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Old
01-06-2010, 06:11 PM
  #101
NYR Sting
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
3 20+ goal seasons in a row = consistent - regardless of what YOUR definition is.
The lack of consistency has been a knock against him almost every season. This isn't an idea started by me.

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As opposed to BS your spouting? He had good line mates? He was spoon fed 20+ goals/year for three consecutive years? Koivu's career high point total is 75. He had 50, 56, 75, & 62 points in the years Higgins was there - those numbers were similar to Gomez' last year and EVERYONE couldn't wait to run him out of town. Higgins wasn't playing with Crosby, Malkin, or Thornton and I'm not the guy dismissing a career over a bad (goal scoring wise) 42 games.
No, you're the guy judging a career based on nothing but numbers. Higgins wouldn't be the first or the last player to be, as you say, spoon fed goals. It happens all te time. Grinders that are big enough/strong enough/smart enough/fundamentally sound enough to benefit from playing with skill players. Once again, by talking about Koivu's numbers instead of actually discussing his play, you're proving that you don't know what you're talking about. You don't seem to grasp the concept that goals, assists, and points don't tell the entire story about a player. Thus your completely irrelevant comparison of Koivu to Gomez. There are, believe it or not, other factors at play. Again, actually sitting down and watching the games closely might help illuminate that. Besides the fact that Koivu is a much smarter and more efficient player who is also significantly more dependable defensively than Gomez, he's a locker room leader and he doesn't make seven million a year for putting up second-line points. He also happened to be a great fit for Higgins based on their STYLES OF PLAY.

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I agree that the Rangers are weak up the middle, but I also think Higgins (and Drury) suffer from the same affliction of pressing too much and simply trying to hard.
Another cliche? And now you're doing it for another player whose struggles and their causes have been well documented. Yeah, Drury is trying too hard. Or maybe it's just that instead of playing with people like Sakic, Forsberg, Hejduk, Tanguay, Briere, Pominville, Campbell, he's now playing with Higgins, Kotalik, Callahan, Avery, etc.

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Avery and Higgins are completely different players.
Not really. Both are grinders who can't produce offense on their own but are capable of scoring 15-25 goals if they play with skill players for most of the season. Avery has even less skill than Higgins, but his excellent hockey sense more than makes up for that, or at least it did before this season. Seeing as how I don't believe that the Avery of old is gone for good, I'd rather have him than Higgins, who, unlike Avery, can be dealt for something.

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In any event, my point is WHY do you want to get rid of a guy with little trade value for another guy with little trade value. It's POINTLESS. And Higgins comes off our books at the end of the year if he really turns out to be more useless in the 2nd half of the season. O'Sullivan is a nearly 3 million/year cap hit for another year (2010/11). Why the hell would you want that over Higgins? Cogliano is an RFA at the end of this year and by most measures has regressed in his NHL career - 4 G and 6 A in 43 games for a "speed" team. These players are all so god-damned similar that this entire thread is useless.
I'm not advocating trading Higgins for O'Sullivan, per se. I'm just advocating trading Higgins, and I've made it pretty clear already as to why. Since this team can't accommodate him with the players he needs to play with to make an impact, they might as well get something for him while they can, because he's pretty much redundant on this roster. How many third line caliber wingers does a team need?

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01-06-2010, 06:55 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
The lack of consistency has been a knock against him almost every season. This isn't an idea started by me.
Maybe last year coming off an injury, but Higgins was a guy that was being groomed by the Canadians to eventually lead the team. Montreal is probably the toughest NHL franchise to play for and certainly the most critical of its players.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
No, you're the guy judging a career based on nothing but numbers. Higgins wouldn't be the first or the last player to be, as you say, spoon fed goals. It happens all te time. Grinders that are big enough/strong enough/smart enough/fundamentally sound enough to benefit from playing with skill players. Once again, by talking about Koivu's numbers instead of actually discussing his play, you're proving that you don't know what you're talking about. You don't seem to grasp the concept that goals, assists, and points don't tell the entire story about a player. Thus your completely irrelevant comparison of Koivu to Gomez. There are, believe it or not, other factors at play. Again, actually sitting down and watching the games closely might help illuminate that. Besides the fact that Koivu is a much smarter and more efficient player who is also significantly more dependable defensively than Gomez, he's a locker room leader and he doesn't make seven million a year for putting up second-line points. He also happened to be a great fit for Higgins based on their STYLES OF PLAY.
Actually, I'm the guy judging Higgins based on his overall performance. Check my posts on him - I've praised his hard work, excellent PK, etc.... and have equally pointed out that his finishing has been awful. And I'm not the one that wants him gone after 42 games because I have some preconceived notion that he's shot, can't score, and was born to play with Koivu. I think he's got ability and certainly has determination. I don't want him gone for some lateral move and I don't want the hard working members of this team shipped out. His coach has repeatedly lauded all aspects of his game with the exception of finishing and "inconsistent" isn't a word I've heard him use. Regarding Gomez: He was an Alternate captain on a cup winning team and was largely considered one of the leaders on and off the ice (for good or bad) of the Rangers and the Devils. And, listen, why don't you drop the elitist nonsense "maybe if you just watched the game" BS. We can agree to disagree like adults without you insinuating that you're an all knowing hockey mind and the rest of us are just idiots. I guarantee I've watched plenty of hockey and understand the game quite well.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Another cliche? And now you're doing it for another player whose struggles and their causes have been well documented. Yeah, Drury is trying too hard. Or maybe it's just that instead of playing with people like Sakic, Forsberg, Hejduk, Tanguay, Briere, Pominville, Campbell, he's now playing with Higgins, Kotalik, Callahan, Avery, etc.
And he still made the U.S. Olympic team? Hrm. What do Brian Burke and Tortorella know that you don't? Must be something - and they've both won Cups. I'll take their word over yours that Drury has a lot to offer, somewhere, to an Olympic team that could've chosen many other Centers that have a lot more points. Weren't stats something you were criticizing me for? Drury - leadership, hard work, PK, face offs. He's not worth 7 million, but the Rangers are a worse team without him and the last couple of years without any of the players that you mentioned above, his numbers were relatively similar on teams that were clearly worse and offensively challenged.



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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Not really. Both are grinders who can't produce offense on their own but are capable of scoring 15-25 goals if they play with skill players for most of the season. Avery has even less skill than Higgins, but his excellent hockey sense more than makes up for that, or at least it did before this season. Seeing as how I don't believe that the Avery of old is gone for good, I'd rather have him than Higgins, who, unlike Avery, can be dealt for something.
Was that Avery who scored and set up another goal tonight in the 1st?

Seriously, though, Avery can't kill penalties. Higgins isn't a pest and doesn't get under the opponents skin. Higgins can't fight. Avery has never scored 20 goals. Avery is a much better skater. I don't think the two are similar. Again, we can agree to disagree.



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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I'm not advocating trading Higgins for O'Sullivan, per se. I'm just advocating trading Higgins, and I've made it pretty clear already as to why. Since this team can't accommodate him with the players he needs to play with to make an impact, they might as well get something for him while they can, because he's pretty much redundant on this roster. How many third line caliber wingers does a team need?
I'm not giving up on a guy after 42 games who's got a one year contract. There's no reason to move him and bring back more salary or a longer deal. Higgins is a top 6 forward for us, if you've been watching. His numbers aren't there but hopefully a goal here and there gets him going again. Anyway, I think this has run its course. /thread.

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Old
01-06-2010, 08:37 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
avery is not fine... avery is absolutely awful this year... has been invisible almost the entire year... I would much rather get rid of Avery than Higgins, if at all possible. And he has probably missed more wide open opportunities than Higgins this year.

and after I write this he has his bset game of the year. go me!

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01-06-2010, 08:43 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
and after I write this he has his bset game of the year. go me!
Dude, can you rag on Higgins, Lisin, Kotalik and Drury for a minute?

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01-06-2010, 08:51 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Dude, can you rag on Higgins, Lisin, Kotalik and Drury for a minute?
And Redden. And Roszival.

Aw, ******* it, the Rangers are 7-1-2 in their last 10. We all need to stop b*tching.

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01-06-2010, 08:53 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
And Redden. And Roszival.

Aw, ******* it, the Rangers are 7-1-2 in their last 10. We all need to stop b*tching.
whaaa really, if so i havent been paying much attention lately.................back on track!

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01-06-2010, 08:56 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Dude, can you rag on Higgins, Lisin, Kotalik and Drury for a minute?


I've been ragging on Drury for almost 3 years now... no hope there.

But Higgy, Lisin, Kotalik all suck this entire year. I mean completely worthless and invisible.

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01-06-2010, 09:01 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
and after I write this he has his bset game of the year. go me!
lol go you! Keep it up!

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01-06-2010, 10:14 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Definitely overrated and another victim of the Canadian hype machine, IMO.

If the price is right, I don't see any harm in acquiring him, but I'm not willing to give up anything significant. I'd be far more interested in O'Sullivan. Higgins for Sully straight up.
Done, Sully sucks balls. I would love to keep Cogs instead of Patty O. Cogs plays with his heart and soul every shift even got in a fight against Calgary. Patty O bottom lip has been dragging on the ice all season. They are both in their third season in the NHL Cogs was drafted 25th overall in 05, POS was 56th overall in 03

Patrick O'Sullivan's NHL Stats
2007-08 Los Angeles Kings NHL 82 22 31 53 36
2008-09 Los Angeles Kings NHL 62 14 23 37 16
2008-09 Edmonton Oilers NHL 19 2 4 6 12
2009-10 Edmonton Oilers NHL 43 9 13 22 20
NHL Totals 250 52 85 137 98
Andrew Cogliano's NHL Stats
2007-08 Edmonton Oilers NHL 82 18 27 45 20
2008-09 Edmonton Oilers NHL 82 18 20 38 22
2009-10 Edmonton Oilers NHL 43 4 6 10 11
NHL Totals 207 40 53 93 53

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Old
01-06-2010, 11:06 PM
  #110
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O'Sullivan is 23 and he's already been traded twice. Hmmm...

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01-06-2010, 11:12 PM
  #111
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A bit small, but he is a good player and has great speed. Would be a good move no question with that cap hit.

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01-07-2010, 02:45 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Maybe last year coming off an injury, but Higgins was a guy that was being groomed by the Canadians to eventually lead the team. Montreal is probably the toughest NHL franchise to play for and certainly the most critical of its players.
This, again, is completely irrelevant. You know, since he was stripped of his 'A' and then later traded.

Quote:
Actually, I'm the guy judging Higgins based on his overall performance. Check my posts on him - I've praised his hard work, excellent PK, etc.... and have equally pointed out that his finishing has been awful.
And I've pointed out numerous times that his hard work and excellent PK are redundant on a team with numerous players who work even harder and kill penalties even better.

If you believe his finishing his awful this season, then you must believe he's been a terrible finisher his entire career. I do, which is why I don't think he's a player that the team needs to feel attached to.

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And I'm not the one that wants him gone after 42 games because I have some preconceived notion that he's shot, can't score, and was born to play with Koivu.
No, you just have a whole different set of preconcieved notions. At least mine are based on the correct analysis.

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I think he's got ability and certainly has determination.
No one has disputed that he has ability. He simply doesn't have all that much of it. The fact that he's never been able to consistently (there's that word again) create and convert scoring opportunities largely on his own proves that.

His determination has never been questioned. Determination can only get you so far.

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I don't want him gone for some lateral move and I don't want the hard working members of this team shipped out. His coach has repeatedly lauded all aspects of his game with the exception of finishing and "inconsistent" isn't a word I've heard him use.
When you have a number of hard-working players that all fill the same holes on the roster, even their effort doesn't change the fact that they simply aren't needed.

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Regarding Gomez: He was an Alternate captain on a cup winning team and was largely considered one of the leaders on and off the ice (for good or bad) of the Rangers and the Devils.
I can see you weren't paying very close attention during those Devil games, either.

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And, listen, why don't you drop the elitist nonsense "maybe if you just watched the game" BS. We can agree to disagree like adults without you insinuating that you're an all knowing hockey mind and the rest of us are just idiots. I guarantee I've watched plenty of hockey and understand the game quite well.
In this instance, I'm not insinuating anything about "the rest of us," just about you. Plenty of people here who I disagree with. I don't accuse all of them of not knowing what they're talking about. I don't like when people talk out of their ass. Call it a pet peeve. Unfortunately, that kind of thing seems to be on the rise around here lately. It's getting to be a bit of a nuisance. I don't really care if you like me or my manner of posting. You may have watched a lot of hockey, but from reading what you have to say around here, I don't think you understand the game very well at all. And I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to have that opinion, no?

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And he still made the U.S. Olympic team? Hrm. What do Brian Burke and Tortorella know that you don't? Must be something - and they've both won Cups. I'll take their word over yours that Drury has a lot to offer, somewhere, to an Olympic team that could've chosen many other Centers that have a lot more points. Weren't stats something you were criticizing me for? Drury - leadership, hard work, PK, face offs. He's not worth 7 million, but the Rangers are a worse team without him and the last couple of years without any of the players that you mentioned above, his numbers were relatively similar on teams that were clearly worse and offensively challenged.
This, yet again, is totally irrelevant. All I said was that "trying too hard" probably isn't why Drury is having trouble putting up numbers offensively. You won't find many people around here that have defended Chris Drury and his value to the team more than I have. I've never said he shouldn't make the Olympic team, I've always been one to promote the fact that Drury is very useful when he isn't scoring. In fact, he's so useful that he just happens to be one of the very same guys that make Higgins expendable.

Was that Avery who scored and set up another goal tonight in the 1st?

Quote:
Seriously, though, Avery can't kill penalties.
Doesn't matter on this team. This team can afford to have a third line winger who doesn't kill penalties when so many other players on the team can and do.

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Higgins isn't a pest and doesn't get under the opponents skin.
I'm talking about what they can and can't do on the ice, not what the way they choose to behave.

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Higgins can't fight.
Neither can Avery.

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Avery has never scored 20 goals.
He's been on pace to. I bet if Sean Avery played with Saku Koivu, Sean Avery would score at least 17-18 goals.

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Avery is a much better skater.
He is a better skater. Not better enough of a skater that it elevates him to a different level than Higgins, though.

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I'm not giving up on a guy after 42 games who's got a one year contract.
Then you wouldn't make a very good manager of assets in today's NHL. That's not too big of a knock though, since there are a bunch of guys in the NHL, like Glen Sather, who aren't too good at it yet, either.

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There's no reason to move him and bring back more salary or a longer deal.
I never said there was. All I said is that he should be moved. Didn't specify what for.

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Higgins is a top 6 forward for us, if you've been watching. His numbers aren't there but hopefully a goal here and there gets him going again.
Higgins is a third line player on any team that, like this one, doesn't have the luxury of playing him with the right type of linemates that are conducive to him scoring goals. If he isn't scoring, he fills the same role as the Callahans, Averys, Drurys. Just not as well.


Last edited by NYR Sting: 01-07-2010 at 02:51 AM.
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Old
01-07-2010, 06:38 AM
  #113
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Cogliano is a project. His third season in the NHL and his numbers have decreased each season. His game has not progressed.

Dave Staples(Oiler blogger)doesn't want to see Cogs traded

http://communities.canada.com/edmont...-times-no.aspx

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01-07-2010, 07:55 AM
  #114
haohmaru
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
This, again, is completely irrelevant. You know, since he was stripped of his 'A' and then later traded.
I guess that makes Marleau and Elias irrelevant, too. They lost letters, too.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
And I've pointed out numerous times that his hard work and excellent PK are redundant on a team with numerous players who work even harder and kill penalties even better.
Drury & Cally. Yes. But those two guys can't kill penalties all time and they've been top 5 in the league all year. That's not something you mess with to make a lateral move and make your PK weaker. It simply doesn't make sense. Higgins is on the 2nd PK unit and not really on the PP. Who is going to fill that role when he's gone? Avery?

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
If you believe his finishing his awful this season, then you must believe he's been a terrible finisher his entire career. I do, which is why I don't think he's a player that the team needs to feel attached to.
No, I just don't believe that he's not a 20 goal scorer. I believe that he can do it again and think you're an absolute tool for calling him a "terrible finisher" his entire career. Matter of fact, I don't think you've watched all that much of Higgins @ MTL.


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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
No, you just have a whole different set of preconcieved notions. At least mine are based on the correct analysis.
Is that what you call this? "Correct analysis"? LOL.



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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
No one has disputed that he has ability. He simply doesn't have all that much of it. The fact that he's never been able to consistently (there's that word again) create and convert scoring opportunities largely on his own proves that.
Wingers usually rely on Centers to create opportunities. This is quite normal in hockey in general and in the NHL. Wingers like Gaborik and Jagr aren't the norm. And, for the 4th or 5th time, multiple consecutive 20+ goal seasons = consistency. Thats "correct analysis", not some psuedo-analytical assessment of a guy that you might or might not have seen much of before he became a Ranger. I highly doubt you've spent hours and hours watching Canadian games and Higgins in particular to arrive at your opinion.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
When you have a number of hard-working players that all fill the same holes on the roster, even their effort doesn't change the fact that they simply aren't needed.
Look across the river. The Devils don't have their record because they don't have players that work hard - they simply aren't THAT talented to have their best start in franchise history. Their players have roles, fulfill them, and work hard. I'll take it.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
I can see you weren't paying very close attention during those Devil games, either.
Mmmhmmm.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
In this instance, I'm not insinuating anything about "the rest of us," just about you. Plenty of people here who I disagree with. I don't accuse all of them of not knowing what they're talking about. I don't like when people talk out of their ass. Call it a pet peeve. Unfortunately, that kind of thing seems to be on the rise around here lately. It's getting to be a bit of a nuisance. I don't really care if you like me or my manner of posting. You may have watched a lot of hockey, but from reading what you have to say around here, I don't think you understand the game very well at all. And I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to have that opinion, no?
Oh, I see, because I disagree with your "correct analysis", I somehow know less about hockey than you do? Ridiculous. You've said absolutely nothing that impresses upon me in any way that you're a student of the game or more knowledgeable than I am. If you did, I'd digress, but I'm not impressed with you whatsoever, either. I'll make sure that instead of being an adult about it and disagreeing with you, I'll point out that you "must not watch hockey much" in every post about you as well. That's fine. I think you talk out of your ass, too.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
This, yet again, is totally irrelevant. All I said was that "trying too hard" probably isn't why Drury is having trouble putting up numbers offensively. You won't find many people around here that have defended Chris Drury and his value to the team more than I have. I've never said he shouldn't make the Olympic team, I've always been one to promote the fact that Drury is very useful when he isn't scoring. In fact, he's so useful that he just happens to be one of the very same guys that make Higgins expendable.
I was actually disputing the notion that his numbers (this year aside) were similar regardless of who he was playing with. They were. Go back and read it again.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
He's been on pace to. I bet if Sean Avery played with Saku Koivu, Sean Avery would score at least 17-18 goals.
He's been given quite a few chances on the top line or 2nd line. He's got 5 goals and hasn't created nearly as many opportunities for himself that Higgins has. He's not that type of player. Arguing hypotheticals is pointless because we will never know how many points Avery would have with players playing elsewhere. Doesn't change the fact that he and Higgins aren't the same type of player.

Did you watch the game last night? Higgins can not, CAN NOT, play the way Avery did last night. Period. You sure you watch the games?

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Then you wouldn't make a very good manager of assets in today's NHL. That's not too big of a knock though, since there are a bunch of guys in the NHL, like Glen Sather, who aren't too good at it yet, either.
I wouldn't want you near the phone to call other GM's either. I'm not impressed with you whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Higgins is a third line player on any team that, like this one, doesn't have the luxury of playing him with the right type of linemates that are conducive to him scoring goals. If he isn't scoring, he fills the same role as the Callahans, Averys, Drurys. Just not as well.
I'm not going to argue that the Rangers don't need a more talented forward on their top 6. They do. They aren't going to get one trading Higgins, who's having an off season, and if his play doesn't improve in the 2nd half then they can go out and buy one over the summer or have the money to sign Girardi. Getting rid of him makes no sense whatsover unless he's part of a package deal with prospects that might not make the team (Sanguinetti, etc...) in the future to bring back a much more talented guy.

(Edit) You know what? Never mind. You're 23. Enough said. You're talking to me about Tony Amonte in '93-94 when I had season tickets and watched the entire season at the Garden and you were, what, 7 or 8? Did you buy the DVD or something? I'm done replying to you. Jesus.


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01-07-2010, 09:55 AM
  #115
NYR Sting
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
I guess that makes Marleau and Elias irrelevant, too. They lost letters, too.
They're certainly irrelevant to this conversation. No one is confusing them with third line players.

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Drury & Cally. Yes. But those two guys can't kill penalties all time and they've been top 5 in the league all year. That's not something you mess with to make a lateral move and make your PK weaker. It simply doesn't make sense. Higgins is on the 2nd PK unit and not really on the PP. Who is going to fill that role when he's gone? Avery?
First of all, Dubinsky, Boyle, Gaborik have all killed penalties this season, among others. Second of all, I'm not very concerned about finding a guy to kill penalties. In the off-season, that isn't exactly a difficult hole to plug in this league, and I believe we'd be able to make due from the trade deadline (when Higgins should be dealt) till the end of the season

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No, I just don't believe that he's not a 20 goal scorer. I believe that he can do it again and think you're an absolute tool for calling him a "terrible finisher" his entire career. Matter of fact, I don't think you've watched all that much of Higgins @ MTL.
It's funny, when I ran the idea by a respected member of the Rangers organization this summer that Higgins was going to struggle scoring this year, on this team, because he's never been able to create offense for himself, this person said that Higgins' difficulty with finishing was something numerous people with the team were concerned about. You know, seeing as how he's notorious for blowing a ton of chances and has been for a number of years. I guess this guy (and the other people with the team that he said shared this fear) was an absolute tool, too.

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Wingers usually rely on Centers to create opportunities. This is quite normal in hockey in general and in the NHL. Wingers like Gaborik and Jagr aren't the norm. And, for the 4th or 5th time, multiple consecutive 20+ goal seasons = consistency. Thats "correct analysis", not some psuedo-analytical assessment of a guy that you might or might not have seen much of before he became a Ranger. I highly doubt you've spent hours and hours watching Canadian games and Higgins in particular to arrive at your opinion.
You really like to deal in generalities, don't you? Yes, wingers do often rely on centers. Especially wingers who don't have much skill. Like Higgins. That's why players like Higgins don't do all that much when they aren't playing with skill players. Again, another reason why I have no interest in keeping Higgins. Without skill players to play with, he doesn't serve much of a purpose to us. If he isn't scoring goals, which he won't unless he's getting enough ice time with guys that can create for him, then he's just another third liner grinder, and those guys aren't very difficult to find.

I'd venture to guess I watch anywhere from 35-45 Habs games a season, for at least the last 5-6 years. One of my favorite teams to watch around the league because of the great atmosphere in their building. The phrase "Higgins needs to be more consistent" was something I remember hearing from their color commentator quite often, and not just last season, either. Wonder why?

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Look across the river. The Devils don't have their record because they don't have players that work hard - they simply aren't THAT talented to have their best start in franchise history. Their players have roles, fulfill them, and work hard. I'll take it.
Obviously more talented than the Rangers, though. The construction of their roster makes a lot more sense. Better managed and coached, too. That's probably why they can make things like that work, and always have, while we don't and can't.

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Oh, I see, because I disagree with your "correct analysis", I somehow know less about hockey than you do? Ridiculous. You've said absolutely nothing that impresses upon me in any way that you're a student of the game or more knowledgeable than I am. If you did, I'd digress, but I'm not impressed with you whatsoever, either. I'll make sure that instead of being an adult about it and disagreeing with you, I'll point out that you "must not watch hockey much" in every post about you as well. That's fine. I think you talk out of your ass, too.
As I said before, a lot of very knowledgeable posters around here that I don't necessarily agree with at all times. I just don't happen to think that YOU fall into that category, and that's based solely on the opinions you've espoused recently. The opinion I'm sharing: that Higgins is a guy who scores most of his goals on tap ins, rebounds, and wide open nets, isn't something that I came up with off the top of my head. The very fact that you're going to argue me on that tells me all I need to know. And if you think I'm trying to impress you...well, I don't even know what to say to that. I couldn't possibly care less what you, or anyone else around here for that matter, thinks about me.

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I was actually disputing the notion that his numbers (this year aside) were similar regardless of who he was playing with. They were. Go back and read it again.
Do you know what dispute means?

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He's been given quite a few chances on the top line or 2nd line. He's got 5 goals and hasn't created nearly as many opportunities for himself that Higgins has. He's not that type of player. Arguing hypotheticals is pointless because we will never know how many points Avery would have with players playing elsewhere. Doesn't change the fact that he and Higgins aren't the same type of player.

Did you watch the game last night? Higgins can not, CAN NOT, play the way Avery did last night. Period. You sure you watch the games?
So first you say that he can't create as many opportunities as Higgins can, and then you say that Higgins can't play the way Avery does. Which is it? I think Avery, when he isn't playing with his tail between his legs, can create just as many opportunities as Higgins. Last night showed that. That again is one of several reasons why Higgins just isn't necessary. You don't need so many players who basically fill the same role and put up the same numbers. Poor team construction.

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I'm not going to argue that the Rangers don't need a more talented forward on their top 6. They do. They aren't going to get one trading Higgins, who's having an off season, and if his play doesn't improve in the 2nd half then they can go out and buy one over the summer or have the money to sign Girardi. Getting rid of him makes no sense whatsover unless he's part of a package deal with prospects that might not make the team (Sanguinetti, etc...) in the future to bring back a much more talented guy.
So you want to let a guy walk for nothing when you could get something of value for him? Sorry, but that's not good business. See, getting something instead of nothing isn't a lateral move.

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(Edit) You know what? Never mind. You're 23. Enough said. You're talking to me about Tony Amonte in '93-94 when I had season tickets and watched the entire season at the Garden and you were, what, 7 or 8? Did you buy the DVD or something? I'm done replying to you. Jesus.
Actually, I watched 77 games in 93-94. I know the exact number because until two years, ago, I still had them all on tape. I've never watched less than 75 games in a season since, I've been playing and/or coaching since I was in elementary school. For the last 5 years, I've been indirectly working with a number of people in the "hockey community," which is delightful, since it allows me to talk hockey with people who know what they're talking about. That's probably why I'm so confident in my opinions. Most of the time, they seem to be right in line with what these people are thinking. Most of these people are significantly older than me, too, yet they never dismiss my opinions because of my age. I'm not surprised that you would, though.

Heck, just the other week when I was at the Islander game, I sat next to a guy who had season tickets for over 40 years. Between his seven beers and his never-ending desire to instruct the Rangers to hit people, he barely knew the difference between forechecking and backchecking, and I know he's not the only fan of his kind. You're older than me? Wow, so you MUST know more than I do. I think it's pretty sad that you've been watching for such a long time and still have such a rudimentary understanding of the sport. Next time you're at the Garden, make sure to let me know just exactly which one of the plethora of douches screaming "shoot" on the power play you are.

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01-07-2010, 09:59 AM
  #116
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O'Sullivan is 23 and he's already been traded twice. Hmmm...
While I do think he is a more valuable player than Higgins, I don't think he's the guy we should be looking to deal Higgins for. Unless we can get a decent, cheaply-paid young player, what we need to hope for is a second round pick. At the very least, a third.

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01-07-2010, 10:02 AM
  #117
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Let's try to keep things impersonal here guys. Everyone is entitled to their opinions! Otherwise, keep going.

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01-07-2010, 10:33 AM
  #118
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O'Sullivan is 23 and he's already been traded twice. Hmmm...
He's 24.

And he's been traded once (from LAK to EDM in a three way deal).

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01-07-2010, 10:41 AM
  #119
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He's 24.

And he's been traded once (from LAK to EDM in a three way deal).
no your wrong.



During the 2006 NHL Entry Draft, he was traded by the Minnesota Wild along with their 17th overall pick (Trevor Lewis), obtained in a trade with the Edmonton Oilers for Dwayne Roloson, to the Los Angeles Kings for Pavol Demitra.


On March 4, 2009, O'Sullivan was traded by the Kings with Calgary's second-round pick to the Carolina Hurricanes for Justin Williams, then was traded by the Hurricanes along with a second-round pick to the Edmonton Oilers for Erik Cole and a fifth-round pick.

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01-07-2010, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
He's 24.

And he's been traded once (from LAK to EDM in a three way deal).
Well he was drafted by MIN but in his NHL stint he was only traded once

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01-07-2010, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
While I do think he is a more valuable player than Higgins, I don't think he's the guy we should be looking to deal Higgins for. Unless we can get a decent, cheaply-paid young player, what we need to hope for is a second round pick. At the very least, a third.
i would be happy with a second even a 3rd rounder aint bad.....deep down i would love to keep him(because i feel he can be a consistent 20 gaol scorer for this team) but they are not since he is a UFA....def dont want sully....every oiler fan i spoke to hates him and cant wait to ship him out.....but a high pick will be nice....lets hope he heats up and nets say another 5-8 goals before the olympic break

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01-07-2010, 11:05 AM
  #122
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i would be happy with a second even a 3rd rounder aint bad.....deep down i would love to keep him(because i feel he can be a consistent 20 gaol scorer for this team) but they are not since he is a UFA....def dont want sully....every oiler fan i spoke to hates him and cant wait to ship him out.....but a high pick will be nice....lets hope he heats up and nets say another 5-8 goals before the olympic break
Agreed. I'd rather get Higgy scoring again than ship him out for 2nd or 3rd round pick. Higgins was 14th overall in the 1st round way back when. He's more valuable to this team if his production increases - he's an asset out there defensively and on the PK and he's looked better playing with Drury and Cally.

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01-07-2010, 01:23 PM
  #123
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Let's try to keep things impersonal here guys. Everyone is entitled to their opinions! Otherwise, keep going.
My apologies to haohmaru. I was taking out all of my growing frustrations about some things around here on him. I took it a bit too far.

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01-07-2010, 01:28 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
While I do think he is a more valuable player than Higgins, I don't think he's the guy we should be looking to deal Higgins for. Unless we can get a decent, cheaply-paid young player, what we need to hope for is a second round pick. At the very least, a third.
Tell me again how a second or third round draft pick will help us make the playoffs this year?

And O'Sullivan was drafted by the Wild and traded as part of the deal for Pavel Demitra.

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01-07-2010, 01:33 PM
  #125
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Tell me again how a second or third round draft pick will help us make the playoffs this year?

And O'Sullivan was drafted by the Wild and traded as part of the deal for Pavel Demitra.
Tell me again why I should care whether or not we make the playoffs this year? We don't have a very good team.

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