It's just what you said earlier. "Sometimes rumored/attempted trades don't actually happen? If so...genius stuff there."
The Kaberle yeah-buts, kind of irrelevant, he didn't end up here regardless of why or why not.
Wasn't trying to be Noam Chomsky here.
That's just it though...it's a non-point, and when someone pointed that out you went about debating 'em. Should we ignore rumors because so often they don't come to fruition? Sure...but then sometimes they do: Pronger. Kaberle may very well be here if not for a NTC.
That isn't a "yeah-but," that means the Flyers had real interest and a real offer and if not for a bit of context a deal would have gone down.
The real point isn't that deals don't go down all the time...it's that the Flyers always have their fingers in the jar, and that's why these rumors are always out there.
They're after them and for the most part do not come up with them. The trade for Pronger wasn't even a deadline trade even though it was discussed. Why or why not wasn't really the issue, and saw no reason why this would be any different than years past during deadline season.
It was only a debate, because others made it so. It was really a simple point, which shouldn't need much elaboration on.
Classic "jump on the loudmouth" series of posts here.
Nothing really more to it. One simple point which didn't really warrant much further discussion. "Some reported trade rumors don't happen." Mind-blowing stuff here.
Sorry, I'm just wondering, I have no problem with a hockey debate, but what are you guys even talking about?
How a very simple point becomes a full-blown debate because of mitigating factors which was of no consequence to the point.
2+2=4
"Yeah, but not if 4 came after 5, then 2+2=5"
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865
In what world is a 46 goal scorer the starting price for a non-starting goalie?
Non-starting goalies usually aren't worth more than a mid-draft pick. 2nd rounder at most, and that's if you're taking a chance. If you're desperate, then you give up a 1st for Dwayne Roloson.
How a very simple point becomes a full-blown debate because of mitigating factors which was of no consequence to the point.
2+2=4
"Yeah, but not if 4 came after 5, then 2+2=5"
I'm already lost.
Ah well, even if Garrioch is a hack, we have a much better chance of trading for Halak than we do for Kovy, I don't think that Holmgren has gone that crazy yet.
I am really up for us going after Halak, but if we even consider paying what Montreal are asking then we need shooting. Give them a third and a mediocre prospect. If they want Carter, they need to start adding substantially.
Yeah, the problem is that we don't really have the mid-range prospects that are good for a deal like that.
We have the 2 bluechip guys, then Marshall and Legein, and then a pile of crap.
Obviously we'd be crazy to deal JVR/Giroux, I think it'd be dumb to deal Marshall considering we're going to seriously need young D pretty soon, and I don't think Legein has a ton of value considering his history.
So then you're looking at offering a prospect with a lot of question marks (Nodl/Maroon/Bourdon or someone) and a 3rd-4th for a guy who's put up a .918 save percentage in 72 starts (not just a prospect) and Montreal walks away laughing.
If they'd take Coburn, that's something I'd at least start considering.
I don't blame you, wasn't supposed to be a debate to begin with unless someone went out of their way for it.
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh
Ah well, even if Garrioch is a hack, we have a much better chance of trading for Halak than we do for Kovy, I don't think that Holmgren has gone that crazy yet.
Halak is relatively unproven, certainly not as someone to be given the reigns (not news to anyone). He could end up being an Olympic hero like Niittymaki was, but we've seen goalies play well, play well and lose, get hot, and just figure out how to win games - all in our own barn. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop on Emery still, but I don't think we've seen enough fail on the part of Emery, Boucher, and Leighton that we should be scrambling at the deadline to get another of their ilk - keeping in mind that we'd have to send one of them to Montreal if we were to trade for Halak (if I was Gainey, I'd want Boucher unless Leighton was waived again).
He's done less in his career than Marty Biron, who everyone couldn't wait to get here, and in turn, couldn't wait to get out of here.
Halak is relatively unproven, certainly not as someone to be given the reigns (not news to anyone). He could end up being an Olympic hero like Niittymaki was, but we've seen goalies play well, play well and lose, get hot, and just figure out how to win games - all in our own barn. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop on Emery still, but I don't think we've seen enough fail on the part of Emery, Boucher, and Leighton that we should be scrambling at the deadline to get another of their ilk - keeping in mind that we'd have to send one of them to Montreal if we were to trade for Halak (if I was Gainey, I'd want Boucher unless Leighton was waived again).
He's done less in his career than Marty Biron, who everyone couldn't wait to get here, and in turn, couldn't wait to get out of here.
As I just pointed out, Halak has 72 starts of .918 play, so either that's a pretty massive fluke or he's just pretty good and has been stuck behind an arguably inferior goaltender.
And as much as I'm glad Leighton has done well, this bubble is due to burst any day now, it's just a matter of time and I think Emery is still a question mark.
I don't think Halak is ever going to be in the top-5 or even top-10 of NHL goalies, but we shouldn't need someone like that, we just need someone competent.
I mean, Leighton has put up those numbers with us by being competent, outside of the Pitt game (where I thought he was great), it's not like he's been hauling us out of the fire or stealing games for us.
I would not move anything beyond Coburn for Halak + a warm body on D
As for Kovalchuk, the only 3 players I am willing to include in a deal like that are Gagne, Briere, and Hartnell, but that is a total pipe dream so its best to forget about it. Trading Giroux or JVR would be a collosal mistake
As I just pointed out, Halak has 72 starts of .918 play, so either that's a pretty massive fluke or he's just pretty good and has been stuck behind an arguably inferior goaltender.
And as much as I'm glad Leighton has done well, this bubble is due to burst any day now, it's just a matter of time and I think Emery is still a question mark.
I don't think Halak is ever going to be in the top-5 or even top-10 of NHL goalies, but we shouldn't need someone like that, we just need someone competent.
I mean, Leighton has put up those numbers with us by being competent, outside of the Pitt game (where I thought he was great), it's not like he's been hauling us out of the fire or stealing games for us.
Leighton's just gotten by on most accounts, but they say it's better to be lucky than good.
Halak has the numbers, numbers don't always tell the whole story. Biron had decent numbers too. If it made sense I would welcome it, but not if Gainey drives the ship on it. Coburn and Boucher for Gorges and Halak could work for me.
As I just pointed out, Halak has 72 starts of .918 play, so either that's a pretty massive fluke or he's just pretty good and has been stuck behind an arguably inferior goaltender.
I mean, Leighton has put up those numbers with us by being competent, outside of the Pitt game (where I thought he was great), it's not like he's been hauling us out of the fire or stealing games for us.
What a wonderful expression. "Hauling us out of the fire" when you think about it in a literal sense, it is so dramatic and bad ass.
I also am a Halak fan. I just don't want the Flyers to pay the price to acquire him, particularly when I think they have a goal tender of similar ability on the roster already (Emery).
By most accounts in addition to the games I have seen, Halak has earned his numbers and is not a byproduct of great D.
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514
Leighton's just gotten by on most accounts, but they say it's better to be lucky than good.
Halak has the numbers, numbers don't always tell the whole story. Biron had decent numbers too. If it made sense I would welcome it, but not if Gainey drives the ship on it. Coburn and Boucher for Gorges and Halak could work for me.
I think of Halak as "A Tale of Two Turcos": One night he's 28 year old Turco and is unbeatable, the next, he's geriatric Turco and it's tough to win with him. I think the Flyers are better off with a steadier guy (perhaps at the expense of upside).
Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 01-10-2010 at 11:27 AM.
Regardless, not only does Carter for Halak never happen in the real world, Kovalchuk is almost certainly not coming back unless we have some kind of hope for signing him. That hope of course doesn't exist unless some kind of package like Briere and Hartnell was headed back the other way, the kind of package that would be dumb to send since he isn't already signed.
"Hašek was traded to the Buffalo Sabres for goalie Stephane Beauregard and future considerations, which later materialized into a draft pick used to obtain Éric Dazé."
Forgot how little a back up goalie brought back then.
Im not sure how much its going to cost to get him. Hossa went for dirt cheap. Carter going there basically means they replace goal scoring loss NOW and get 4 1st rounders for the furture. Thats more than any team will offer them. Any other player going there would be for salary, but we would need more coming back if its Carter and Hartnell than just Kovy.
But man he is a crazy sick player and he hates Crosby, match made in heaven.
So we basically complain about depth now because our 3rd line still needs a winger and when we lose one top 6 player we are a 2 line team...but we want to trade house for Kovalchuk. Oh right, that makes sense. Lets trade Carter, Giroux or JVR, Coburn, and a pick for one player. That will make our depth much better, not to mention fixing the bottom pairings of our defense...right.
Im not sure how much its going to cost to get him. Hossa went for dirt cheap. Carter going there basically means they replace goal scoring loss NOW and get 4 1st rounders for the furture. Thats more than any team will offer them. Any other player going there would be for salary, but we would need more coming back if its Carter and Hartnell than just Kovy.
But man he is a crazy sick player and he hates Crosby, match made in heaven.
