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Please don't be penciling Hall into our lineup!

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Old
01-11-2010, 10:25 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Yes he does sometimes post ridiculous stuff , but so do we all . What I've noticed is that posters tend to reply to dsf ( maybe , like you , they do so because they think his posts are "crap" , I don't know ) . When posters reply to him , a thread moves along and people with better information are drawn to participate .
DSF takes every thread off course and turns it into a discussion of the Nucks vs Oilers. That is my big problem with him. It isn't that he is 100% negative on the Oilers under all circumstances, we have a few posters like that and they help add perspective. But DSF is so obviously a nucks concern-troll it is painful for me to watch him start back up at his old game of derailing most Oilers threads into discussions about how great Kesler is and how Shirokov is elite. Count me in with the group that enjoyed the actual Oilers talk around here during DSFs absence.

Mods I realize I may have crossed a line with this post(in terms of discussing posters) so if you need to warn me or give me points or whatever fine, I just think we all need to have a talk about DSF and his posting.

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01-11-2010, 12:06 PM
  #202
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You mean AHL all star Shirokov who is being given time to adjust to the North American game?

If you have doubts about Brassard you need to watxch some BJ's games. He'll be twice the player that Gagner is.

The rest of the bunch as stated looks like MPS and Eberle could be players, the rest is a mass of meh.
AHL All Star???????? Really......... Cmon........... You're joking......... Oh maybe your not.



Rob Schremp = AHL All Star


Worst argument ever. AHL All Star

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01-11-2010, 02:07 PM
  #203
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You guys seriously love to feed the trolls.

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01-11-2010, 02:14 PM
  #204
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You guys seriously love to feed the trolls.
nah we are just bored

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01-11-2010, 02:23 PM
  #205
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nah we are just bored
You read my mind, those are my thoughts as well

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Old
01-11-2010, 03:33 PM
  #206
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You guys seriously love to feed the trolls.
No, just the obvious ones.

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01-11-2010, 04:01 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
DSF takes every thread off course and turns it into a discussion of the Nucks vs Oilers.
Actually I don't believe dsf brought up the Canucks or Shirokov in this thread. Other posters did.

And I actually think that DSF has made some valid points in this thread.

#1. I agree with the OP. People should really stop putting up lineups with Hall/Seguin/Fowler. They haven't been drafted yet, they are not Oilers property, in fact the Oilers haven't even claimed a bottom five pick yet. Let's at least wait until the end of the season when the drafting spots have been determined.

#2. I find a lot of posters really REALLY overrate Oiler prospects. Petry has not demonstrated anything to indicate that he will be a top pairing dman. I highly doubt that MPS and Eberle will turn this club around if they both manage to make the roster.

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01-11-2010, 05:34 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Actually I don't believe dsf brought up the Canucks or Shirokov in this thread. Other posters did.

And I actually think that DSF has made some valid points in this thread.

#1. I agree with the OP. People should really stop putting up lineups with Hall/Seguin/Fowler. They haven't been drafted yet, they are not Oilers property, in fact the Oilers haven't even claimed a bottom five pick yet. Let's at least wait until the end of the season when the drafting spots have been determined.

#2. I find a lot of posters really REALLY overrate Oiler prospects. Petry has not demonstrated anything to indicate that he will be a top pairing dman. I highly doubt that MPS and Eberle will turn this club around if they both manage to make the roster.
#1: What else would a hockey discussion board be if there was no talk about hypotheticals? Especially with the horrid season the Oilers are having. Us picking top 5 is certainly more plausible than, say, Calgary trading Phaneuf or some of the other more ridiculous rumours, trade proposals, etc. which have sprung up here and elsewhere over the years.

If you want evidence, see http://www.sportsclubstats.com/NHL/W...st/Oilers.html. We are almost certainly going to finish in the bottom 3 of the WC. It is virtually a certainty that we will finish with a top 10 pick and more than likely we will get a top 5 pick.

#2: This is not a trend unique to the Oilers board. It is simply a fact that a team's fans, generally, would be more pumped about their prospects than other fans, perhaps due to exposure to a greater amount of information & propaganda. The simple fact is that no one is sure about what prospects not in the NHL can do in the NHL, be it AHL All-Star Schremp, Shirokov, or any other prospect.

On the assertion you make, I believe you are correct. But I would go further and say no single prospect, alone, can turn around his club's fortunes. The best examples in recent history are probably the 2005-2006 Penguins and 2005-2006/2006-2007 Capitals. Despite the stellar efforts from Crosby and Ovechkin respectively, both teams were dismal failures. No one would dispute that MPS + Eberle combined are even close to the level of Crosby or Ovechkin, so it follows that them alone would not turn this club into a winner. I just hope management doesn't put that kind of pressure on them.

But this is why posters here are urging for trades to deal expensive and declining veterans - the Oilers need to clear space and keep only quality veterans to help the kids and kids who they think will be a major contributor in the upcoming years.

I think people are rightfully excited about our prospect pool, which is excellent in terms of potential quality. We don't have a surefire superstar, but we have some potential stars (though more likely they'll be the above average to slightly below average reliable types). In this upcoming draft, we're poised to pick in the top 3 (cross your fingers), and if not, even a top 10 pick would add to this solid prospect depth.

And that's all I have to say.

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01-11-2010, 05:53 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post

#2. I find a lot of posters really REALLY overrate Oiler prospects. Petry has not demonstrated anything to indicate that he will be a top pairing dman. I highly doubt that MPS and Eberle will turn this club around if they both manage to make the roster.
All too true.

Every year I see people penciling in prospects into their projected lineups and raving about how good they are.

Almost unequivocally the prospects disappoint year after year after year. That is, they disappoint all those delusional fans that expects massive things from them. Folks should go back a few years on this board and check people's lineups and point projections. 95% of the time the projections fall massively short of reality.

And so one again people are expecting the world from MPS and Eberle and every other prospect. Going on past seasons one must excuse me if I do not buy into the massive hype.

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Old
01-11-2010, 06:31 PM
  #210
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Almost unequivocally the prospects disappoint year after year after year. That is, they disappoint all those delusional fans that expects massive things from them. Folks should go back a few years on this board and check people's lineups and point projections. 95% of the time the projections fall massively short of reality.
That's exactly what I've been saying. The same people who have Eberle pencilled in for 30 goals and 60 points are sending out trade proposals to ship Sam Gagner out of town. Yet Gagner is only 6 months older than Eberle. If Gagner wasn't on this team, he'd be the next saviour ready to come in.

And don't even get me started on Linus Omark...

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01-11-2010, 07:35 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Actually I don't believe dsf brought up the Canucks or Shirokov in this thread. Other posters did.

And I actually think that DSF has made some valid points in this thread.

#1. I agree with the OP. People should really stop putting up lineups with Hall/Seguin/Fowler. They haven't been drafted yet, they are not Oilers property, in fact the Oilers haven't even claimed a bottom five pick yet. Let's at least wait until the end of the season when the drafting spots have been determined.

#2. I find a lot of posters really REALLY overrate Oiler prospects. Petry has not demonstrated anything to indicate that he will be a top pairing dman. I highly doubt that MPS and Eberle will turn this club around if they both manage to make the roster.
DSF is the one who mentioned that Kesler is among the elite young centers in the game and Brassard too for some reason so naturally since Kesler is a Canuck, people brought up the fact that he once caled Shirokov an elite prospect....If it was the other way around, i guarantee that he would have rubbed it in that person's face...
Also, what's wrong with speculating that we might POSSIBLY get Hall or Seguin and discuss hypothetical situations, isn't that what a discussion board is for, to discuss POSSIBLITIES.
I do tend to agree with your 3rd point however, i did mention that Petry might have the potential to be a top pairing defenseman but more likely will be a second pairing guy.... People do tend to overrate our prospects but i think it's safe to say that MPS is one of the best prospects that we've had in years just based on his physical tools alone, whether that translates or not, who knows but the tools are there.
Eberle, on the other hand, i think is starting to become a tad overrated based on his WJC performance although there is reason to get encouraged by him also to an extent.

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01-11-2010, 07:53 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
DSF is the one who mentioned that Kesler is among the elite young centers in the game and Brassard too for some reason so naturally since Kesler is a Canuck, people brought up the fact that he once caled Shirokov an elite prospect....If it was the other way around, i guarantee that he would have rubbed it in that person's face...
Also, what's wrong with speculating that we might POSSIBLY get Hall or Seguin and discuss hypothetical situations, isn't that what a discussion board is for, to discuss POSSIBLITIES.
I do tend to agree with your 3rd point however, i did mention that Petry might have the potential to be a top pairing defenseman but more likely will be a second pairing guy.... People do tend to overrate our prospects but i think it's safe to say that MPS is one of the best prospects that we've had in years just based on his physical tools alone, whether that translates or not, who knows but the tools are there.
Eberle, on the other hand, i think is starting to become a tad overrated based on his WJC performance although there is reason to get encouraged by him also to an extent.
Well, lets look at that if you're interested in a rational discussion.

Kesler is 25 years old...not even at his peak yet. Had a very slow offensive start to the season but is still almost on a PPG pace playing second line minutes with limited PP time. Also a Selke nominee last season. What's not to like. The kid is a player.

I didn't bring up Shirokov but he, like many other Europeans, had the deer in the headlights syndrome when he hit the NHL. Happens to a lot of them and could very well happen to players like MPS and Omark if they ever come over. The jury is out but at least he is willing to play in the AHL, unlike Omark.

Hard to get a good handle on Brassard this season since the Jackets have been so bad but my gut is that he's going to be a very good player.

And there's nothing wrong with speculating that the Oilers MIGHT get a top three pick but when you count on that and start extrapolating that into an immediate improvement in the team is when you push the limits of credibility.

We could have had this exact conversation three season ago about Gagner, Cogliano and Nilsson.

How's that working out and why do you expect it will be different this time?

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01-11-2010, 08:09 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Well, lets look at that if you're interested in a rational discussion.

Kesler is 25 years old...not even at his peak yet. Had a very slow offensive start to the season but is still almost on a PPG pace playing second line minutes with limited PP time. Also a Selke nominee last season. What's not to like. The kid is a player.

I didn't bring up Shirokov but he, like many other Europeans, had the deer in the headlights syndrome when he hit the NHL. Happens to a lot of them and could very well happen to players like MPS and Omark if they ever come over. The jury is out but at least he is willing to play in the AHL, unlike Omark.

Hard to get a good handle on Brassard this season since the Jackets have been so bad but my gut is that he's going to be a very good player.

And there's nothing wrong with speculating that the Oilers MIGHT get a top three pick but when you count on that and start extrapolating that into an immediate improvement in the team is when you push the limits of credibility.

We could have had this exact conversation three season ago about Gagner, Cogliano and Nilsson.

How's that working out and why do you expect it will be different this time?

I'm sorry, there's nothing that you can say to convince me that Kesler is an elite young center who you included with names like Getzlaf and Kopitar.... I would kill to have Kesler on the Oilers and think that he's a very good second line center who will make a good contribution come playoff time but he's just not an elite center, not even close.
I personally don't think Omark will ever be an Oiler and have never seen Shirokov play so i can't really comment on him so as you say, the jury is still out.
I like Brassard but you said that he will be twice the player that Gagner is and i see no evidence that he will be that good and has accomplished even less than Gagner, they both had ppg streaks for about 25 games and Gagner has slightly better stats this year despite regressing so the jury is still out on those two although i must admit that i would pick Brassard out of the two but it's close and not the huge gap that you make it out to be.
As far as the new crop of Oilers prospects is concerned, it's all speculation just like it is with almost every prospect and MPS at least seems to be a far superior prospect to Gagner, Cogliano or Nilsson based on what i've seen from him and Eberle (although becoming overrated) just seems like one of those special players, there's just something about him so who knows how it will translate to the NHL and IF (i'm just saying IF, please don't anybody shoot me) we get Hall or Seguin, those are two POTENTIAL superstar prospects.... I think it will be huge for us to draft top 2-3 this year and get Hall, i just see so much potential in him, i believe that he could be a franchise changer, i don't know enough about Seguin to comment on him but by all accounts, he's a terrific prospect also.
Also, i used an example of teams who basically turned it around overnight in Colorado, Phoenix and the Islanders, teams that are comprised of mainly young players so it is not uncommon for young players to turn around a franchise in 1-2 years

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01-11-2010, 08:37 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Well, lets look at that if you're interested in a rational discussion.

Kesler is 25 years old...not even at his peak yet. Had a very slow offensive start to the season but is still almost on a PPG pace playing second line minutes with limited PP time. Also a Selke nominee last season. What's not to like. The kid is a player.

Meh, Kesler is an overrated Pre-concussion Stoll. Prove otherwise.

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01-11-2010, 08:43 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
I'm sorry, there's nothing that you can say to convince me that Kesler is an elite young center who you included with names like Getzlaf and Kopitar.... I would kill to have Kesler on the Oilers and think that he's a very good second line center who will make a good contribution come playoff time but he's just not an elite center, not even close.
I personally don't think Omark will ever be an Oiler and have never seen Shirokov play so i can't really comment on him so as you say, the jury is still out.
I like Brassard but you said that he will be twice the player that Gagner is and i see no evidence that he will be that good and has accomplished even less than Gagner, they both had ppg streaks for about 25 games and Gagner has slightly better stats this year despite regressing so the jury is still out on those two although i must admit that i would pick Brassard out of the two but it's close and not the huge gap that you make it out to be.
As far as the new crop of Oilers prospects is concerned, it's all speculation just like it is with almost every prospect and MPS at least seems to be a far superior prospect to Gagner, Cogliano or Nilsson based on what i've seen from him and Eberle (although becoming overrated) just seems like one of those special players, there's just something about him so who knows how it will translate to the NHL and IF (i'm just saying IF, please don't anybody shoot me) we get Hall or Seguin, those are two POTENTIAL superstar prospects.... I think it will be huge for us to draft top 2-3 this year and get Hall, i just see so much potential in him, i believe that he could be a franchise changer, i don't know enough about Seguin to comment on him but by all accounts, he's a terrific prospect also.
Also, i used an example of teams who basically turned it around overnight in Colorado, Phoenix and the Islanders, teams that are comprised of mainly young players so it is not uncommon for young players to turn around a franchise in 1-2 years



Fair enough but interesting you should point to those three teams as examples.

Colorado has a a deep pool of young players already on the roster including Paul Statsny, Matt Duchene, Ryan O'Reilly, Chris Stewart and Kyle Cumisky. So, it would appear their rebuild is two or three years more advanced than the Oilers.

Phoenix is pretty much the same except Maloney plugged in a lot of cheap veterans to get the team to the next level.

The Islanders have Tavares, Okposo, Moulson and Bailey already in the fold and are in 10th place.


What those teams likely all have in common is they will likely miss the playoffs and I'm not sure why you would expect the addition of a couple of teenagers will be any different for the Oilers, especially when there is huge doubt about whether they will be Oiler property or ever play in the NHL (MPS and Omark).

And while I would agree Kesler is a notch below Kopitar and Getzlaf offensively, he is surely one of the best two way centres in the league.

There was much discussion here over the past two years that Horcoff was a number one centre because his point totals were in the top 30 in the league so he must be.

If you apply that same logic to this season, there are eight teams that have TWO centres in the top 30 in points.

Pittsburgh, San Jose, Tampa Bay, Buffalo, Atlanta, Dallas, Philadelphia and Vancouver.

While I agree Kesler is a second line centre on the Canucks, on many teams, including the Oilers, he would be the first line centre.

That's pretty good company.

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01-11-2010, 08:47 PM
  #216
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Please try to keep the thread somewhat on topic guys. Thanks.

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01-11-2010, 08:51 PM
  #217
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Hall might not be ready but what about Nino Niederreiter . The kid might not have a lot of points, but he looked like he was more dominant than any one guy on the Canadian team. That might be his downfall, yet if we could draft him through a series of trades I'd say do it.

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01-11-2010, 08:52 PM
  #218
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On another note, the mid season draft prospect rankings are out:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/can...z7uJZx9VX6qyxw

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01-11-2010, 09:30 PM
  #219
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I think I would prefer Seguin over Hall anyway.

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01-11-2010, 09:35 PM
  #220
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Anything can happen in the next 40 games: a 4 game win streak could put us drafting 6th in short order. Pegging our hopes on "Hall or nothing" is going to result in a big dissapointment. IMO we are just as likely to draft 5th as we are 2nd, thus we should be talking about prospects throughout the spectrum.

The people who would ship out Gagner need to give their head a shake. Give this kid at least 3 more years to break the 55 point barrier before labelling him as a mediocre player or marginal second liner. He is a MAJOR building block for the future and will be a legitimate first line centre in 2-4 years (flirting with All-Star).

The same goes for MPS and eberle: temper your expectations.

This team has to do three things in the next couple of years:

1. Lose
2. Shed/eject veterans: expiring contracts or waivers
3. Jettison half the kids, pick the winners: Brule, Gagner, Smid, out: Gilbert, Cogliano, Nilsson.

Do you see a trend here? Capspace, capspace, capspace, realism and draft picks.

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01-11-2010, 11:30 PM
  #221
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Innis&Gunn and penciling Hall into the lineup are the only things that make me happy these days. Don't you dare take that away from me.

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01-11-2010, 11:32 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by saskyoil View Post
Anything can happen in the next 40 games: a 4 game win streak could put us drafting 6th in short order. Pegging our hopes on "Hall or nothing" is going to result in a big dissapointment. IMO we are just as likely to draft 5th as we are 2nd, thus we should be talking about prospects throughout the spectrum.

The people who would ship out Gagner need to give their head a shake. Give this kid at least 3 more years to break the 55 point barrier before labelling him as a mediocre player or marginal second liner. He is a MAJOR building block for the future and will be a legitimate first line centre in 2-4 years (flirting with All-Star).

The same goes for MPS and eberle: temper your expectations.

This team has to do three things in the next couple of years:

1. Lose
2. Shed/eject veterans: expiring contracts or waivers
3. Jettison half the kids, pick the winners: Brule, Gagner, Smid, out: Gilbert, Cogliano, Nilsson.

Do you see a trend here? Capspace, capspace, capspace, realism and draft picks.
THIS

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01-11-2010, 11:43 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by saskyoil View Post
Anything can happen in the next 40 games: a 4 game win streak could put us drafting 6th in short order. Pegging our hopes on "Hall or nothing" is going to result in a big dissapointment. IMO we are just as likely to draft 5th as we are 2nd, thus we should be talking about prospects throughout the spectrum.

The people who would ship out Gagner need to give their head a shake. Give this kid at least 3 more years to break the 55 point barrier before labelling him as a mediocre player or marginal second liner. He is a MAJOR building block for the future and will be a legitimate first line centre in 2-4 years (flirting with All-Star).

The same goes for MPS and eberle: temper your expectations.

This team has to do three things in the next couple of years:

1. Lose
2. Shed/eject veterans: expiring contracts or waivers
3. Jettison half the kids, pick the winners: Brule, Gagner, Smid, out: Gilbert, Cogliano, Nilsson.

Do you see a trend here? Capspace, capspace, capspace, realism and draft picks.
While option #1 isn't essential for the plan to go ahead, it is probably inevitable, unless this kids coming in show they truly are special. I just want this team to be different and show some signs of life. Watching this team play the last two years has been truly uninspiring.

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01-11-2010, 11:49 PM
  #224
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unless this kids coming in show they truly are special.
I feel like the Oilers have spent a lot of years hoping that the kids coming in will be something special. It's never really worked out for the Oilers - I don't really see how the current batch is all that much better than in previous years.

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01-12-2010, 09:15 AM
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saskyoil View Post
Anything can happen in the next 40 games: a 4 game win streak could put us drafting 6th in short order. Pegging our hopes on "Hall or nothing" is going to result in a big dissapointment. IMO we are just as likely to draft 5th as we are 2nd, thus we should be talking about prospects throughout the spectrum.

The people who would ship out Gagner need to give their head a shake. Give this kid at least 3 more years to break the 55 point barrier before labelling him as a mediocre player or marginal second liner. He is a MAJOR building block for the future and will be a legitimate first line centre in 2-4 years (flirting with All-Star).

The same goes for MPS and eberle: temper your expectations.

This team has to do three things in the next couple of years:

1. Lose
2. Shed/eject veterans: expiring contracts or waivers
3. Jettison half the kids, pick the winners: Brule, Gagner, Smid, out: Gilbert, Cogliano, Nilsson.

Do you see a trend here? Capspace, capspace, capspace, realism and draft picks.
Ditto!

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