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Ilya Kovalchuk (Rumor Update: 01/02/10) Post #432

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Old
01-12-2010, 11:18 AM
  #926
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Originally Posted by IslesDude View Post
Doesn't Kovalchuk's agent have a history of being very tough to deal with? I've heard that he is all about the money and nothing else. Supposedly he milks teams for everything he can... even moreso than other agents. If so he'll definitely be going for more than a 7.5 hit. Don't forget that Kovalchuk held out for more money in 05... And this is when Atlanta was considered a promising team. Kovalchuk just doesn't seem like the kind of guy who will take one for the team. FA is all about cashing in after all. I'm sure someone would be fine giving him 9-10 million yearly.
i hear you...but...ovechkin's hit is 9.5 and crosby's is 8.7. kovalchuk won't be getting more than that from anyone. the contenders can't fit it under the cap and the cellar dwellers can't afford it.

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01-12-2010, 01:22 PM
  #927
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Originally Posted by LetsGoBlueshirts View Post
Really nice/vanilla way of thinking about things. But let me ask you this, do you want more money at your job? I know I do. What if your job said if you moved to Russia (where you grew up), your salary would double? You'd have to at least think about it.

When it comes down to it, how can you ever have too much money?
Admittedly, I don't think of money the same as most people for reasons that are so far from hockey that its not worth getting into. I guess a better way to illustrate my point would be this: Ask a cup winner how much money they would trade holding up the cup for. I've only spent any significant time with one cup winner (Graves) in my life and it was a few days after the fact but he seemed a lot happier than the other, maybe slightly richer, millionaires I've met.

I think the difference between this situation and your hypothetical work situation is that the NHL is far and away more prestigious than the KHL, and I don't think thats based on any ethnocentrism as much as the fact that the level of competition seems to be much higher. So, its not only a matter of moving and making more money, but also giving up any hope of reaching the highest plateau of success in your field in winning a Stanley Cup and this guy clearly has the talent to do that.

With all this talk of money and cups, what about the guys personal performance? Since entering the league he's been on a line that is really loaded I'd say once in 05 -06 and he was third in the league in goals and had 98 points. Who knows what he's capable of now playing with guys like Toews and Kane or Prospal and Gaborik? (not comparing the pairs, per se, just throwing out some talented C- RW combos that could benefit from a LW like this guy) Its nice to be rich and its nice to win cups but its also great to put up big points, break records and establish yourself as one of the best ever. Signing with a team who can afford to give him an astronomical amount of money a year is never going to help that cause.

In conclusion, he should sign a reasonable contract with the rangers

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01-12-2010, 01:45 PM
  #928
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As much as I think Ilya would be a huge offensive addition to the team - I think signing him will make it impossible in the long run to keep at least one integral piece of whatever young core we're building. With the salary cap system, you have no way of being competitive every year if you are giving big contracts.

If you sign Ilya, then you're ultimately going to have to say goodbye in two or three years to a player like a Staal or a Del Zotto, etc. The Rangers would be far better served to dump Drury and Redden's salary (and now Kotalik's) and start using bits of it to build and hold onto the younger players as they head into their prime. When you have cap flexibility you can keep and develop your young talent and then reap the rewards - the Sabres, Avs, Kings are all great examples of this.

The rangers had it right, right after the strike when they only signed role playing vets to smaller, short term contracts. That was the right way to grow towards the future while remainig competitive.

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01-12-2010, 01:53 PM
  #929
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Originally Posted by TheHotRock View Post
i hear you...but...ovechkin's hit is 9.5 and crosby's is 8.7. kovalchuk won't be getting more than that from anyone. the contenders can't fit it under the cap and the cellar dwellers can't afford it.
I think he'll be right around there...and if he cant find an offer in the NHL that suits his needs, he'll bolt for the KHL. It'd be a real travesty if the NHL loses an elite player in his prime to that league.

If we can clear space, and hes an UFA come July 1st, the Rangers should throw everything at him.

10 years/90 million.

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01-12-2010, 02:28 PM
  #930
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
If we can clear space, and hes an UFA come July 1st, the Rangers should throw everything at him.

10 years/90 million.
Unfortunately we cannot clear the contracts (TWO of Drury/Redden/Rozsival) that need to come off the books to make this happen so it's just a pipe dream at this point... Trying to clear the space without moving 2 of those 3 big contracts will just jeopardize contract negotiations for pending RFA's (Staal, etc).

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01-12-2010, 02:30 PM
  #931
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Unfortunately we cannot clear the contracts (TWO of Drury/Redden/Rozsival) that need to come off the books to make this happen so it's just a pipe dream at this point... Trying to clear the space without moving 2 of those 3 big contracts will just jeopardize contract negotiations for pending RFA's (Staal, etc).
I don't see not being able to move Redden and Roszival as a problem. Buyout Redden and trading Roszival is very realistic.

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01-12-2010, 02:31 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
I don't see not being able to move Redden and Roszival as a problem. Buyout Redden and trading Roszival is very realistic.
I think they would just put him in the minors before they acutally bought him out.

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01-12-2010, 02:46 PM
  #933
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I don't see not being able to move Redden and Roszival as a problem. Buyout Redden and trading Roszival is very realistic.
Buying out Redden is a bad option... We would incur significant cap hits for the next 8 years....

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01-12-2010, 03:22 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
I couldnt' disagree more, if the only option to sign Kovalchuk is at a caphit more than $7mil per then he can screw off. If we sign him to a frontloaded long term deal to reduce the cap hit then so be it, but I do not think investing in a player with more than a $7mil per caphit is the right move.

Regardless of Kovalchuk signing here or not there is no way Redden is on this team next year IMO. I'm guessing he's bought out this off-season, and we'll just deal with the hit (the worst years of it still save us about $2mil off the cap compared to what it would be with him on the team).

I can see Roszival starting the year with us next season, but there's no way he finishes it with us unless he's spectacular and I don't think it's that farfetched that he gets moved this off-season. Same goes for Girardi this off-season.
I said the same thing recently until it was posted recently in this thread that Slats has told the media that he doesn't like those types of contracts and believes that it is a cheap way to beat the salary cap.

I really hope Sather has enough balls to take advantage of the situation and throw one of those deals at him.

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01-12-2010, 04:12 PM
  #935
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He's a millionaire now. Literally. A millionaire. You talk like he's on the edge and his future is uncertain. No one has to look out for him EVER. If I already had millions of dollars in the bank, yeah, I think I'd be loyal instead of taking money. What's more money at that point? More to stress you out, more to waste on crappy consumer goods. The value of money is dependent on how much of it you already have and other things no doubt, but how much you have plays a huge role in it.

Hossa is a moron. Jumping from seeming contender to contender every year isn't going to get you a cup. You never let a team build around you and pair people with you or sign players that compliment you. There's a huge difference between skipping town every year to chase the cup and trying to sign with a team that has a bright future.

His family lineage will be set for generations anyway...being rich makes you money. You'd have to try to lose your financial security when you've been making 5 million + dollars a year for the past half of a decade. We shouldn't pass judgement because we don't understand...but you're passing judgement saying take the money? Seems a little sketchy to me in terms of logic.

Ilya IS paid and will be guaranteed to make many hundreds of times what most people in this world make for doing, lets face it, more grueling work than working out all day every day and taking charter flights around the country to play a game that they love.

He should go for a cup. Immortalize himself in hockey history. There's a lot of rich people in this world and he's already one of them whether he gets an extra 40 million or not. He'd be a greedy idiot to take the extra money at the expense of winning. If you want to be rich, be an industrialist. If you want to win a stanley cup, play hockey. This game isn't a game of who has the most money, its a game of being the best at what you do.
I like this post, but you're wrong. There is difference between Money and Capital. Money is in the bank. Capital is the money invested. Being a millionaire is nice for a regular on this board, but you need to have enough capital to buy a team or portion of it and become an owner. A capitalist. Messier would have loved it, Gretzky failed at it. Lemeux succeeded in it. Therefore, assuming the life doesn't end after the end of the career, one should make the most out of possible earnings. To be able to continue with hockey,but on own terms with freedom.
SC allows to make more money. That is not as simple, but close enough.

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01-12-2010, 05:01 PM
  #936
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
He's a millionaire now. Literally. A millionaire. You talk like he's on the edge and his future is uncertain. No one has to look out for him EVER. If I already had millions of dollars in the bank, yeah, I think I'd be loyal instead of taking money. What's more money at that point? More to stress you out, more to waste on crappy consumer goods. The value of money is dependent on how much of it you already have and other things no doubt, but how much you have plays a huge role in it.
Who are you to say how much money is too much for any one particular person? Who cares if he has $5 billion liquid sitting in the bank and could never spend it all in his lifetime? If someone is going to offer you a max contract, no one should criticize him for it, it's his right. Although you may act as if you're the .00001% of people who would turn down and extra $40M, I believe facing the same scenario you would sign on the dotted line.

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Hossa is a moron. Jumping from seeming contender to contender every year isn't going to get you a cup. You never let a team build around you and pair people with you or sign players that compliment you. There's a huge difference between skipping town every year to chase the cup and trying to sign with a team that has a bright future.
95% of all professional athletes are mercenaries, hopping from team to team in search of money and championships.

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His family lineage will be set for generations anyway...
You're fully knowledgeable of his personal finances? His investments? His plans for his future earnings?

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being rich makes you money. You'd have to try to lose your financial security when you've been making 5 million + dollars a year for the past half of a decade. We shouldn't pass judgement because we don't understand...but you're passing judgement saying take the money? Seems a little sketchy to me in terms of logic.
Tell that to the people who have lost their personal savings, portfolios, pensions, 401k's and all of Bernie Madoff's clients. I'm actually not passing judgment when it's well publicized that Ilya is seeking a 10yr/100M contract and I support his choice.

Quote:
Ilya IS paid and will be guaranteed to make many hundreds of times what most people in this world make for doing, lets face it, more grueling work than working out all day every day and taking charter flights around the country to play a game that they love.

He should go for a cup. Immortalize himself in hockey history. There's a lot of rich people in this world and he's already one of them whether he gets an extra 40 million or not. He'd be a greedy idiot to take the extra money at the expense of winning. If you want to be rich, be an industrialist. If you want to win a stanley cup, play hockey. This game isn't a game of who has the most money, its a game of being the best at what you do.
Talk about passing judgment. Its no guarantee wherever he goes that he'll hoist the cup one day. Dino Cicarelli, Mike Gartner, Pavel Bure, Cam Neely, Pat Lafontaine, all great players, no Stanley Cups.

You shouldn't pass judgment upon any of his reasoning for wanting a max contract. Supply and demand is apart of our country's foundation and if his skills/assets can afford him the contract of a lifetime, something he's worked day in and day out for, then who are you to criticize his prerogative?

You're post is full of hypocrisy.

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01-12-2010, 05:22 PM
  #937
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Buying out Redden is a bad option... We would incur significant cap hits for the next 8 years....
But we'd save anywhere from 2-3 million compared to having him on the cap... Remember, cap hit never changes, what the player gets paid from the team does.

If we can save an upwards of 3 million a year by buying him out, that's enough money for one of our young players like Anisimov, Stepan, Grachev, Del Zotto, etc... or if we need to go outside the organization and break the bank, that could be a top-6 forward or top-4 defender.

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01-12-2010, 05:31 PM
  #938
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But we'd save anywhere from 2-3 million compared to having him on the cap... Remember, cap hit never changes, what the player gets paid from the team does.

If we can save an upwards of 3 million a year by buying him out, that's enough money for one of our young players like Anisimov, Stepan, Grachev, Del Zotto, etc... or if we need to go outside the organization and break the bank, that could be a top-6 forward or top-4 defender.
and we'd save the full 6.5 million by sticking him in the minors.

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01-12-2010, 05:36 PM
  #939
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Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
But we'd save anywhere from 2-3 million compared to having him on the cap... Remember, cap hit never changes, what the player gets paid from the team does.

If we can save an upwards of 3 million a year by buying him out, that's enough money for one of our young players like Anisimov, Stepan, Grachev, Del Zotto, etc... or if we need to go outside the organization and break the bank, that could be a top-6 forward or top-4 defender.
But we'd have to replace Redden, so it really would be just something around 2 million we'd save per year. And for that we carry the extra 3 million cap hit for 4 more years than the original contract.
If we get rid of Redden it has to be him going to Hartford, or a team stupid enough to take him.

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01-12-2010, 05:42 PM
  #940
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I think they would just put him in the minors before they acutally bought him out.
You don't bury a player that can still play at an NHL level in the minors for what will be the last 4 years of his professional career if that was what we chose. It's a horrible smear.

We're just going to have to eat the buyout hit. It's $4mil for 2 years at it's worse (and years Redden would be on the team anyway) then a $1.9mil hit the rest of hte years we're paying it off. It sucks, but it's the best option IMO if you want to talk realistic options.

Redden was pissed about being a healthy scratch for one game. There's no way in hell he's ok with the Rangers burying him in the minors, even if he's given permission to go play in another league (which he won't do...he's got a family and kids, he's not going overseas to play in the SEL or the KHL.), he's going to want to be in the NHL.

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01-12-2010, 05:43 PM
  #941
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Buying out Redden is a bad option... We would incur significant cap hits for the next 8 years....
At some point or another there needs to be some sort of accountability check for the front office. They made a mistake with Redden, there's no GOOD option. A buyout is the most realistic at this point.

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01-12-2010, 05:45 PM
  #942
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
You don't bury a player that can still play at an NHL level in the minors for what will be the last 4 years of his professional career if that was what we chose. It's a horrible smear.

We're just going to have to eat the buyout hit. It's $4mil for 2 years at it's worse (and years Redden would be on the team anyway) then a $1.9mil hit the rest of hte years we're paying it off. It sucks, but it's the best option IMO if you want to talk realistic options.

Redden was pissed about being a healthy scratch for one game. There's no way in hell he's ok with the Rangers burying him in the minors, even if he's given permission to go play in another league (which he won't do...he's got a family and kids, he's not going overseas to play in the SEL or the KHL.), he's going to want to be in the NHL.
If that's the case then they can probably use it to make him waive the no trade clause (if we found a team dumb enough to take him...).

"Either waive the no-trade or you're playing in the minors"

Redden sure doesnt play like he wants to be in the NHL. The effort level isn't there.

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01-12-2010, 07:52 PM
  #943
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http://espn.go.com/nhl/notebook/_/pa...posals-atlanta

I assume these proposals are for Kovy as a rental but the value of the proposed packages are all over the place that some of them have to be assuming Kovy is signed. Even though some are good, it makes me feel like Bucci just threw darts which leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If Eric Staal's contract negates a Carolina proposal, I guess Gaborik + Drury means Bucci will pass on the Rangers.

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01-12-2010, 08:33 PM
  #944
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Kovalchuk + Gaborik = win. Don't even need real center.

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01-12-2010, 08:45 PM
  #945
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Kovalchuk + Gaborik = win. Don't even need real center.
Resign Prospal to center Gaborik (he's like nylander for Jagr)
Anisomv centers Kovalchuk....
Drury on the third line..bamn

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01-12-2010, 08:55 PM
  #946
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Who are you to say how much money is too much for any one particular person? Who cares if he has $5 billion liquid sitting in the bank and could never spend it all in his lifetime? If someone is going to offer you a max contract, no one should criticize him for it, it's his right. Although you may act as if you're the .00001% of people who would turn down and extra $40M, I believe facing the same scenario you would sign on the dotted line.



95% of all professional athletes are mercenaries, hopping from team to team in search of money and championships.


You're fully knowledgeable of his personal finances? His investments? His plans for his future earnings?



Tell that to the people who have lost their personal savings, portfolios, pensions, 401k's and all of Bernie Madoff's clients. I'm actually not passing judgment when it's well publicized that Ilya is seeking a 10yr/100M contract and I support his choice.



Talk about passing judgment. Its no guarantee wherever he goes that he'll hoist the cup one day. Dino Cicarelli, Mike Gartner, Pavel Bure, Cam Neely, Pat Lafontaine, all great players, no Stanley Cups.

You shouldn't pass judgment upon any of his reasoning for wanting a max contract. Supply and demand is apart of our country's foundation and if his skills/assets can afford him the contract of a lifetime, something he's worked day in and day out for, then who are you to criticize his prerogative?

You're post is full of hypocrisy.
We're on this forum to pass judgement on these issues. I never said that I wasn't passing judgement on the situation, I said that you said you weren't yet you were by saying you agree with him on $100M. I absolutely am and I don't think its wrong for you or me to, thats the point of this thread, to weigh in your opinion and state your reasoning for it. Am I knowledgeable in his finances? I know he's been making ~5 million dollars a year for 5 years. I know that he's a millionaire many times over and that's all I'm asserting. I'm a rangers fan on an internet forum, I'll pass judgement on Ilya all day but in the end its his decision and his skills. My judgement is nothing more than an opinion, I realize that. As far as Madoff and losing wealth is concerned, this is about hockey. I could write you a term paper about why it was obvious he was running a ponzi scheme, but thats not relevant here.

95%, huh? I'd like to see the citation for that except I already know that one doesn't exist because thats an absurd statistic.

Yeah, I think its stupid to take a ton of money and cripple the team that you're on and honestly I don't care one iota if you or Ilya agree with me or if my judgement on his decision would hurt his little feelings because its my opinion and he's the one with the world class hockey skills, not me. He can do what he wants and I can think what I want about it, so can you. I know that a cup is never guaranteed, but I also know that taking up a fifth of your teams cap by yourself is more likely to cripple your team than help it, especially when we're talking ten years.

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01-12-2010, 09:10 PM
  #947
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Unfortunately we cannot clear the contracts (TWO of Drury/Redden/Rozsival) that need to come off the books to make this happen so it's just a pipe dream at this point... Trying to clear the space without moving 2 of those 3 big contracts will just jeopardize contract negotiations for pending RFA's (Staal, etc).
Sure you can. As long as you can trade Rosival for whatever draft pick you can get, then put Redden in the minors (forever). Bring up 2 young cheap D-Men to fill their spots. 2 years later Drury is off the books and maybe you can dump/trade Kotalik and bring in a good player after 1 more year.

I don't want to hear this crap about scaring away potential free agents either because of "the treatment of Redden". Please.. Hockey free agents are no different than anyone else. Offer a guy the most money & years and he'll sign with your team.

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01-12-2010, 09:39 PM
  #948
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We're on this forum to pass judgement on these issues.
Maybe you're, but, I'm certainly not. I'm here to discuss the pertinent issues and state my opinion. Not pass judgment on a player's rights to seek a contract for whatever they deem they're worthy of. I'm not a fan that harbors ill will towards anyone associated with the NHL or any sport for that matter. What they do with their lives is their business, and, if the money's there, take it if you want it. No one else is going to look out for you and yours.

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I never said that I wasn't passing judgement on the situation, I said that you said you weren't yet you were by saying you agree with him on $100M. I absolutely am and I don't think its wrong for you or me to, thats the point of this thread, to weigh in your opinion and state your reasoning for it. Am I knowledgeable in his finances? I know he's been making ~5 million dollars a year for 5 years. I know that he's a millionaire many times over and that's all I'm asserting.
That's a awful assumption. Do you know how many professional athletes are in terrible financial situations? Johnny Damon just completed a $52M contract and is near broke. Jose Canseco had his house foreclosed on. So again, you're not knowledgeable of the man's finances. You know his annual salary, but you know nothing of his financial situation. These people pay off family members debts, take out loans from before they reach the NHL, have portfolios that ust took major hits, establish charities using their own capital that they're never reimbursed for, open multiple businesses, some that fail some that succeed. You know absolutely nothing about any athletes financial situations, other than their yearly salary, these aren't publicly traded companies with financial reports.

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I'm a rangers fan on an internet forum, I'll pass judgement on Ilya all day but in the end its his decision and his skills. My judgement is nothing more than an opinion, I realize that.
Passing judgment and offering an opinion are far from the same thing.

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As far as Madoff and losing wealth is concerned, this is about hockey. I could write you a term paper about why it was obvious he was running a ponzi scheme, but thats not relevant here.
You and every other Business major undergraduate in heinsight. I didn't see you or anyone else who invested their millions with him taking action before it all came to light.

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95%, huh? I'd like to see the citation for that except I already know that one doesn't exist because thats an absurd statistic.
First off, it's not a statistic, I didn't provide a source, obviously. It's a number off the top of my head to prove that loyalty is few and far between in professional sports these days because it's a two way street. Franchises all too often don't care about players and vise versa. There aren't too many Derek Jeter's these days.

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Yeah, I think its stupid to take a ton of money and cripple the team that you're on and honestly I don't care one iota if you or Ilya agree with me or if my judgement on his decision would hurt his little feelings because its my opinion and he's the one with the world class hockey skills, not me. He can do what he wants and I can think what I want about it, so can you. I know that a cup is never guaranteed, but I also know that taking up a fifth of your teams cap by yourself is more likely to cripple your team than help it, especially when we're talking ten years.
That's fair. I can't argue with that. It could potentially handicap a team in a salary cap world. But calling it stupid comes off unintelligible and crass. There are other ways to communicate that by taking a max contract it could be detrimental.

People point to Atlanta and say he can't do it by himself and they're right. He's had awful goal tending and consistently plays on a team that refuses to spend to the cap. In fact, he's the only reason they're above the salary floor. If the Thrashers gave him a max contract today, they'd still have ~3.5M in cap space on a team that's four points from a playoff spot. I don't see how that set's his team back, in the slightest.

My opinion is that if Ilya wants to get paid, get paid. It's not anyone's place to say one person has enough of anything they desire, especially money.

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01-12-2010, 10:00 PM
  #949
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Originally Posted by D713B View Post
First off, it's not a statistic, I didn't provide a source, obviously. It's a number off the top of my head to prove that loyalty is few and far between in professional sports these days because it's a two way street. Franchises all too often don't care about players and vise versa. There aren't too many Derek Jeter's these days.
Since you were being precise before this, I wanted to say that using a number off the top of your head isn't proof of anything, it is a basis for your supposition. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is much more assumption than proof.

Otherwise, I tend to agree with you, except on one point. I think Kovalchuk's desire for $10+ million is actually stupid; not because he (or anyone else) doesn't "deserve" to make that much money, or has some sort of responsibility to ask for less, but because if he wants to play for a winning franchise, the more money he asks for, the more difficult it will be to put a winning team together around him.

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01-12-2010, 10:13 PM
  #950
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Originally Posted by Khelvan View Post
Since you were being precise before this, I wanted to say that using a number off the top of your head isn't proof of anything, it is a basis for your supposition. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is much more assumption than proof.
Yeah, it's totally a fabricated number. It was just to make light of the idea that mutual loyalty between franchises and players is minimal, at best.

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Otherwise, I tend to agree with you, except on one point. I think Kovalchuk's desire for $10+ million is actually stupid; not because he (or anyone else) doesn't "deserve" to make that much money, or has some sort of responsibility to ask for less, but because if he wants to play for a winning franchise, the more money he asks for, the more difficult it will be to put a winning team together around him.
Would it really? They're four points from a playoff spot and giving Kovy a max contract now still leaves ~$3.5 in cap space. Bogosian is only going to get better, so is Kane. If Kari Lehtonen wasn't made of porcelain and could play 60-70 games a year you have a perennial play off team. Shedding Lehtonen and Hedberg this off-season as UFA's clears another $4M to bring in a legit goal tender. They won't need Kubina at his $5M cap hit with Bogosian taking more responsibility freeing up another $1.5M. Slava Kozlov's (3.6) dead weight will be gone too.

Those are all what if's but I think it's unfounded to believe Atlanta couldn't couldn't contend next year if they spent to the cap and gave Kovy a max contract. Don't forget the cap is likely to increase $1M.

I feel like I'm rambling because I need to get some sleep right now. My point boils down to, it's possible for Kovy to get a max contract and play for a competitive team.

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