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The Flyers Mismanagement of Assets

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Old
01-07-2010, 01:35 PM
  #76
DrinkFightFlyers
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Josh Gratton and 2 2nd Round Picks for Denis Gauthier
Joni Pitkanen (former 1st) and Geoff Sanferson for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul
2nd Round Pick for Martin Biron
1st Round Pick for Rights to negotiate with Hartnell and Timonen
1st round Pick for Steve Eminger
Steve Eminger and Steve Downie (former 1st) for Matt Carle
Denis Gauthier and 2nd Round Pick for Patrik Hersley and Ned Lukacevic
Scottie Upshall and 2nd Round Pick for Daniel Carcillo
Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa (former 1st) and two first round draft picks for Chris Pronger

Of these trades, the two involving Gauthier were bad and that's about it. the first for Eminger also included a third rounder which turned out to be Jacob DeSerres, so you can't really judge that trade yet because he could wind up being a starter here. Not to mention it also turned into Matt Carle. The Upshall trade was a good one even though everyone on here wants to **** Scottie Upshall. The Hartnell and Timonen trade was also a good one. Would you rather have Jonathan Blum (the guy Nashville took w/ the pick) than Timonen and Hartnell? Biron for second round pick is a steal. He is a starting goalie who helped this team when it needed a goalie. How are you going to complain about that? The Pronger trade the jury is still out on, but I think it will be a good trade regardless of the outcome. Pronger is a Hall of Fame player and the Flyers want to win now. I'll take it.

As for the signings, hindsight is 20/20. Briere was one of (if not the most) sought after free agents on the market. If the Flyers didn't give it to him someone else would have. The Flyers were in disarray and needed a star on the team. If they didn't get him, there would have been outcry for Homer's head for not getting him. Timonen and Hartnell are really not that outlandish. Maybe one or two million too much, but again, hindsight. The bottom line is Homer has done the best job with what he has. When the Flyers win the Cup with all these "bad trades" we'll see what everyone is saying.

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01-07-2010, 01:47 PM
  #77
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Wait, lemme get this straight. You think:

Quote:
Scottie Upshall and 2nd Round Pick for Daniel Carcillo
was a "good" trade? That trade is friggin atrocious on value. Scottie Upshall as a player trumps Carcillo as a player (and this isn't a matter of liking their style, Upshall is simply a better "hockey player"). Then you throw in the 2nd rd. pick for good measure.

Upshall is on pace for 28 goals right now...that's a quality 2nd liner. Carcillo is playing effectively on the 4th line and can't really go above there because he doesn't have the hands to consistently play above there.

I don't think Upshall would be on this team this year no matter what...because of his contract. But we could have gotten a LOT more than Dan Carcillo for Upshall and a 2nd if Holmgren had cut that deal after the season.

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01-07-2010, 02:00 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Wait, lemme get this straight. You think:



was a "good" trade? That trade is friggin atrocious on value. Scottie Upshall as a player trumps Carcillo as a player (and this isn't a matter of liking their style, Upshall is simply a better "hockey player"). Then you throw in the 2nd rd. pick for good measure.

Upshall is on pace for 28 goals right now...that's a quality 2nd liner. Carcillo is playing effectively on the 4th line and can't really go above there because he doesn't have the hands to consistently play above there.

I don't think Upshall would be on this team this year no matter what...because of his contract. But we could have gotten a LOT more than Dan Carcillo for Upshall and a 2nd if Holmgren had cut that deal after the season.
It's been said many times on this board, but Upshall was not going to resign with Philly. If he wanted to, he could have in the offseason I'm sure. But he didn't. A 2nd round pick in 2011 is not going to help this team win probably until about 2014, at the earliest. Carcillo is a player that is helping this team win NOW. What is so hard to understand about that? If the Flyers were a team in a rebuilding mode, I would agree, this would be a terrible trade. But, guess what, the Flyers are a team on the brink of winning it all, so 2011 second round picks are not as valuable as a player that is NHL ready right now. And I know Upshall is obviously a better offensive player than Carcillo, but they are two totally different players in totally different situations, especially considering the Salary Cap.

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01-07-2010, 02:01 PM
  #79
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And people say would you rather have a 1st round pick or Timonen/Hartnell??

Did we have to really give up a 1st rounder to get the rights to two PENDING UFA's. They would have been available to the open public in a few weeks. And by the looks of the contracts, it does not look like we got any discounts. There may have been some competetion after them, but I have a feeling if we really wanted them we could have gotten them. Or even just given up less to Nashville.


People say Homer is a genius for what he did in 06/07?!? He could do what most people do on NHL 10...sign as many free agents and make as many trades as he wanted. No to challenging to accomplish.


We have one of the best scouting departments out there...yet we can not utilize them because we do not have any freaking draft picks. STUPID.

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01-07-2010, 02:05 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
It's been said many times on this board, but Upshall was not going to resign with Philly. If he wanted to, he could have in the offseason I'm sure. But he didn't. A 2nd round pick in 2011 is not going to help this team win probably until about 2014, at the earliest. Carcillo is a player that is helping this team win NOW. What is so hard to understand about that? If the Flyers were a team in a rebuilding mode, I would agree, this would be a terrible trade. But, guess what, the Flyers are a team on the brink of winning it all, so 2011 second round picks are not as valuable as a player that is NHL ready right now. And I know Upshall is obviously a better offensive player than Carcillo, but they are two totally different players in totally different situations, especially considering the Salary Cap.
And here is the issue: We are undervaluing picks, just cause we want to "win now."

Sure, this pick would not help us until 2014. But the picks we have given up for the past 3 years are going to come back to haunt us soon when our prospect system runs dry. These picks would be near NHL ready by next year, but instead, we did not pick them.


And people need to stop saying "Well, they drafted this guy and I would rather have this guy then him."

Our scouting department is alot better then most of these teams, as evidenced by our past draft choices. We would not have taken the same players in these circumstances most likely.

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01-07-2010, 02:07 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
All of this is true, but then I think you should be spinning it into a three-team deal to land that type of player. Outside of cap management, my primary issue with Holmgren is that this roster always seems to be notably imbalanced somewhere. Because we traded for Smith we ended up with a bit too much of a grunt blueline without enough puck skills... then we're making deals for guys like Eminger and whatnot, before going and getting Carle (the defense the following year was a joke at the start of the season). Now we have a goaltending imbalance...and even if Emery proves to be a solution, he's going to have restructure this team's salary distribution in order to make that work.

If you're trading a guy like Pitkanen, you really need to replace him with someone to offset the skill set you're giving up. Say what you will about Pitkanen, but the dude can provide some punch from the back.
All good points. I do agree with this. He should have tried to swing a 3 team deal or make another trade separately. It's like he undervalued with what we loss in Pitkanen. Ultimately he had to scramble to replace him and ended up mismanaging things even worse. I'd rather see another GM attempt to restructure the salary to fit in Emery. Homer's done enough as it is.

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01-07-2010, 02:08 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
It's been said many times on this board, but Upshall was not going to resign with Philly. If he wanted to, he could have in the offseason I'm sure. But he didn't. A 2nd round pick in 2011 is not going to help this team win probably until about 2014, at the earliest. Carcillo is a player that is helping this team win NOW. What is so hard to understand about that? If the Flyers were a team in a rebuilding mode, I would agree, this would be a terrible trade. But, guess what, the Flyers are a team on the brink of winning it all, so 2011 second round picks are not as valuable as a player that is NHL ready right now. And I know Upshall is obviously a better offensive player than Carcillo, but they are two totally different players in totally different situations, especially considering the Salary Cap.
...Scottie Upshall was a RFA. That means there was no way we would lose his rights without getting something back for him (unless we went to arbitration and walked away). So, no matter what, we could get something back for Upshall. An asset...in a thread about asset management.

Scottie Upshall + 2nd rd pick >>>> Carcillo.

And that isn't to suggest Carcillo is not and has not done some good things for this team. I'm not a fan of him, but it isn't like he's Riley Cote either.

The problem with your rebuttal to my argument is that what I'm specifically stating is that we could have gotten back BETTER than Carcillo over the summer, and that theoretical player might be helping this team now. Or we would have had Carcillo's cap money to sign someone else that would be helping the team right now. There are a plethora of asset management decisions that would have been BETTER than trading Upshall + 2nd for Carcillo. It was an absolutely atrocious deal on value, and that's poor asset management.

But, hey, any time you can give a guy capable of playing on the 2nd line AND a 2nd rd pick for a 4th liner, you gotta do it.

And you bring up the cap at the end. The ONLY justification for that deal was to address salary cap problems the team had last year (notice how poor cap management leads to necessarily poor asset management to deal with it). And it would be great if it had done that, and it would also explain why we got F'd in the deal. However, the trade failed to do that. We still didn't have the cap space at the end of the year, and we had to rely on ATOs to fill in for people because we couldn't call anyone up from the AHL to play.

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01-07-2010, 02:15 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
It's been said many times on this board, but Upshall was not going to resign with Philly. If he wanted to, he could have in the offseason I'm sure. But he didn't. A 2nd round pick in 2011 is not going to help this team win probably until about 2014, at the earliest. Carcillo is a player that is helping this team win NOW. What is so hard to understand about that? If the Flyers were a team in a rebuilding mode, I would agree, this would be a terrible trade. But, guess what, the Flyers are a team on the brink of winning it all, so 2011 second round picks are not as valuable as a player that is NHL ready right now. And I know Upshall is obviously a better offensive player than Carcillo, but they are two totally different players in totally different situations, especially considering the Salary Cap.
It doesn't matter whether or not he was going to re-sign here. It's not an excuse to make a poor trade. You don't overpay to get a lesser player regardless if he is contributing this year. What is so hard to understand about that? It's about managing your assets wisely and getting the best value for them. That's what winning organizations do, but I guess you're just satisfied with being an annual contender that never actually wins anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
And people say would you rather have a 1st round pick or Timonen/Hartnell??

Did we have to really give up a 1st rounder to get the rights to two PENDING UFA's. They would have been available to the open public in a few weeks. And by the looks of the contracts, it does not look like we got any discounts. There may have been some competetion after them, but I have a feeling if we really wanted them we could have gotten them. Or even just given up less to Nashville.


People say Homer is a genius for what he did in 06/07?!? He could do what most people do on NHL 10...sign as many free agents and make as many trades as he wanted. No to challenging to accomplish.


We have one of the best scouting departments out there...yet we can not utilize them because we do not have any freaking draft picks. STUPID.
Haha exactly. It's not an either or situation here because they were UFA. It was possible to keep the pick and get the players he wanted although there were no guarantees. I don't really have a problem with that particular deal, but it all adds up when you carelessly throw away picks.

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01-07-2010, 02:26 PM
  #84
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Haha exactly. It's not an either or situation here because they were UFA. It was possible to keep the pick and get the players he wanted although there were no guarantees. I don't really have a problem with that particular deal, but it all adds up when you carelessly throw away picks.
The Timonen/Hartnell deal with two 1st rounders made sense and I think has worked out (I like both players, and will like it even more if Laviolette gets Hartnell to do less stupid).

The bigger problem has been that past that he's just thrown away picks in deals left and right.

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01-07-2010, 02:35 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The Timonen/Hartnell deal with two 1st rounders made sense and I think has worked out (I like both players, and will like it even more if Laviolette gets Hartnell to do less stupid).

The bigger problem has been that past that he's just thrown away picks in deals left and right.
The deal was not THAT bad by itself, and it is also hard to judge not knowing what other teams offered and what other teams would be interested in them as UFA.

But this deal is just part of a long line of wasting valuable picks.

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01-07-2010, 02:36 PM
  #86
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There's one other deal I'd like to throw out there during the salary cap era that I haven't seen mentioned yet.

Denis Seidenberg to Phoenix for Petr Nedved.

If there was ever a guy who was never given a chance from the word go, Seidenberg was it. And when the Flyers traded him, he was traded for a player who had nothing left in the tank. Nedved offered this team nothing when he came here. I'm sure someone will put a spin on how Nedved was needed because of the uncertainty with Forsberg, but Nedved wasn't putting up numbers at all. The Flyers gave away a decent young defender for an over the hill hack.

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01-07-2010, 02:43 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
It's been said many times on this board, but Upshall was not going to resign with Philly. If he wanted to, he could have in the offseason I'm sure. But he didn't. A 2nd round pick in 2011 is not going to help this team win probably until about 2014, at the earliest. Carcillo is a player that is helping this team win NOW. What is so hard to understand about that? If the Flyers were a team in a rebuilding mode, I would agree, this would be a terrible trade. But, guess what, the Flyers are a team on the brink of winning it all, so 2011 second round picks are not as valuable as a player that is NHL ready right now. And I know Upshall is obviously a better offensive player than Carcillo, but they are two totally different players in totally different situations, especially considering the Salary Cap.
its not as simple as 'well if he wanted to stay he could have signed an offer sheet.' Ryan smyth didnt want to leave edmonton and he ended up signing with a divisional rival
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01-07-2010, 02:44 PM
  #88
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This topic has been discussed over and over on this board that I'm not understanding why a new thread was worthy to just rehash it all over again.

It's simple: Homer has his strengths and weaknesses. He is a great evaluator of talent and has given us a very talented roster. He has 2 primary weaknesses and that's lack of foresight with the salary cap and loyalty to a fault.

Right now Homer is a middle of the road GM and until he improves on his weaknesses that's where he will stay. Fortunately, I don't think you can teach the ability to evaluate talent but managing the cap is something you can learn and improve on.

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01-07-2010, 02:44 PM
  #89
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If you're trading a guy like Pitkanen, you really need to replace him with someone to offset the skill set you're giving up. Say what you will about Pitkanen, but the dude can provide some punch from the back.
Really? Other than the two 40 point seasons he posted in Philadelphia, he's had seasons of 26 and 33 points. He's got 19 points so far this year, but I wouldn't say he provides some punch from the back. He's nothing more than a bigger version of Janne Niinimaa.

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01-07-2010, 02:46 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
There's one other deal I'd like to throw out there during the salary cap era that I haven't seen mentioned yet.

Denis Seidenberg to Phoenix for Petr Nedved.

If there was ever a guy who was never given a chance from the word go, Seidenberg was it. And when the Flyers traded him, he was traded for a player who had nothing left in the tank. Nedved offered this team nothing when he came here. I'm sure someone will put a spin on how Nedved was needed because of the uncertainty with Forsberg, but Nedved wasn't putting up numbers at all. The Flyers gave away a decent young defender for an over the hill hack.
That was Clarke, not Holmgren...so not really relevant to evaluating Holmgren specifically.

And while you may poo poo it, that team was kind of a mess at forward at that point.

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01-07-2010, 02:48 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Really? Other than the two 40 point seasons he posted in Philadelphia, he's had seasons of 26 and 33 points. He's got 19 points so far this year, but I wouldn't say he provides some punch from the back. He's nothing more than a bigger version of Janne Niinimaa.
...that led our team in assists and was a beast the season prior before getting hurt. From what I've seen, Pitkanen has learned to be a better defender since leaving Philly.

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01-07-2010, 02:50 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
The wins against good teams will come, show some faith in the team. They beat NJ twice this season already out of three, but I guess that doesn't count. And they are 1-2 against Buffalo. Pitt has beaten them every time but you can't win every game all the time, especially against the league's top teams.

Pronger absolutely has played like an elite defenseman. Yeah, he has made some mistakes on the ice and made some bad plays, but guess what, every player does that from time to time. He is blocking shots and clearing the crease every time he is on the ice. I don't see how you could say Pronger hasn't played like an elite defenseman.

The bottom line is, that even if Pronger was playing absolutely terrible hockey. Like in danger of becoming a healthy scratch, the trade for him still made sense. Yes we gave up a lot, but he is a Hall of Fame player still in his prime. You can't fault Homer for going after him, even if he doesn't turn out the way you want. As a GM all you can do is make the moves that make the most sense at the time. Think of it this way, if the Flyers were on the verge of being a Cup contender (like they were last year) and all they needed (seemingly) was a top flight defenseman and instead of going out and getting one, they did nothing and kept the same team as last year. Then you would be saying, "Pronger was available...How can Homer not go after a Hall of Fame defenseman?" You have to strike when the iron is hot.
Pronger has not even approached elite level in the past month and a half, after a good start.

This team has done nothing to give me faith. They still have trouble with dumb penalties, still have trouble with dumb play, still have trouble playing hard for a full sixty minutes.

They have a lot of talent, but they're not a good team.

Holmgren took a lot of gambles that haven't even come close to paying off.

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01-07-2010, 02:53 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
It's been said many times on this board, but Upshall was not going to resign with Philly. If he wanted to, he could have in the offseason I'm sure. But he didn't. A 2nd round pick in 2011 is not going to help this team win probably until about 2014, at the earliest. Carcillo is a player that is helping this team win NOW. What is so hard to understand about that? If the Flyers were a team in a rebuilding mode, I would agree, this would be a terrible trade. But, guess what, the Flyers are a team on the brink of winning it all, so 2011 second round picks are not as valuable as a player that is NHL ready right now. And I know Upshall is obviously a better offensive player than Carcillo, but they are two totally different players in totally different situations, especially considering the Salary Cap.
Upshall was a RFA, so even if he didn't re-sign in Philly, he would have brought in compensation.

Even if he wasn't going to re-sign and was unrestricted, it's beyond stupid to trade the best player in the trade PLUS a second round draft choice for the second best player in the trade.

That is dumb. It's worse than dumb.

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01-07-2010, 02:54 PM
  #94
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That was Clarke, not Holmgren...so not really relevant to evaluating Holmgren specifically.

And while you may poo poo it, that team was kind of a mess at forward at that point.
The title of the thread is The Flyers Mismanagement of Assets. People talk about the Denis Gauthier deal, well, wasn't that a Clarke deal as well? As for Nedved, yes, dealing Seidenberg for Nedved was a complete case of asset mismanagement. Nedved was to be brought in to provide offense, which he didn't. In 25 games with Phoenix, he had 11 points. And yet, he was expected to be the 2nd line center and back up to Forsberg if Forsberg went down with injury? Come on, the only problem with the forwards was that Primeau suffered another concussion and Clarke didn't find an adequate veteran winger to play with Carter and Umberger (and don't get me started on Niko Dimitrakos - he wasn't the player that line needed). Clarke badly mismanaged the team after the lockout.


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01-07-2010, 02:57 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
This topic has been discussed over and over on this board that I'm not understanding why a new thread was worthy to just rehash it all over again.

It's simple: Homer has his strengths and weaknesses. He is a great evaluator of talent and has given us a very talented roster. He has 2 primary weaknesses and that's lack of foresight with the salary cap and loyalty to a fault.

Right now Homer is a middle of the road GM and until he improves on his weaknesses that's where he will stay. Fortunately, I don't think you can teach the ability to evaluate talent but managing the cap is something you can learn and improve on.
What about the mismanagement of assets which is teh reason I create dthis threa? I understand it has been talked about, in the original post I even mentioned that. But I wanted to get peoples opinions on how this will begin to effect us. Plus, we have threads ranging from Fire Holmgrem, Richards is Cannon, and one that normally just talks about Vodka and Scotch I do not see an issue with creating this thread.

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01-07-2010, 02:58 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The Timonen/Hartnell deal with two 1st rounders made sense and I think has worked out (I like both players, and will like it even more if Laviolette gets Hartnell to do less stupid).

The bigger problem has been that past that he's just thrown away picks in deals left and right.
They traded a 1st rounder for the rights to two pending UFAs, and then went ahead and overpaid for them.

That's the problem. If they gave up the 1st rounder to avoid a bidding war, fine-but they paid Timonen pretty much what the market would have born had he been a UFA and they overpaid Hartnell, especially when you factor in giving him a NTC.

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01-07-2010, 02:58 PM
  #97
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...that led our team in assists and was a beast the season prior before getting hurt. From what I've seen, Pitkanen has learned to be a better defender since leaving Philly.
Pitkanen is playing in the perfect hockey market for him. He has to deal with zero pressure from the fans, the media ect.
He doesnt have to worry about crying because he is getting booed in Philadelphia or Edmonton.

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01-07-2010, 02:58 PM
  #98
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Upshall was a RFA, so even if he didn't re-sign in Philly, he would have brought in compensation.

Even if he wasn't going to re-sign and was unrestricted, it's beyond stupid to trade the best player in the trade PLUS a second round draft choice for the second best player in the trade.

That is dumb. It's worse than dumb.
And he was forced to do it because he did not have enough room under teh cap to call Giroux up. So due to mismanagement of the salary cap, he was forced to mismanage our assets. Brilliant move!!!

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01-07-2010, 02:59 PM
  #99
Scoopyten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
The title of the thread is The Flyers Mismanagement of Assets. People talk about the Denis Gauthier deal, well, wasn't that a Clarke deal as well?
The deal to acquire Gauthier was a Clarke deal, sending him to El Lay was Homer.

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01-07-2010, 03:00 PM
  #100
CanadianFlyer88
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The Hartnell/Timonen acquisition was a phenomenal trade. Holmgren can be faulted for a lot of moves, but not this one, in my opinion.

Originally, the Flyers sent Forsberg to Nashville for Parent, Upshall, a 1st round pick and a 3rd round pick. He then flipped the first round pick back to Nashville for Hartnell and Timonen.

So, in the end, the deals resulted in:

To Nashville: Forsberg for a playoff run (he never returned to the Preds)

To Philadelphia: Hartnell, Parent, Timonen, Upshall, 3rd round pick (Klotz, I think; maybe it was flipped.... can't remember)

How is that not a fantastic trade? Forsberg didn't want to be part of a rebuilding process, as looked to be the case following the 06/07 season, and everyone the Flyers acquired were significant reasons for the team's success in the 07/08 season.

The Hartnell contract was fine by me; the jury's still out on the Timonen contract, as we'll have to wait to see how he plays out his final seasons.

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