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Sean Avery

View Poll Results: Is Sean Avery good or bad for the Rangers
Good 188 91.26%
Bad 18 8.74%
Voters: 206. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-17-2010, 09:18 PM
  #26
Ih8theislanders
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I missed the game tonight, what did he do?

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Old
01-17-2010, 09:21 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Ih8theislanders View Post
I missed the game tonight, what did he do?
Took two bad penalties the second of which resulted in a goal, yelled at the coach, then got in a fight which apparently redeemed him in the eyes of fickle fans.

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Old
01-17-2010, 09:30 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Took two bad penalties the second of which resulted in a goal, yelled at the coach, then got in a fight which apparently redeemed him in the eyes of fickle fans.
In order for that to be true you have to assume that taking two "bad" penalties somehow made all of said "fickle" fans think he was as worthless as players like Redden and Kotalik, or Brashear. Players who the majority dislike. Redden got in a fight tonight too, was anyone quick to say, "I told you so! Redden is the greatest D man we have!" No. When we collectively think a player sucks, we tend to be consistent in saying they suck, even if they do something good once in awhile. More importantly, vice versa.

You are in the minority, and trying to make it seem like anyone who supports Avery's tenure with the Rangers is some how a defect fan to suit your own agenda.

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Old
01-17-2010, 09:32 PM
  #29
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Can just we make this question a fill in the blanks template?

So every game when someone steps on their junk we can immediately start the "Oh my GOD this guy sucks!!!!" thread before the first period is even over?

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Old
01-17-2010, 09:33 PM
  #30
Fitzy
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No team except the Rangers would dare touch Avery, so i'd say that puts his supporters in the minority.

29 > 1

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Old
01-17-2010, 09:35 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
No team except the Rangers would dare touch Avery, so i'd say that puts his supporters in the minority.

29 > 1
Sorry, allow me to clarify. As a RANGER fan you are in the minority.

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Old
01-17-2010, 09:37 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
No team except the Rangers would dare touch Avery, so i'd say that puts his supporters in the minority.

29 > 1
The question is whether he's good for us, not good for the league or good for 29 other teams.

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Old
01-17-2010, 09:38 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
Sorry, allow me to clarify. As a RANGER fan you are in the minority.
And I am AOK with that.

You won't see me posting "This team sucks" or "game over" in the GDTs after 1 goal against either.

Avery leads this team with 95PIM, and has 5 goals. How is this acceptable output from a player earning 2 mil and a spot in the top 9, any more than Drury or Higgins?

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Old
01-17-2010, 09:42 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
I've been fighting the good fight and telling you guys that Sean Avery is a punk and detrimental to the team since we had him here the first time. However, the vast majority (I'd say 80% of the board), disagreed with me then, disagreed with me when we reacquired him, and disagreed with me at the beginning of the year when I was saying that he was the most logical choice for the fourth line.

I've always said he had some skill - enough to be an above average third liner. However, IMO, that modicum of skill has always been more than offset by his extracurricular idiocy. So, do people still feel the same way?

Very simple poll: Sean Avery - good or bad for the Rangers?

Good fight?!!!

Yeah--it was a bad penalty in the first. He redeemed himself in the 2nd. The crowd was really into it after his fight with Gorges. He is a character on a team that always doesn't show a lot of character. Could take a similar poll with a number of other players.

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Old
01-17-2010, 09:57 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Avery leads this team with 95PIM, and has 5 goals. How is this acceptable output from a player earning 2 mil and a spot in the top 9, any more than Drury or Higgins?
For all the kids out there, you see, when someone has an agenda, they tend to manipulate and/or ignore statistics to help their case.

Fitzy, for example, when reciting his Avery nonsense, always makes it a point to ignore the assists column.

See, because if he didn't, then Fitzy would have to tell you that Avery also has 13 assists this season, for 18 total points, making him the 6th-highest scoring forward on the team, and that while only playing 12-13 minutes a night (Renney played him much more -- and with better offensive players -- than Tortorella has).

Fitzy also won't tell you that Avery is a +1 for the season -- and that Gaborik and Dubinsky are the only forwards on the team with a greater +/- for the season.

(These statistics were going into tonight's game)

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Old
01-17-2010, 10:04 PM
  #36
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Here are some stats; Avery, even with assists included, would average only 9 goals and 34 points over a full season, which he seems incapable of playing.

He is 7th among forwards in points, on a team with only one true first line player.


Is 9 goals and 34 points second line production? No, its third line production at best. Throw in the tendency for Minor penalties and you have, as I have said, a third liner with an attitude problem.

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Old
01-17-2010, 10:09 PM
  #37
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I've said this before, but not in a while, so I guess it's time to say it again. Keep in mind, I'm not an Avery fanboy. He's not my favorite player, and some of the stuff he does certainly gets on my nerves.

That said, in terms of hockey sense and positioning, Avery is one of the smartest players in the NHL. Bar none. He has EXCELLENT instincts. That is something to be treasured.

Obviously, he's prone to doing stupid things. But you have to take the good with the bad in almost every case. Not everyone can be a Callahan and hardly ever do something wrong.

IMO, Avery is a guy I'll always take on my team, even with the mistakes he makes emotionally. If this team was properly constructed, we could have a phenomenal third line with Avery and Callahan on the wings.

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Old
01-17-2010, 10:10 PM
  #38
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I like Avery he is a good agitator and he sparks the team. Perfect 3rd line player on a good playoff team. And I dont think he is hated by his current teamates. He is one of the players who talks during the team meetings along with Hank.

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Old
01-17-2010, 10:11 PM
  #39
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Avery's a guy who can create a spark sometimes, and who sticks up for his team mates.

And the last 2 games, he was one of players on the ice with the most effort for us. He still played rough and was still out there getting people's faces when the rest of the team was just floating around giving the puck away.

Yeah, he takes dumbass penalties, but he also draws them. And since our PK is good it ends up being OK.

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01-17-2010, 10:15 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
a third liner with an attitude problem.
Which on a team with little personality, grit or emotion most nights, is that something you want to waive and banish to the AHL?

You would rather Kotalik or Brashear I'm sure, right?

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Old
01-17-2010, 10:18 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
Which on a team with little personality, grit or emotion most nights, is that something you want to waive and banish to the AHL?

You would rather Kotalik or Brashear I'm sure, right?
Brashear is utterly useless.
Kotalik should play 4th line duties and PP.
Lisin should be on the third line for the rest of this season.
That 2 million should be used to re-sign a useful player like Staal.

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Old
01-17-2010, 10:22 PM
  #42
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Please don't insult each other, guys. Insulting Sean is okay, but not each other.

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Old
01-17-2010, 10:34 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Here are some stats; Avery, even with assists included, would average only 9 goals and 34 points over a full season, which he seems incapable of playing...

Is 9 goals and 34 points second line production? No, its third line production at best...
1. Your thing about he's "incapable" of playing a full season is more nonsense. He has only missed 5 games this year -- and that's because Callahan accidently ran into him in practice. It was a fluke incident. He doesn't have any chronic injury problems at all, like a bad back or knee. The last time he had a significant injury was three years ago -- that was his wrist, and that problem came after a teammate's shot hit him in the wrist. So, again, this argument of yours is nonsense -- if he finishes this season having missed the 5 games and maybe a few more, he's played a full season for all intents and purposes.

2. I guess you're going to choose to ignore the +/- statistic.

3. I guess you're going to choose to ignore the the change to his minutes and linemates under Renney, which has played a role in his numbers

4. I'm not really interested in what he's "on pace for." If he finishes with 10 goals, it is slightly disappointing from him, yes. But at this point, he could just as easily finish with 12-15, which is right where he should be, so let's just see what happens.

5. Here's his full body of work with the Rangers though: Coming into this season, Avery had scored 28 goals and added 37 assists for 65 points in 104 total regular season games as a Ranger over (parts of) three seasons; in terms of points per game, his numbers work out to a point every 1.6 games. In the playoffs, Avery has 5 goals and 9 assists for 14 total points in 24 total playoff games. That's a point every 1.7 games. Those are good numbers. And its a large sample size. Find a way to knock that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
He is 7th among forwards in points, on a team with only one true first line player.
Like I said before, he's 6th, not 7th. Only Gaborik, Prospal, Dubinsky, Kotalik and Callahan have more.


Last edited by Kind of Blue: 01-17-2010 at 10:42 PM.
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Old
01-17-2010, 10:35 PM
  #44
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Sean is one of the few guys on the team this year that really gets what it means to "be a Ranger"

He's going to bust ass all season for us, and anyone who thinks he isn't good for the team, just look at the records. He's an "x factor" and he plays his role perfectly.

Does he take some dumb penalties? Sure. Although the two tonight weren't that garbage. The first one on the icing I get, he's pumped up at the beginning of the game and trying to let the other team know he's there. He probably didn't know it was icing which isn't a good thing. On the second one I forget who he bumped but come on. The guy fell faster than Marty.

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Old
01-17-2010, 10:46 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Kind of Blue View Post
1. Your thing about he's "incapable" of playing a full season is more nonsense. He has only missed 5 games this year -- and that's because Callahan accidently ran into him in practice. It was a fluke incident. He doesn't have any chronic injury problems at all, like a bad back or knee. The last time he had a significant injury was three years ago -- that was his wrist, and that problem came after a teammate's shot hit him in the wrist. So, again, this argument of yours is nonsense -- if he finishes this season having missed those 5 games, and even a couple more, he's played a full season for all intents and purposes.

2. I guess you're going to choose to ignore the +/- statistic.

3. I guess you're going to choose to ignore the the change to his minutes and linemates under Tortorella.

4. I'm not really interested in what he's "on pace for." If he finishes with 10 goals, it is slightly disappointing from him, yes. But at this point, he could just as easily finish with 12-15, which is right where he should be, so let's just see what happens, its a long season.

5. Here's his full body of work with the Rangers though: Coming into this season, Avery had scored 28 goals and added 37 assists for 65 points in 104 total regular season games as a Ranger over (parts of) three seasons; in terms of points per game, his numbers work out to a point every 1.6 games. In the playoffs, Avery has 5 goals and 9 assists for 14 total points in 24 total playoff games. That's a point every 1.7 games. Those are good numbers. And its a large sample size. Find a way to knock that.
1. Avery has played only one full season, and that was the year he was dealt to the Rangers.

2. +/- is a largely irrelevant statistic in my eyes. Malik lead the league in 03-04 for christ's sake.

3. He has spent time on every line. 3 of his measly 5 goals were on the power play. Im not buying the TOI argument, if its a few minutes shorter than other players its because he's either benched for poor play or his ass is in the box as usual.

4. And Higgins could do the same. The point about production remains unaltered.

5. And in that time, he has over 300 minutes in penalties. From a guy who doesn't fight all that often, thats obscene.

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01-17-2010, 10:53 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
1. Avery has played only one full season, and that was the year he was dealt to the Rangers.

2. +/- is a largely irrelevant statistic in my eyes. Malik lead the league in 03-04 for christ's sake.

3. He has spent time on every line. 3 of his measly 5 goals were on the power play. Im not buying the TOI argument, if its a few minutes shorter than other players its because he's either benched for poor play or his ass is in the box as usual.

4. And Higgins could do the same. The point about production remains unaltered.

5. And in that time, he has over 300 minutes in penalties. From a guy who doesn't fight all that often, thats obscene.
If you want more goals from Avery (or Higgins or any of the other numerous stone-handed third liners on this team), give him a playmaker. He's more than capable of scoring 15-18 goals in the right situation. On a well-constructed team, however, he wouldn't be expected to score that much. That wouldn't be his role, nor should it be.

Also, you can't disparage him for the amount of penalties he takes without bringing up the amount of penalties he draws.

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Old
01-17-2010, 11:03 PM
  #47
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I'd actually be curious as to seeing the # of PIM he draws.

Sure, there's games he takes dumb penalties and draws none, but there's also games where he draws a few and doesn't take any (or takes less then he draws).

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Old
01-17-2010, 11:41 PM
  #48
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Just a thought: How many players in the NHL have mentally worn down Ilya Kovalchuk? Granted it was a team effort, but Sean Avery's work in that first round matchup a few years ago was absolutely fantastic.

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Old
01-18-2010, 12:00 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
1. Avery has played only one full season, and that was the year he was dealt to the Rangers.
Uh, no. He had that full season, plus he played at least 75 games with LA in two other seasons, plus he'll probably play that many again this season. For all intents and purposes, 75 games is a full season of hockey, especially for a physical player. Get over it. He had one season where he had a wrist injury after he got hit by a puck and another he was suspended, that's all.

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2. +/- is a largely irrelevant statistic in my eyes. Malik lead the league in 03-04 for christ's sake.
I realize its more convenient for you to think that when the Rangers score while he's on the ice, its a coincidence, and when they get scored on while he's on the ice, its his fault. Say what you want about the plus-minus statistics, but at the very least its a decent rule of thumb, and goes against your argument that he's a liability on the ice. Its not like he's in the middle of the pack on the team -- the only two forwards with a better number are the two best forwards on the team.

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3. He has spent time on every line. 3 of his measly 5 goals were on the power play. Im not buying the TOI argument, if its a few minutes shorter than other players its because he's either benched for poor play or his ass is in the box as usual.
I forgot that power play goals don't count, sorry.

And the TOI argument isn't for you to "buy." If you watch the games, he's been used differently by two different coaches with two different styles. For example, Renney played Avery with Jagr often, and to great effect, because he has speed and he created space for Jags and Dubinsky ; Tortorella hasn't wanted to use Avery in that way with Gaborik. That doesn't mean he's being benched.


Last edited by Kind of Blue: 01-18-2010 at 12:19 AM.
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Old
01-18-2010, 12:25 AM
  #50
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He's being used to piss people off on the other team.

He does a pretty good job of it. Other players slash him on a regular basis and have taken incredibly dumb penalties as a result.

And not all of avery's penalties that he takes are completely stupid. Like the boarding call.. he didn't realize it was an icing.. he should have.. but it's not like he's intentionally doing loads of stupid things resulting in penalties against us. I'd like to see him be more disciplined with things like cross checking or slashing, because those are easily avoided penalties. Plus if he takes penalties it kind of takes away the anger against him. If he does a bunch of **** and gets uncalled then other players lose it and start doing dumb things like slashing him

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