosses of Briere and Timonen, it has to be win now.

And all of this is coming up because this set have not played well together. Nearly all here fancied this roster to be Cup worthy in September. It is truly 20/20 hindsight to criticize its construction now.

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01-06-2010, 08:54 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
So what happens if you shoot your wad, and ice a team like the one we have now?
Isn't that just the way it has turned out though? I am not sure it was possible to predict that this team would be this sparkless and impotent. The GM built this team, on paper. Good on him. They are lacklustre on ice, though. Bad on him. That's life.

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01-06-2010, 09:01 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Isn't that just the way it has turned out though? I am not sure it was possible to predict that this team would be this sparkless and impotent. The GM built this team, on paper. Good on him. They are lacklustre on ice, though. Bad on him. That's life.
The thing is, the GM has to anticipate the potential issues. Like having 6 of your top 8 forwards be more comfortable at center, like guys with the injury histories of Briere and Gagne getting hurt, like not having a sure thing in goal...

I was as guilty as anyone of overrating this team. The thing is, it's not my job to build a Stanley Cup winner. If it was, and this was the results I had assembled, I'd expect to be fired.

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01-06-2010, 09:25 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
Lupul was a 1st rounder coming off a terrible season in Edmonton.

Eminger was at best a spare part in Washington, and had the Flyers signed him to an offer sheet, the compensation would have been less than a 1st rounder.

Biron was a 1st rounder ten years prior to being traded-and he had been pretty much a career back-up goalie.
Pitkanen was a -25 the year before he was pretty much run out of town.
Downie kept proving over and over that he wasnt good enough to keep a consistent spot in the lineup.
Sbisa, although he may have a bright future has been sent down to juniors 2 years in a row so you really cant be sure what you have in him.

The point is, if he was going to point out the young 1s rounders we sent, its only fair to point out that we got some in return.

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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
The guys who I mentioned (Downie, Sbisa, Pitkanen ) were all young and still would be considered "prospects." The players you mentioned for the most part had moved past the 1st round pick status, and were established players. There is a difference IMO, and the main one is contract size and age.
Eminger and Lupul were drafted in the same year as Pitkanen so age has nothing to do with it and the size of the contract that they had we we traded for them was also very low.

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01-06-2010, 09:33 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
So what happens if you shoot your wad, and ice a team like the one we have now?

So not only did they trade away a ton of picks and prospects, but they won't have a Stanley Cup to show for it.

If you're going to grab the golden ring, you'd better have all your ducks in a row, otherwise don't outkick your coverage.
A) This season is far from over so you can't rule out a Stanley Cup.

B) Nothing is certain. Trading for the big guns to win now or waiting on prospects. At least when trading for the guys like Pronger you know what you are getting, and it is isn't because of Pronger that this team is in the position it is in. Trading for a sure thing (and when I say sure thing I don't mean a guaranteed Cup, I mean sure thing in the caliber of player you are getting) IMO is a better option than waiting and hoping on prospects/picks. Now that's different if you are a team like Tampa Bay or Carolina where youth is all you have. In this team's situation, first round picks the next three years (or however many they traded away) aren't going to help them for years to come. Look at JVR, yes he is a good player and will be, but it took him three years to even make it to the NHL. So is it better to wait three years and hope that whoever we got in the next draft turns out to be an NHL star in three years, or get a Hall of Famer on a team who appeared to only need one big presence on the blue line to get the Cup? I know it hasn't turned out like a story book ending thus far, but I'd rather gamble on a Hall of Famer to help win a cup than someone who has never and may never make an impact in the NHL.

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01-06-2010, 09:54 PM
  #39
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Carcillo trade quit bothering me a while ago. The 2nd hurts but it doesnt make me cringe like some of the others.

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01-06-2010, 10:01 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Trading that first round pick for Eminger continues to boil my blood, just as it did on draft day. George McPhee is still laughing about robbing Homer blind on that one and getting a future top-4 defenseman in John Carlson with the pick -- you know, the kid who won the WJC for the US yesterday with the OT goal against Canada.
That one still ticks me off, too. I was a big fan of Carlson that year and he was the one player I really wanted and hoped he would fall to our pick. I was so thrilled when I realized he was going to be there and then Homer pulled off that garbage trade.

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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think hindsight is always 20/20. I would much rather win a Cup this year and be terrible for the next ten then have a Cup contender for the next ten but no Cup.
Except many of us recognized some of these examples of asset mismanagement for what they were the minute they were made. The Eminger trade and Carcillo trade are examples.

As for the rest of your post, what do you mean? The Flyers have been exactly the thing you claim you don't want them to be. They are the annual contender that always falls short. They are always a piece or two away. Hasn't it dawned on your that their win now mentality hasn't brought them a Cup and maybe they need to change their approach?

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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
I like how you mention which guys were first rounders that we gave up like the guys we got back were trash.

If you are going to do that kind of thing you need to show both sides of the story...
Lupul was a 1st round pick (7th overall)
Eminger was a 1st round pick (12th overall which is much higher than the one we gave up)
Also Biron, Pronger, Smith and Gauthier were all 1st rounders.
This is ridiculous logic. These were established NHLers. They weren't first round picks any longer and their values varied from where they were drafted. Biron, Smith, Gauthier, Eminger didn't have first round value when we traded for them. They also did nothing for the farm system being they were established NHLers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
They totally need a Wharton grad picking their players...

Given the impending albatrosses of Briere and Timonen, it has to be win now.

And all of this is coming up because this set have not played well together. Nearly all here fancied this roster to be Cup worthy in September. It is truly 20/20 hindsight to criticize its construction now.
I don't think anyone is really criticizing the construction of the roster in this thread. It's more about criticizing contracts and the picks given away.

That being said, it's fair to say it is hindsight to criticize the construction of the roster. However, in fairness he did build a talented team on paper. I don't think the expectations were that unrealistic when you just look at what they had on paper. In my opinion the problem is they lack the intangibles to become a championship and that's something difficult to predict or measure as a fan.

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01-06-2010, 10:07 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Trading that first round pick for Eminger continues to boil my blood, just as it did on draft day. George McPhee is still laughing about robbing Homer blind on that one and getting a future top-4 defenseman in John Carlson with the pick -- you know, the kid who won the WJC for the US yesterday with the OT goal against Canada.
I think we've had this discussion and obviously it was a bad deal, but you do have to give Holmgren at least some credit for salvaging it with Carle who's been our 2nd best d-man this year.

But yeah, Carlson does look pretty darn good although I thought he was bigger. I also don't know if Downie ever would have gotten a fair shot in Philly considering the combo of O and B plus known agitator, look at the treatment Carcillo gets from the refs...

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01-06-2010, 10:07 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
The thing is, the GM has to anticipate the potential issues. Like having 6 of your top 8 forwards be more comfortable at center, like guys with the injury histories of Briere and Gagne getting hurt, like not having a sure thing in goal...

I was as guilty as anyone of overrating this team. The thing is, it's not my job to build a Stanley Cup winner. If it was, and this was the results I had assembled, I'd expect to be fired.
Me, too, or I certainly wouldn't be surprised by the axe, and if I had to petition to keep my job, it'd be touch-and-go.

At the same time, if I were Mr. Snider, I think it'd be reasonable to conclude that Holmgren has gathered good pieces, just not the right ones, and it's rare to accomplish both.

Carter, Giroux, Gagne, Coburn, Hartnell, Timonen (to a lesser extent) - they have all failed to meet the expectations of most observers.

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01-06-2010, 10:08 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
Josh Gratton and 2 2nd Round Picks for Denis Gauthier
Joni Pitkanen (former 1st) and Geoff Sanferson for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul
1st round Pick for Steve Eminger
Steve Eminger and Steve Downie (former 1st) for Matt Carle
Scottie Upshall and 2nd Round Pick for Daniel Carcillo

Were all gross overpayments.
The pittkanen for smith and Lupul was not overpayment.
That guy was never gonna get it done here. "A Disconnect"
Eminger and Downie for carle wasn't either. Just b/c everyine loved him didn't make him awesome

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01-06-2010, 10:13 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I don't think anyone is really criticizing the construction of the roster in this thread. It's more about criticizing contracts and the picks given away.
I'm not sure I see the distinction, but

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
That being said, it's fair to say it is hindsight to criticize the construction of the roster. However, in fairness he did build a talented team on paper. I don't think the expectations were that unrealistic when you just look at what they had on paper. In my opinion the problem is they lack the intangibles to become a championship and that's something difficult to predict or measure as a fan.
Well said.

On paper, it does indeed look fine. There's an element missing. Seemed like it was there early on, then *poof*. Something extraordinary happened and I'm not sure we will ever learn what it was.

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01-06-2010, 10:24 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post

We get Upshall and a 1st in the Forseberg deal. We then give the 1st right back to Nashville for the rights to 2 upcoming UFA's, then package Upshall with a draft pick for Carcillo, for salary cap issues. Even Parent, the lasting peive from teh deal, has battled injuries ever since being here.
You act like getting Timonen and Hartnell was wrong. Without Timonen the last two years, this team would have been in really bad shape defensively. I doubt we even make the playoffs without Timonen. Their contracts may be long term, but they are vital parts to the team as an entirety. You need to look at how everything pans out as a whole. Holmgren may have given up some picks he didn't need to, but we have never been a strong deep drafting team to begin with (meaning finding those gems after the first round). And trading the pick back to Nashville to talk to Timonen and Hartnell before anyone else was worth it.

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01-06-2010, 10:28 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
Eminger and Downie for carle wasn't either. Just b/c everyine loved him didn't make him awesome
I actually agree with you on the Downie front. He has done relatively nothing playing with above average (top 6 minutes, I believe) players in Tampa. I don't care if he is able to put up 10 more points than Carcillo, Downie is a much bigger nut case, and this team does not need him.

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01-06-2010, 10:30 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
This is ridiculous logic. These were established NHLers. They weren't first round picks any longer and their values varied from where they were drafted. Biron, Smith, Gauthier, Eminger didn't have first round value when we traded for them. They also did nothing for the farm system being they were established NHLers.
The main ones I was talking about were Lupul and Eminger which is why I put their draft position then simply listed the others. Lupul and Eminger were drafted in the same draft as Pitkanen but somehow the logic of listing him as a 1st round pick makes sense but Eminger and Lupul doesnt?

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01-06-2010, 10:31 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
Just b/c everyine loved him didn't make him awesome
See: Scottie Upshall

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01-06-2010, 10:40 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
I'm not sure I see the distinction, but
Well from where I sit I like the talent he assembled, but I don't like all of the contracts he handed out and I dislike how he overpaid in some trades. Although it all goes hand in hand.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Well said.

On paper, it does indeed look fine. There's an element missing. Seemed like it was there early on, then *poof*. Something extraordinary happened and I'm not sure we will ever learn what it was.
Lately I think it might just be a character issue. It reminds me of Ed Wade's Phillies teams. On paper they were always expected to contend for the division or wild card, but they never lived up to expectations. The Gillick comes in and gets rid of some of the laid back veterans and brings in some players with character. It also allowed players already on the roster like Rollins and Utley step up in leadership roles. Sometimes I think that is what is needed here.

I also think maybe the younger players fell for all of the hype after the ECF run and thought things would be easier than are in the NHL. Hence the constant references from the vets about the team thinking they could turn the switch on whatever they felt like last season. I also do tend to think there is a divide between youth and vets in the room. I think a guy like Pronger could easily create some friction.

I don't know though, you could be right something happened that we'll never hear about. I did hear some crazy rumors that would be considered extraordinary and I guess would explain why the wheels fells off when they did, but we'll probably never know what is fact or fiction.

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01-06-2010, 10:46 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
The main ones I was talking about were Lupul and Eminger which is why I put their draft position then simply listed the others. Lupul and Eminger were drafted in the same draft as Pitkanen but somehow the logic of listing him as a 1st round pick makes sense but Eminger and Lupul doesnt?
Okay I get what you are saying. I don't think it makes sense to label Pitkanen a first round pick either. I guess I get where they are coming from because Pitkanen wasn't too far from being removed from a promising pick of ours, but he wasn't a first rounder.

I don't think there is much criticism to be had for that deal because Pitkanen wanted out and there didn't appear to be much interest in him. It was a swap of two players that needed a change of scenery and two vets that were at the end of the line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
See: Scottie Upshall
Some people just can't take any criticism of their favorite. The criticism of that trade doesn't have anything to do with how awesome Upshall may or may not be. The fact is Upshall is the better player and the Flyers got poor value in return for him. Some can't handle that criticism because they refuse to take off their orange and black goggles and accuse everyone of overrating Upshall.

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