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Flyers comments on Burrows/Auger incident.

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Old
01-13-2010, 09:29 AM
  #26
CharlieGirl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
A penalty is a penalty....call it.
I agree Jester. If it's a penalty in the first period of the first game of the year, it should still be a penalty in the 3rd period or OT of the Stanley Cup Finals.

This is where the NFL excels over the NHL.

There is a mentality that the refs shouldn't decide a game. But if they're not calling penalties, they do have a hand in deciding the winner of the game.

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01-13-2010, 09:38 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl View Post
I agree Jester. If it's a penalty in the first period of the first game of the year, it should still be a penalty in the 3rd period or OT of the Stanley Cup Finals.

This is where the NFL excels over the NHL.

There is a mentality that the refs shouldn't decide a game. But if they're not calling penalties, they do have a hand in deciding the winner of the game.
I do disagree with this, I mean, if Richards holds somebody for 2 seconds in the corner in the offensive zone against the Sharks in OT of Game 7 and the Sharks come away with the puck anyways and outlet, do you really want that called?

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01-13-2010, 09:47 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I do disagree with this, I mean, if Richards holds somebody for 2 seconds in the corner in the offensive zone against the Sharks in OT of Game 7 and the Sharks come away with the puck anyways and outlet, do you really want that called?
No, I'm a fan of the Flyers.

But if they're consistently calling penalties when they're penalties...then you don't have anything to complain about. Not to mention, if they're consistently calling penalties when they're penalties...Richards probably is more careful about holding in the first place.

The problem now is that if you're watching an OT game it reaches a point where you know the refs are going to randomly call something at some point...and then they're going to give a PP to the other team. Never mind they've let X penalties of the same type slide prior to then.

That fair?

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01-13-2010, 09:52 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Your first point about the physical demands of the job is a good one, it is pretty tough for those guys.

But since the NHL is much more of a grind, the NHL needs to take necessary steps such as paying their officials more and constantly evaluating and grading them. One of the things I do like about the NFL is that they'll come out and admit when they've made a mistake, something you'd never catch the NHL doing in 1,000 years.
It's more than just a matter of pay. The travel alone is going to weed out guys (similar problem in NBA, and MLB). There's a reason NFL officials are the best, it's because outside of pay it's the most appealing league to work in travel-wise.

Quote:
I believe you mentioned in another post that officials in the NFL have to view footage of the calls they messed up, I'd be shocked if the NHL had any kind of equivalent system. The NHL Office of Officiating or whatever it is essentially exists to protect the officials, not to grade them or to try to improve them.
I think the NHL officiating improved in consistency notably the first year out of the lockout, but I also think it's degraded since then. I really think they need to look at creating a system for grading officials, and deal with it publicly. If the officials don't like getting called out for their mistakes...tough, be accountable.

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That Giroux slash (which is not an automatic penalty if the stick breaks) was just ludicrous for that reason. The guy was skating through the neutral zone, Giroux tapped him, his stick broke, no real effect on the play. Yet the refs essentially handed the Pens the game on a platter for it. That's not an automatic call as evidenced earlier this year against the Pens when the same thing happened to Carter in the neutral zone with the official 10 feet away, they just decided to make it in that instance.

Just terrible.
That rule is terrible. You are allowed to stick check a guy, and you need to do that with some force. You should not be penalized because of a compromised stick, or because the guy is savvy enough to drop his stick.

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01-13-2010, 09:54 AM
  #30
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For those who didn't see it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9k6n7MuLag&NR=1

I'm still trying to figure out where the penalty is. Incidental contact happened twice. If it was the contact right off the draw, the ref didn't put his arm up immediately, it was like he waited and then saw the name on the back of the jersey. If it was the slight contact in front of the net, even worse.

I read somewhere that Auger has been a ref since 2000 and has only been involved in 10 playoff games. Why is he still in the league?

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01-13-2010, 10:14 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I do disagree with this, I mean, if Richards holds somebody for 2 seconds in the corner in the offensive zone against the Sharks in OT of Game 7 and the Sharks come away with the puck anyways and outlet, do you really want that called?
If it's a call they've made all year, then yes I do. And Richie should know better, if they've called it all season long.

And if it's a call they've made all year, isn't it unfair to the Sharks not to call it?

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01-13-2010, 10:24 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl View Post
If it's a call they've made all year, then yes I do. And Richie should know better, if they've called it all season long.

And if it's a call they've made all year, isn't it unfair to the Sharks not to call it?
This is the point that people always gloss over when advocating the "let 'em play" approach. The ref is absolutely making a decision...a decision that impacts the course of the game. Again, back to Game 7 against the Caps...they took down 2 guys breaking out of the defensive zone (so, not in an explicit scoring area) before they got a call on 'em. Ref could have easily let the second one go...and if the Caps had then scored, would we not have a right to complain (two odd-man rushes wiped out by non-call penalties) about the officiating?

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01-13-2010, 10:33 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No, I'm a fan of the Flyers.

But if they're consistently calling penalties when they're penalties...then you don't have anything to complain about. Not to mention, if they're consistently calling penalties when they're penalties...Richards probably is more careful about holding in the first place.

The problem now is that if you're watching an OT game it reaches a point where you know the refs are going to randomly call something at some point...and then they're going to give a PP to the other team. Never mind they've let X penalties of the same type slide prior to then.

That fair?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl View Post
If it's a call they've made all year, then yes I do. And Richie should know better, if they've called it all season long.

And if it's a call they've made all year, isn't it unfair to the Sharks not to call it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
This is the point that people always gloss over when advocating the "let 'em play" approach. The ref is absolutely making a decision...a decision that impacts the course of the game. Again, back to Game 7 against the Caps...they took down 2 guys breaking out of the defensive zone (so, not in an explicit scoring area) before they got a call on 'em. Ref could have easily let the second one go...and if the Caps had then scored, would we not have a right to complain (two odd-man rushes wiped out by non-call penalties) about the officiating?
I'll try to deal with these 3 at once since they're all essentially on the same subject.

In my opinion, if a penalty prevents or leads to a clear scoring chance in OT, it has to be called. For example on the RJ penalty, Caps d-men prevented two 2 on 1s in 2 minutes, you need to call something there. The problem in my opinion is that a lot of OT penalties are very ticky-tacky and have no real effect on the play. As Jester said, the way OT goes now, once you get to the 2nd or 3rd period of OT, you know that ticky-tack calls are coming, most likely one for each team or in last year's case, 2 for the same team.

If it's a legit penalty that directly relates to a scoring chance, then by all means call it, but a lot of these calls seem to be "slashing" or "hooking" where the penalty is marginal and has no effect on the play and that's what I have a problem with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
It's more than just a matter of pay. The travel alone is going to weed out guys (similar problem in NBA, and MLB). There's a reason NFL officials are the best, it's because outside of pay it's the most appealing league to work in travel-wise.
Yeah, but the NHL is recruiting guys from the AHL and junior (hopefully not from NCAA), guys who probably have to travel a fair deal anyways, so they're recruiting the best of what there is. I do think they can and should try to make the job more appealing, but I think there's a decent talent pool out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
I think the NHL officiating improved in consistency notably the first year out of the lockout, but I also think it's degraded since then. I really think they need to look at creating a system for grading officials, and deal with it publicly. If the officials don't like getting called out for their mistakes...tough, be accountable.
Exactly, you know the NHL is going to sweep this Auger thing under the rug and if Burrows had gone to his GM, it's likely we never would have heard about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
That rule is terrible. You are allowed to stick check a guy, and you need to do that with some force. You should not be penalized because of a compromised stick, or because the guy is savvy enough to drop his stick.
No arguments there and it's not even really a rule, it's just something the NHL uses as justification for ticky-tack slashes that get called, but sometimes they don't bother to enforce it, the whole policy regarding slashing is just a joke.

Funny how often "joke" and "NHL" come up in the same sentence.

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01-13-2010, 10:35 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Eh, there's always going to be some variance in calls from official to official, but you're not giving enough attention to the institutionalized system in the NFL. Each game in the NFL gets broken down and graded for the officials. If they get dinged for screwing up calls, that hurts their chance of officiating big games, and working the playoffs (money). Even an experienced NFL official like Ed Hochuli's crew missed the playoffs because of botched calls a year ago.
Just curious, how long has this system been in effect? Did Bill Leavy/ Superbowl XL have anything to do with it?

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01-13-2010, 10:38 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
What a joke, you think the NFL has these types of problems?
If you mean problems with officials...quite frankly, yes.

I think you see a little bit of it in all professional sports.

However, I've always wanted to believe that it was present in the NFL and NHL to a much lesser extent.

I'd much rather believe that everything if fair and balanced, naive as it may be. That's why I hate when stories like this break.

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01-13-2010, 10:43 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by six sigma View Post
Just curious, how long has this system been in effect? Did Bill Leavy/ Superbowl XL have anything to do with it?
I think it's been around, but I believe the incident that really ramped it up was that Jets game that had a butchered call on the goal line (I want to say ~8 years ago, as I was in college at the time).

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01-13-2010, 10:46 AM
  #37
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I call two minutes for diving.


Last edited by HoverCarle*: 01-13-2010 at 12:04 PM.
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Old
01-13-2010, 10:47 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I'll try to deal with these 3 at once since they're all essentially on the same subject.

In my opinion, if a penalty prevents or leads to a clear scoring chance in OT, it has to be called. For example on the RJ penalty, Caps d-men prevented two 2 on 1s in 2 minutes, you need to call something there. The problem in my opinion is that a lot of OT penalties are very ticky-tacky and have no real effect on the play. As Jester said, the way OT goes now, once you get to the 2nd or 3rd period of OT, you know that ticky-tack calls are coming, most likely one for each team or in last year's case, 2 for the same team.

If it's a legit penalty that directly relates to a scoring chance, then by all means call it, but a lot of these calls seem to be "slashing" or "hooking" where the penalty is marginal and has no effect on the play and that's what I have a problem with.
Yes, but this entire philosophy relies on your ability to predict the future. Scoring opportunities in the NHL develop at such speed that a fairly innocuous play along the wall may very well nix what would have been a glorious chance at the net. The very point is that it does have an effect on the play (outside of the slashing call, which is a problem with the rule more than the calls made on it)...if you're interfering with a guy...you're interfering with him going to the net, or getting open for a pass.

They're the rules...they shouldn't change just because the letters on the scoreboard change.

Go back to the Caps game. The Caps have a legit gripe. Not two minutes before the officials had let them do that very same thing...and NOW it's a penalty. If they'd called the first, they have no complaint...by not calling the first they set a precedent, and then immediately broke that precedent.

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01-13-2010, 10:52 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Kambo View Post
I call two minutes for diving.
Lmfao I loved the crowd reaction so much.

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01-13-2010, 11:05 AM
  #40
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Lmfao I loved the crowd reaction so much.
I thought the crowd reaction was callow, and somewhat embarrassing.

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01-13-2010, 11:11 AM
  #41
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Eklund (who I won't link here for obvious reasons) feels the NHL is right for doing nothing. Kind of ironic, he applauds them doing NOTHING, which is essentially what Eklund does.

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01-13-2010, 11:16 AM
  #42
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Gregson's elbowing call against LeClair. Perfectly reasonable in October. A disgusting travesty in April.

And I'd not hold up the NFL as models of good officiating. Heaven knows it is a very verty difficult job, but the latitude in things like Holding and Illegal Contact is immense and few either way can totally change a game.

Classic:

And then there's this:

Quote:
Hey, ump. How about a warning?

Sure. Watch out you don't get killed.

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01-13-2010, 11:27 AM
  #43
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Eklund (who I won't link here for obvious reasons) feels the NHL is right for doing nothing. Kind of ironic, he applauds them doing NOTHING, which is essentially what Eklund does.
In fairness to the NHL, they're in a pretty impossible position. Burrows says Auger said X and then made phantom calls on him in a game. Auger says he didn't say X and thought they were legit calls. Even if the calls are brutal, that doesn't mean anything untoward took place at an integrity level (the calls are obviously questionable). So, even if the NHL guys are looking at this and thinking, "WTF?" after the calls...what real evidence do they have?

All that being said...I think people are being naive if they believe this won't hang over Auger's head to a certain extent. Meltzer's comments are interesting, and I know I've long viewed Auger as being a ****ty ref.

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01-13-2010, 11:31 AM
  #44
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Coaches in the NHL should have an extra time-out for Challenges and have a red flag they can throw on the ice to make said challenges.

Also, if a goal goes to review, Toronto (which should have EVERY angle available to them anyway) has the final say, and should make the decision for the refs. Even if it holds a game up. I mean, a goal in hockey is WAY more important then a catch in football, but they hold the game for that. Take a TV timeout or something.

The NHL is stupid sometimes.

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01-13-2010, 11:49 AM
  #45
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I can't understand why the 2 ref system can't work like the NFL game. The ref 5 feet from the play doesn't make a call, then the ref 100 feet away calls it and it stands. Why can't the closer ref talk to the other ref and explain why it wasn't a penalty from 5 feet away. Say "there was no penalty" and drop the puck at center ice. How hard would that be? They were so afraid of missing penalties, so they added the 2nd ref, but they had no cares about getting the calls right. The fact that they have 2 officials working basically independent of each other is ludicrous.

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01-13-2010, 11:51 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
I thought the crowd reaction was callow, and somewhat embarrassing.
I dont want to open that can of worms again, but that penalty he called with Carcillo was retarded, he deserved it.

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01-13-2010, 12:02 PM
  #47
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I can't understand why the 2 ref system can't work like the NFL game. The ref 5 feet from the play doesn't make a call, then the ref 100 feet away calls it and it stands. Why can't the closer ref talk to the other ref and explain why it wasn't a penalty from 5 feet away. Say "there was no penalty" and drop the puck at center ice. How hard would that be? They were so afraid of missing penalties, so they added the 2nd ref, but they had no cares about getting the calls right. The fact that they have 2 officials working basically independent of each other is ludicrous.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always under the understanding that the closer ref watches the puck and the farther one watches the play. Usually the closer ref will call a penalty if it happens in his line of sight when watching the puck. Just saying. Depending on the closer ref's positioning, it may be harder than you think.

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01-13-2010, 12:05 PM
  #48
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NHL needs a challenge like the NFL aswell. Would have help us for the bruins too many men for the GWG in the winter classic

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01-13-2010, 12:19 PM
  #49
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MLB umpires are notorious for giving good pitchers better strike zones, or other squeezing guys. Then there are umps who are just blasted during telecasts for being awful (one I know is a good guy, but roundly considered a poor ump). How many times have you seen a pitcher react after not getting a strike call on the black, only to get his next, maybe even better pitch called a ball. Same with a batter who takes an outside pitch only to have it called a strike. He reacts, and the next pitch (which might be worse) then is called a strike.

The NBA has a long-standing rep of catering to stars through officials' calls. It has done nothing to change that perception (though it has been busy keeping gambling/fixing charges away from its officials).

There were, what, three plays in overtime in Sunday's NFL game, and two were awful. A head-to-head spear to the QB was not called and neither was a facemask on the next play. The NFL at least made the effort to distract fans with its vague response to the facemask call. But you can be sure that if Brady or Favre were the QB, those flags fly. I hate all things Packers (as a lifelong Vikings fan), but they got hosed.

To me, it is safe to say that NHL officials are no better (and no worse) than any other major sport. As hockey fans, we just notice them more that ESPN would like us to.

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01-13-2010, 12:20 PM
  #50
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But you can be sure that if Brady or Favre were the QB, those flags fly.
Darn right.

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