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01-08-2010, 02:55 PM
  #276
fufonzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephenYoung View Post
Does anyone here other than me think that Laraque actually played good hockey? Sounds weird to me too... but that cross-crease pass he made to Metro in the first was pretty sexy, and should of been buried.
I didn't see the entire game, but yes, I thought he was playing quite well. I guess after talking the talk, he needed to walk the walk.

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01-08-2010, 02:56 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
If GAA and SV% is what you think matters re-do your stats and see how well a goaltender's GAA stacks up against their opponents GFA and how their SV% stacks up against a team's shooting percentage. That should give you an accurate picture.
Alas, even if I did all of the work you're suggesting, you'd still discredit the numbers. Some people wouldn't believe they had cancer until they breathed their very last breath. Some people. Seriously, dude, I'm not trying to insult you or call you out, but be honest: would it make any difference to the people in this community even if I were to compile the numbers you're suggesting? The numbers would be slammed. I'd be slammed. Human nature. Pack mentality.

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01-08-2010, 03:15 PM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingRacicot View Post
Alas, even if I did all of the work you're suggesting, you'd still discredit the numbers. Some people wouldn't believe they had cancer until they breathed their very last breath. Some people. Seriously, dude, I'm not trying to insult you or call you out, but be honest: would it make any difference to the people in this community even if I were to compile the numbers you're suggesting? The numbers would be slammed. I'd be slammed. Human nature. Pack mentality.
I'm discreditting your current numbers because:

a) their validity is based on false assumptions. You're assuming that Win% assesses a team's threat on offence is in direct correlation with that team's Win%. That's just as flawed as people saying that a goaltender's winning percentage is all that matters.

b) by breaking it up into individual groups like you did, the sample numbers are so random and small that they aren't meaningful.

If you compiled the average of GF/G and average Shooting% of the teams Halak and Price faced and compared their stats to that, we would get a much more accurate picture of how well they've done, taking into consideration the scoring potential of the teams they've played against.

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01-08-2010, 04:31 PM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
All this talk of rebound control is getting ahead of itself. If Carey's rebound control is so clearly better than Halak's, then so is Halak's ability to track and stop the initial shot, and one certainly comes before the other.
lol ouch...what a monster post..

ive said that all year, price handles his rebounds way better, but stopping the first quick shot, halak is clearly faster and slightly better

but i just cant decide, would i rather a goalie who is overall solid, but lets in the occasional bad luck/softy and handles the rebounds for second chance scoring better

or the quick, catlike goalie who stops bombardments of shots for the initial scoring chance, but ALWAYs seems to have his rebounds bounce 2-3 feet in front of him in the most lethal area on the ice for goals for second chance scoring

first chance scoring and second chance scoring however both equally lead to same possible thing : a goal

if only we could fuse them together!, but like alot have said so far, we just shouldnt care, both are great, and we got em both.

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01-08-2010, 04:36 PM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
I'm discreditting your current numbers because:

a) their validity is based on false assumptions. You're assuming that Win% assesses a team's threat on offence is in direct correlation with that team's Win%. That's just as flawed as people saying that a goaltender's winning percentage is all that matters.

b) by breaking it up into individual groups like you did, the sample numbers are so random and small that they aren't meaningful.

If you compiled the average of GF/G and average Shooting% of the teams Halak and Price faced and compared their stats to that, we would get a much more accurate picture of how well they've done, taking into consideration the scoring potential of the teams they've played against.
The truth is finally revealed. And I totally agree with that bolded paragraph, and have been laughing at the attempts to paint certain teams as offensive "cream puffs" so far. Seriously. Get a clue.

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01-08-2010, 04:36 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephenYoung View Post
Does anyone here other than me think that Laraque actually played good hockey? Sounds weird to me too... but that cross-crease pass he made to Metro in the first was pretty sexy, and should of been buried.
pass wasnt cross crease and metro ringed it off the post so the goalie was beat

but yeah, laraque did play pretty good, BUT, i just. dont. care, his spot and dagostini should be white and pyatts. we are a better team with them on it,
when we had 7 regulars injured, 7, and things were getting rough, pyatt and white were on the team and we somehow managed to win some hockey games we shouldnt of, white and pyatt helped start the jump of our at the time putrid pk from 24th to where it is today (7th?)

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01-08-2010, 04:58 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
pass wasnt cross crease and metro ringed it off the post so the goalie was beat

but yeah, laraque did play pretty good, BUT, i just. dont. care, his spot and dagostini should be white and pyatts. we are a better team with them on it,
when we had 7 regulars injured, 7, and things were getting rough, pyatt and white were on the team and we somehow managed to win some hockey games we shouldnt of, white and pyatt helped start the jump of our at the time putrid pk from 24th to where it is today (7th?)

I caught a Bulldogs game last week -- Pyatt looked so lost (a few times), it was incredible to think this guy was just in the NHL. He actually drew a couple boo's, which is incredible considering the crowd barely makes a noise unless the Jumbotron tells them to. My dad tried to start a GO DOGS GO chant and someone told him to quiet down lol

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01-08-2010, 05:06 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
I'm discreditting your current numbers because:

a) their validity is based on false assumptions. You're assuming that Win% assesses a team's threat on offence is in direct correlation with that team's Win%. That's just as flawed as people saying that a goaltender's winning percentage is all that matters.

b) by breaking it up into individual groups like you did, the sample numbers are so random and small that they aren't meaningful.

If you compiled the average of GF/G and average Shooting% of the teams Halak and Price faced and compared their stats to that, we would get a much more accurate picture of how well they've done, taking into consideration the scoring potential of the teams they've played against.
GF/G & Team Shooting %? Okay, done. Give me some time, though.

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01-08-2010, 05:08 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
The truth is finally revealed. And I totally agree with that bolded paragraph, and have been laughing at the attempts to paint certain teams as offensive "cream puffs" so far. Seriously. Get a clue.

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01-08-2010, 05:23 PM
  #285
Ryan O'Byrne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
pass wasnt cross crease and metro ringed it off the post so the goalie was beat

but yeah, laraque did play pretty good, BUT, i just. dont. care, his spot and dagostini should be white and pyatts. we are a better team with them on it,
when we had 7 regulars injured, 7, and things were getting rough, pyatt and white were on the team and we somehow managed to win some hockey games we shouldnt of, white and pyatt helped start the jump of our at the time putrid pk from 24th to where it is today (7th?)
the goalie got a small piece which made it hit the post ..at least thats how it looked on the replay I seen

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01-09-2010, 11:00 AM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
The truth is finally revealed. And I totally agree with that bolded paragraph, and have been laughing at the attempts to paint certain teams as offensive "cream puffs" so far. Seriously. Get a clue.
The stats are in:

In the games the Habs put Halak in net:
An average goaltender would have had a GAA of 3.07 and a save percentage of 91.00%
Halak has a 2.50 GAA and a 92.68% save percentage.


In the games the Habs put Price in net:
An average goaltender would have had a GAA of 2.91 and a save percentage of 90.78%
Price has a 2.67 GAA and a 91.55% save percentage.


So as of right now, Halak is playing better than Price. Although the teams Halak plays have a slightly lower shooting percentage, Halak is facing an average of three more shots per game than Price, which actually makes it such that Halak has had the tougher job this year (on top of posting better numbers).

Myth: Halak playing against lower tiered team has made his job easier.

BUSTED!

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01-09-2010, 11:08 AM
  #287
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Both goaltenders are playing well; if you are a Canadiens fan, you should be happy. If you are just looking to put down one goalie at the expense of another, you are a fan of the player, not the team. The Canadiens problems this year have been the result of an inconsistent offense, not because of our two fine goaltenders.

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01-09-2010, 11:10 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by CTHabsfan View Post
Both goaltenders are playing well; if you are a Canadiens fan, you should be happy. If you are just looking to put down one goalie at the expense of another, you are a fan of the player, not the team. The Canadiens problems this year have been the result of an inconsistent offense, not because of our two fine goaltenders.
Right on !

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01-09-2010, 11:43 AM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
The stats are in:

In the games the Habs put Halak in net:
An average goaltender would have had a GAA of 3.07 and a save percentage of 91.00%
Halak has a 2.50 GAA and a 92.68% save percentage.


In the games the Habs put Price in net:
An average goaltender would have had a GAA of 2.91 and a save percentage of 90.78%
Price has a 2.67 GAA and a 91.55% save percentage.


So as of right now, Halak is playing better than Price. Although the teams Halak plays have a slightly lower shooting percentage, Halak is facing an average of three more shots per game than Price, which actually makes it such that Halak has had the tougher job this year (on top of posting better numbers).

Myth: Halak playing against lower tiered team has made his job easier.

BUSTED!



King Racicot : " but but .... but cream-puff teams ... "

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01-09-2010, 11:54 AM
  #290
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Thanks to fufonzo for taking the time to compile those numbers. Let's see how that shakes down the conversation. Not that anyone (including myself) is now going to conclude that Price should be the one traded, but at least it is more obvious that (regardless of all evaluations of talent and potential) Halak IS "rising to the occasion" a bit more than Price so far this year.

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01-09-2010, 11:56 AM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
The stats are in:

In the games the Habs put Halak in net:
An average goaltender would have had a GAA of 3.07 and a save percentage of 91.00%
Halak has a 2.50 GAA and a 92.68% save percentage.


In the games the Habs put Price in net:
An average goaltender would have had a GAA of 2.91 and a save percentage of 90.78%
Price has a 2.67 GAA and a 91.55% save percentage.


So as of right now, Halak is playing better than Price. Although the teams Halak plays have a slightly lower shooting percentage, Halak is facing an average of three more shots per game than Price, which actually makes it such that Halak has had the tougher job this year (on top of posting better numbers).

Myth: Halak playing against lower tiered team has made his job easier.

BUSTED!
Thank you for posting this.

If this doesn't clear it up for some people on these boards, and they continue to make arguments then I say everyone just gives up. Not going to get much more logical then this post right here.

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01-09-2010, 12:16 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
Thank you for posting this.

If this doesn't clear it up for some people on these boards, and they continue to make arguments then I say everyone just gives up. Not going to get much more logical then this post right here.
LMAO, no it doesn't. It doesn't explain why the team scores more goals when Halak is in net. Myth Not Busted !

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01-09-2010, 02:06 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by PunkinDrublic View Post
LMAO, no it doesn't. It doesn't explain why the team scores more goals when Halak is in net. Myth Not Busted !
Maybe they feel more confident with Halak in net, and they are working deeper in the opponent's offensive zone.

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01-09-2010, 02:19 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
Maybe they feel more confident with Halak in net, and they are working deeper in the opponent's offensive zone.
Maybe that is part of it, but not enough to change the coach's game plan/"system", I'm sure, nor how the players choose to execute it. Unless you think the coach gives them completely different directions in the dressing room depending on who is between the pipes on any given night.

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01-09-2010, 02:30 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
Maybe they feel more confident with Halak in net, and they are working deeper in the opponent's offensive zone.


Because when we played the Pens, Sabres and Flames we really dominated in the offensive zone right?

We play so much better with Halak yet we gave up 130 shots in what 3 games?

Those stats above are an overall look at Halak's performance this year. Overall, Halak has been great this year. But when you start to look at the games individually you see he struggles against one half of the league while he is lights out against the other half.

I believe his record is 2-6 vs teams above .500. In those 2 wins, he could have been pulled in the first vs the Rags and we had to score 5 goals to win. The other game was Atlanta, where he did play well even though he gave up 3.

Price's numbers when he wins - 1.64 gaa, .949 save %, 0 SO, 31.7 saves.
Halak's numbers when he wins - 1.87 gaa, .948 save %, 2 SO. 34.6 saves.

Price's numbers when he loses - 3.25 gaa, .896 save %, 33.7 saves.
Halak's numbers when he loses - 3.82 gaa, .875 save %, 25.6 saves.

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01-09-2010, 02:34 PM
  #296
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by holyhabs87 View Post
But when you start to look at the games individually you see he struggles against one half of the league while he is lights out against the other half.
Actually, when you look at the games individually, both goalies struggle against teams with the best records, and one of them performs much better against the bottom teams.

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01-09-2010, 03:09 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Actually, when you look at the games individually, both goalies struggle against teams with the best records, and one of them performs much better against the bottom teams.
Unless I have made a mistake..

Price against teams above .500 = .912 save%
Halak against teams above .500 = .896 save %

Price against teams below .500 = .909 save %.
Halak against teams below .500 = .948 save %

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01-09-2010, 03:13 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by holyhabs87 View Post
Unless I have made a mistake..

Price against teams above .500 = .912 save%
Halak against teams above .500 = .896 save %

Price against teams below .500 = .909 save %.
Halak against teams below .500 = .948 save %
Still not as relevant as the numbers involving the offensive production of opponents. Teams can improve their record through excellent offensive or defensive play/goaltending (similary, teams can slide in the standings despite excellent offensive or defensive play/goaltending), and one (opponents' offense) obviously impacts our goaltenders more than the other (opponents' defense/goaltending).

edit: in any event, this should be continued in the H vs P thread, so cut and paste then reply there if you want.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 01-09-2010 at 04:17 PM.
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01-09-2010, 03:19 PM
  #299
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No! I was trying to avoid this debate and lasted 1 day lol

I am done!

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