HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Flyers Mismanagement of Assets

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-08-2010, 01:50 PM
  #176
GoneFullHextall
Fire Berube
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 32,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
If you really believe that the agents for both players hadn't discussed their worth with other teams, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Seriously, how many FA's did Tampa Bay attract coming off their last place finish? They added a ton of guys-the Flyers had the cap room to outspend just about everyone else in the league, to boot.
ok time to go into the time machine to July 2007.

Flyers sign
Danny Briere
Kimmo Timonen
Scott Hartnell

Lightning sign
Brad Lukowich
Michel Ouellet


wow quite a hall for Tampa Bay that season

btw here is the referance list

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?fid=4965

GoneFullHextall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2010, 02:01 PM
  #177
JDinkalage Morgoone
U of South Flurrida
 
JDinkalage Morgoone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: 308 Negra Arroyo Ln.
Country: Uzbekistan
Posts: 12,372
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
ok time to go into the time machine to July 2007.

Flyers sign
Danny Briere
Kimmo Timonen
Scott Hartnell

Lightning sign
Brad Lukowich
Michel Ouellet


wow quite a hall for Tampa Bay that season

btw here is the referance list

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?fid=4965
Looks like TB had a better offseason and it has ultimately paid dividends to their point totals since!

__________________
"Help was not promised, lovely girl. Only death."
JDinkalage Morgoone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2010, 03:36 PM
  #178
Haute Couturier
Registered User
 
Haute Couturier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 5,972
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Right, but those moves didn't problematize signing Richards, Carter, etc. Those guys are signed. The deals that have caused problems are the Jones contracts...and for all that Matt Carle has shown improvements this year, his contract is a bit rich.

So, when they originally made those moves...they were fine within the context of when they happened--this is when hindsight analysis can get dangerous. The problems developed when they didn't react to the new situation they had created with those contracts in subsequent decisions.
I don't know, I think it is possible the contracts did problematize signing them because had he re-signed Richards and Carter that summer instead he likely would have locked them into favorable rates. Look at the absolute steal Parise was signed for and he was better than either of them at the time, IMO. It seemed like their deals followed by Richards forced Holmgren to wait to sign Carter when he become restricted and the Flyers ended up with a less than favorable deal for Carter. It's not terrible, but they were forced to pay market value without the benefit of getting to buy out free agent years at a favorable rate.

I also think Richards' deal was completely unnecessary. It's not bad, but it was unnecessary to sign him to a franchise contract when he hadn't even played to a franchise level for a full season. Had he signed him to a bit more modest deal they might not have been up against it as badly.

Contracts like Jones are problematic, but Holmgren hasn't been able to sign anyone to contracts that are favorable under the cap. Everyone is at market value or completely overpaid. There's no one really out performing their contracts that aren't entry level deals.

Haute Couturier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2010, 03:58 PM
  #179
Scoopyten
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 899
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
ok time to go into the time machine to July 2007.

Flyers sign
Danny Briere
Kimmo Timonen
Scott Hartnell

Lightning sign
Brad Lukowich
Michel Ouellet


wow quite a hall for Tampa Bay that season

btw here is the referance list

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?fid=4965
The Lightning didn't finish last in 2007. They finished last in 2008 and added Rytan Malone, Mark Recchi and Olaf Kolzig, among others.

Scoopyten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2010, 04:00 PM
  #180
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I don't know, I think it is possible the contracts did problematize signing them because had he re-signed Richards and Carter that summer instead he likely would have locked them into favorable rates. Look at the absolute steal Parise was signed for and he was better than either of them at the time, IMO. It seemed like their deals followed by Richards forced Holmgren to wait to sign Carter when he become restricted and the Flyers ended up with a less than favorable deal for Carter. It's not terrible, but they were forced to pay market value without the benefit of getting to buy out free agent years at a favorable rate.

I also think Richards' deal was completely unnecessary. It's not bad, but it was unnecessary to sign him to a franchise contract when he hadn't even played to a franchise level for a full season. Had he signed him to a bit more modest deal they might not have been up against it as badly.

Contracts like Jones are problematic, but Holmgren hasn't been able to sign anyone to contracts that are favorable under the cap. Everyone is at market value or completely overpaid. There's no one really out performing their contracts that aren't entry level deals.
When Parise signs his next contract, there's a very real chance you're going to absolutely love Richards' deal. And for all that, they got a 46 goal season out of Carter...making his deal per year well below market for that last season.

I think it's dumb to sign these 30+ guys to absurd contracts, but if you can lock in a good player in their early 20s through their early 30s for a good cap hit...it's a great deal.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2010, 04:02 PM
  #181
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
The Lightning didn't finish last in 2007. They finished last in 2008 and added Rytan Malone, Mark Recchi and Olaf Kolzig, among others.
Ryan Malone is a good player, but lets not make it out like that's a coup.

Mark Recchi...where's he playing now?

Kolzig...who exactly wanted him?

You're not making a strong case here.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2010, 04:04 PM
  #182
Scoopyten
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 899
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ryan Malone is a good player, but lets not make it out like that's a coup.

Mark Recchi...where's he playing now?

Kolzig...who exactly wanted him?

You're not making a strong case here.
The 4 day old argument was whether or not free agents could be attracted to a last place team-not that they would be great signings.

Ryan Malone is a bigger coup than Scott "Walter" Hartnell.

Scoopyten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2010, 04:11 PM
  #183
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
The 4 day old argument was whether or not free agents could be attracted to a last place team-not that they would be great signings.

Ryan Malone is a bigger coup than Scott "Walter" Hartnell.
As a 29 y/o UFA? No he wasn't. Good signing, but he wasn't a bigger coup.

And the argument wasn't whether teams could attract UFAs, but whether they could land the marquee UFAs of that particular offseason. You're kidding yourself if Malone, Recchi, and Kolzig represented the marquee guys of that offseason.

I mean seriously:

Timonen, Briere, and Hartnell v. Malone, Recchi, and Kolzig?

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2010, 04:21 PM
  #184
Scoopyten
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 899
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
As a 29 y/o UFA? No he wasn't. Good signing, but he wasn't a bigger coup.

And the argument wasn't whether teams could attract UFAs, but whether they could land the marquee UFAs of that particular offseason. You're kidding yourself if Malone, Recchi, and Kolzig represented the marquee guys of that offseason.

I mean seriously:

Timonen, Briere, and Hartnell v. Malone, Recchi, and Kolzig?
There's also the fact that Tampa Bay was and is a cash strapped team that can't afford to hand out 3 contracts on par with what the Flyers did.

Hell the only reason Vinny got paid there was because if they lost him, they'd lose a ton fo their fanbase.

If you can throw enough cash around, which the Flyers could you can attract good FAs to a bad team. In the cases of Hartnell and Timonen, I guarantee their agents had talked to teams and knew the ballpark of the offers they get as UFAs. I'll also go out on a limb and say that the Flyers were told of that ballpark and knew they had to be in it to sign them.

Scoopyten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2010, 04:28 PM
  #185
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
There's also the fact that Tampa Bay was and is a cash strapped team that can't afford to hand out 3 contracts on par with what the Flyers did.

Hell the only reason Vinny got paid there was because if they lost him, they'd lose a ton fo their fanbase.

If you can throw enough cash around, which the Flyers could you can attract good FAs to a bad team.
...so the story is changing. Fact of the matter is that we're seeing what happens when you're a good team with the Phils as we speak: players want to sign with you. It remains a massive leap to assume that the Flyers would have had the success they did in signing both Timonen and Hartnell (not to mention Briere) without cutting that deal, for what was an OK-value draft pick.

Look, I understand the logic of saying, "I would rather not have given up the pick and taken my chances." That's fine...but at the same time you have to accept that you're taking on a significant dose of risk by allowing them to be negotiating on the open market. It is ALWAYS easier to close the deal when you're the only person on the phone.

Quote:
In the cases of Hartnell and Timonen, I guarantee their agents had talked to teams and knew the ballpark of the offers they get as UFAs. I'll also go out on a limb and say that the Flyers were told of that ballpark and knew they had to be in it to sign them.
I'm sure they had backdoor conversations...but don't fall into the Eklund trap of assuming that those conversations aren't loaded with five garbage trucks of BS. Teams have every reason to BS agents before the clock strikes July 1st, just as agents have every reason to BS teams. What you think you know is just that, what you "think" you know. After that deal what did the agents/players know? The Flyers were offering $X over Y years...that work for you?

Sure...they can say no and go to the open market, but we've seen just as many players have their value diminish on the open market as increase, which they need to factor in.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2010, 04:34 PM
  #186
Scoopyten
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 899
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...so the story is changing. Fact of the matter is that we're seeing what happens when you're a good team with the Phils as we speak: players want to sign with you. It remains a massive leap to assume that the Flyers would have had the success they did in signing both Timonen and Hartnell (not to mention Briere) without cutting that deal, for what was an OK-value draft pick.

Look, I understand the logic of saying, "I would rather not have given up the pick and taken my chances." That's fine...but at the same time you have to accept that you're taking on a significant dose of risk by allowing them to be negotiating on the open market. It is ALWAYS easier to close the deal when you're the only person on the phone.



I'm sure they had backdoor conversations...but don't fall into the Eklund trap of assuming that those conversations aren't loaded with five garbage trucks of BS. Teams have every reason to BS agents before the clock strikes July 1st, just as agents have every reason to BS teams. What you think you know is just that, what you "think" you know. After that deal what did the agents/players know? The Flyers were offering $X over Y years...that work for you?

Sure...they can say no and go to the open market, but we've seen just as many players have their value diminish on the open market as increase, which they need to factor in.
I'm not saying that good teams don't have an easier time of signing guys than bad teams. There's no doubt about that.

I also don't necesarrily have a big issue in dealing the pick, since somebody else posted about another team being willing to discuss trading for the negotiating rights-Think it was Edmonton-so in that case, yeah, you send the pick over.

As for the "Eklund" stuff, I think a good deal of talking goes on prior to the start of free agency. It takes weeks for guys to hammer out deals when they're restricted or if they're coming up on UFA...and on July 1st guys are signing 19 minutes into the frenzy.

Scoopyten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2010, 04:43 PM
  #187
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
As for the "Eklund" stuff, I think a good deal of talking goes on prior to the start of free agency. It takes weeks for guys to hammer out deals when they're restricted or if they're coming up on UFA...and on July 1st guys are signing 19 minutes into the frenzy.
I'm sure it does, but that's ignoring the point that I'm making...until you have an actual contract offer from someone...it's talk, and talk is cheap. So, you're an agent and Team A is telling you that, yeah, they'd be willing to give your guys some contract. But then July 1st rolls around and that team snags some other player and tells you that they don't have the money for your client anymore.

Now what?

Those conversations amount to HS gossip. Some truth to it all? Yeah. Much substance to it? No. And an agent with a clue knows that, which is why getting negotiating rights prior to July 1st has legitimate value. Because you can put a contract in front of someone and make them make a decision between a known thing, and an unknown thing...and when you're messing around with millions of dollars, the thing you can sign today looks pretty damn good.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2010, 05:06 PM
  #188
Haute Couturier
Registered User
 
Haute Couturier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 5,972
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
When Parise signs his next contract, there's a very real chance you're going to absolutely love Richards' deal. And for all that, they got a 46 goal season out of Carter...making his deal per year well below market for that last season.

I think it's dumb to sign these 30+ guys to absurd contracts, but if you can lock in a good player in their early 20s through their early 30s for a good cap hit...it's a great deal.
I absolutely agree about Parise's next deal, but his current deal has helped their current cap situation tremendously so it's not like it isn't worth it.

Richards' deal with be an absolute bargain over the course of it assuming he stays healthy and productive, but that is a big if since health is never guaranteed. His deal is not without risk.

Personally I'd rather see more Parise type deals. Yes, there will come a day where he will see a big increase in pay, but I think it's worth it to have wiggle room under the cap and to avoid being locked into so many long term contracts at once.

Haute Couturier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2010, 05:13 PM
  #189
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I absolutely agree about Parise's next deal, but his current deal has helped their current cap situation tremendously so it's not like it isn't worth it.

Richards' deal with be an absolute bargain over the course of it assuming he stays healthy and productive, but that is a big if since health is never guaranteed. His deal is not without risk.

Personally I'd rather see more Parise type deals. Yes, there will come a day where he will see a big increase in pay, but I think it's worth it to have wiggle room under the cap and to avoid being locked into so many long term contracts at once.
I agree concerning the prevalence...but when you're talking about a player like Richards, I don't have a problem with it. I like that it is going to create organizational stability on a host of grounds, not the least of which being team identity in the form of their captain (there are issues here, but for the sake of simplicity).

There are other examples where teams have gone that route just for the cap adjustment and not so much all those other intangibles, which I think justify those types of deals.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2010, 07:22 PM
  #190
captainpaxil
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 2,179
vCash: 500
it wouldnt surprise me to learn that somewhere in those "kaberle for carter and a first" discussions there wasnt mention of a qualifying offer to carter. after richards' deal it seemed like carter and umburger would be making less and both would fit nicely under the cap. then when carter started turning things around his price became so high they couldnt afford umberger. after losing umberger after a breakout playoff they signed lupul to a deal in advance and overpaid for fear of him acually fulfilling his potential and costing them more. i just dont think homer appreciated the culture shift that followed the change in rfa compensation. unrestricted guys were known to cash in but most rfas were never in danger of leaving and i think the allocation of cap money was still based around that mindest. the big money was set to go to the veterans and big free agent acquisitions pyramid style and the new market dictated something different.

instead of

cheap
moderate
expensive

it now goes

cheap
expensive
moderate

im not saying carter is overpaid or that he isnt worth every dime he gets simply that i dont think holmgren was prepared for what he was going to cost. keep in mind that hartnell was unrestricted and richards deal was kind of significant also in the fact that his number right around 5 million was sort of the flyers guy salary post leclair. gagne, primeau forsberg all at or near that number.

captainpaxil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-09-2010, 01:38 PM
  #191
GoneFullHextall
Fire Berube
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 32,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSaq View Post
The 4 day old argument was whether or not free agents could be attracted to a last place team-not that they would be great signings.

Ryan Malone is a bigger coup than Scott "Walter" Hartnell.
as much as Hartnell has struggled this season that is wrong.

how long did Recchi last in TB?

and Kolzig was 40 years old and a shell of his former self.
not even close to the Hartnell/Timonen/Briere signings.

GoneFullHextall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-09-2010, 01:43 PM
  #192
Scoopyten
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 899
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
as much as Hartnell has struggled this season that is wrong.

how long did Recchi last in TB?

and Kolzig was 40 years old and a shell of his former self.
not even close to the Hartnell/Timonen/Briere signings.
The point wasn't to compare the success of the signings.

I don't know where I said that Tampa Bay made a bunch of great signings and they all worked out perfectly.

All I said was that in the seasons that the Flyers and Tampa finished last, each team was able to attract a significant number of free agents.

The Flyers had the finances to pay more and attract better players, but Tampa made several free agent signings of note.

Let's not turn what I said into Tampa's signings were better than the Flyers, because at no point did I say anything remotely close to that.

EDIT: I'd also trade Hartnell in a heartbeat for Ryan Malone.

Scoopyten is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:13 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.