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Old
01-18-2010, 11:03 AM
  #26
rathertense
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No,

I think the point is that you don't pay 3 million a year with a NTC to a player who averages around 40-45 pts a year and has no value outside of the PP.

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01-18-2010, 11:07 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The most curious thing about the deal is I'm really not sure who Sather was bidding against.
Along with Drury, Brashear, Redden, Rozsival.....

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01-18-2010, 11:07 AM
  #28
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Rather see Lisin in there over Kotalik. And I'd rather see Voros over Brashear. Lisin can at least make things happen with his speed while Kotalik doesn't do enough 5 on 5. As for Brashear, it's funny he fights and it seems he gets hurt and is out 5 games that seems to be the pattern. What happened to the nasty Brashear who actually checked people into the boards, Voros at least tries and mixes it up like he did last night.

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01-18-2010, 11:11 AM
  #29
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I agree with Melrose here. He was advertised and known as a PP specialist, and that's exactly what he's been.

The fact that he's getting paid $3 million to fill that role is questionable, yes, but he's been generally effective at filling it. If the expectation was that we'd get a two-way, 20 goal scoring second liner with a booming shot from the point, then I'd be a little disappointed, but that shouldn't have been the expectation.

It's an overpayment to fill a need, but at least the main need of PP point shot is being filled. It's not like paying $7 million for a 1st line center that doesn't score or create chances for his teammates or millions for a top end defenseman that isn't

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01-18-2010, 11:19 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
Along with Drury, Brashear, Redden, Rozsival.....
Brashear and Redden, yes.

Rozsival and Drury, no.

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01-18-2010, 11:38 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by kennglin13 View Post
So this off season when we cannot sign a playmaker for 3 million....
I'm going to stop you there, because $3M buys you "Kotalik level" player and nothing more.

Name me the "playmaking" $3M UFA that would have been or would be such a huge upgrade AND addresses the need for someone to play the point on the PP. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that player would agree to sign here for those terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jas View Post
$3 million per for three years for a player who has become a healthy scratch is NOT hurting the Ranger cap situation? Really?
I think you're in denial about the contribution Kotalik's already made despite being in the doghouse at the moment.

Ales has not forgotten how to do his job. It's pretty simple. It's up to the coach to help him get back into a position to help the team.

And excuse me if I'm not reading into coaching decisions as if they were gospel. We are, after all, talking about the guy who can't stop himself from breaking up any and every line combo that ever shows chemistry, or stop himself from benching the aforementioned "ice mop" unless he's hurt.

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01-18-2010, 11:54 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I think you're in denial about the contribution Kotalik's already made despite being in the doghouse at the moment.

Ales has not forgotten how to do his job. It's pretty simple. It's up to the coach to help him get back into a position to help the team.

And excuse me if I'm not reading into coaching decisions as if they were gospel. We are, after all, talking about the guy who can't stop himself from breaking up any and every line combo that ever shows chemistry, or stop himself from benching the aforementioned "ice mop" unless he's hurt.
Denial? Does your take on his contribution include the numerous bad penalties he's been prone to taking?

As for his contribution on the PP, there is no contribution on the PP while he's being benched for the 2nd time this season. And, while I agree Tortorella needs to stop tinkering with his lines, I do not see this as a sympton of that tinkering. To me, that is the coach believing he is not getting the proper effort out of a player. One time is understable, two times says something more.

I felt the day Kotalik was signed that he wouldn't remain in NY for the full term of his contract. I have yet to be convinced otherwise. To me, that is proof this was a bad signing. You could have added a Dennis Seidenberg for less money and got the same results.

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01-18-2010, 12:12 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
To me, that is proof this was a bad signing. You could have added a Dennis Seidenberg for less money and got the same results.
It could just be a bad fit despite good intentions. He wouldn't be the first player that Tortorella just didn't care to use. And with that said, all the other guys that USED to be in his dog house, like Avery, Lisin, Voros, are suddenly reborn, so it's not as if the book is closed on Ales for eternity.

I'm not following the Seidenberg example. Kotalik has more points on the PP over the past 2 seasons than Seidenberg has in his career and clearly isn't the type of player the organization targeted in the offseason. You could have brought Mara back at half the price if you wanted a Seidenberg type guy, but you've still got a hole on the wing.

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01-18-2010, 12:17 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
It could just be a bad fit despite good intentions. He wouldn't be the first player that Tortorella just didn't care to use. And with that said, all the other guys that USED to be in his dog house, like Avery, Lisin, Voros, are suddenly reborn, so it's not as if the book is closed on Ales for eternity.

I'm not following the Seidenberg example. Kotalik has more points on the PP over the past 2 seasons than Seidenberg has in his career and clearly isn't the type of player the organization targeted in the offseason. You could have brought Mara back at half the price if you wanted a Seidenberg type guy, but you've still got a hole on the wing.
I guess what I'm saying is if you wanted a big shot on the PP, you could have done it cheaper. As for the hole on the wing, was it a hole that had to be filled in July? Granted, I'm guessing they weren't aware that Prospal was going to become available, but, if my memory serves me correctly, didn't the Kotalik signing preclude them from retaining Zherdev? If I'm given a choice, I take the younger Zherdev for one year @ $3.9 million, rather than Kotalik @ $9 million over three years...just strikes me as what SBOB was saying on the other thread about Sather and Co. not really evaluating things on a long term basis.

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01-18-2010, 12:23 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
Along with Drury, Brashear, Redden, Rozsival.....
Someone else would have paid Rozsival 5M at that point, Drury had half the NHL offering 6M+, Redden had a similar offer to ours from Columbus. I figure guys come here knowing the pressure is off when they're making 5M or more... they still get to live in New York and enjoy life as part of the richest organization in the NHL... guys like Drury try to look like they try by skating around the perimeter of the rink. Guys like Redden just skate around.

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Old
01-18-2010, 12:49 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Brashear and Redden, yes.

Rozsival and Drury, no.
Drury and Rozsival have been 2 of our better players lately. Its a shame most posters cant put their paychecks aside and at least acknowledge that.

Redden and Brashear are lost causes.

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01-18-2010, 02:06 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jas View Post
I guess what I'm saying is if you wanted a big shot on the PP, you could have done it cheaper.
They didn't want a big shot. They wanted a guy who had a resume of putting that big shot in the net.

Zherdev. Kotalik. Whatever. Uni-dimensional players that you know you're going to want to strangle more often then you're going to want to celebrate. Having been down the Zherdev road and been left wildly underwhelmed, I didn't have a problem with the choice that at least filled an obvious need. That's really all I'm trying to say about Kotalik.

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01-18-2010, 02:36 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
They didn't want a big shot. They wanted a guy who had a resume of putting that big shot in the net.

Zherdev. Kotalik. Whatever. Uni-dimensional players that you know you're going to want to strangle more often then you're going to want to celebrate. Having been down the Zherdev road and been left wildly underwhelmed, I didn't have a problem with the choice that at least filled an obvious need. That's really all I'm trying to say about Kotalik.
Fair enough. I didn't like giving $9 million to a player like Kotalik, especially at age 32 on his way down.

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01-18-2010, 02:40 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I'm going to stop you there, because $3M buys you "Kotalik level" player and nothing more.

Name me the "playmaking" $3M UFA that would have been or would be such a huge upgrade AND addresses the need for someone to play the point on the PP. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that player would agree to sign here for those terms.

Joe Pavelski or Alexander Frolov (i know itd be a paycut but if it were over bash/kotes..). Hell I'd even take John Madden.

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01-18-2010, 03:07 PM
  #40
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Our powerplay isn't noticeably better when Kotalik's on the point.

I hope we keep Drury on the point, he may not have a hard shot but he keeps it low and he's so much better at keeping it in the zone and can actually play defense if and when it's necessary on the PP.

When Kotalik re-emerges to the lineup and when he's on the powerplay I hope he plays along the boards and we use some sort of Umbrella, similar to what Atlanta does on their powerplay. Go with him and then Del Zotto and either Drury or another defenseman as the people that play towards the top, at least we don't have to hold our breath as hard everytime the puck goes near Kotalik on the point.

He's not worth the points he puts up at all. We have good players, and I think it's a huge misconception if there are people out there that actually think you need a player with a cannon like Kotalik's to be successful ont he PP. Hell, his shot's one of the most inaccurate int he league too. I can't remember the last time I saw him keep a shot low enough for someone to deflect it.

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01-18-2010, 03:13 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR View Post
Someone else would have paid Rozsival 5M at that point, Drury had half the NHL offering 6M+, Redden had a similar offer to ours from Columbus. I figure guys come here knowing the pressure is off when they're making 5M or more... they still get to live in New York and enjoy life as part of the richest organization in the NHL... guys like Drury try to look like they try by skating around the perimeter of the rink. Guys like Redden just skate around.
This is one of the most untrue posts I've ever seen. No one would've paid Roszival that much money considering his knee problems, his actual caliber (middle of the pack 2nd pair d-man), and his age. Even if it were true about Drury getting those offers, it doesn't justify overpaying for him.

I also find it hard to believe Columbus had an offer anywhere near as ridiculous as the one we had for Redden, I dont know where you heard that but I'm calling BS.

How exactly is the pressure OFF when they have that contract to live up to?

And they TRY to look like they try by skating around?

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01-18-2010, 03:25 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
This is one of the most untrue posts I've ever seen. No one would've paid Roszival that much money considering his knee problems, his actual caliber (middle of the pack 2nd pair d-man), and his age. Even if it were true about Drury getting those offers, it doesn't justify overpaying for him.

I also find it hard to believe Columbus had an offer anywhere near as ridiculous as the one we had for Redden, I dont know where you heard that but I'm calling BS.

How exactly is the pressure OFF when they have that contract to live up to?

And they TRY to look like they try by skating around?
Re: Roszival - Yes, someone would have certainly signed him to that contract. He wasn't a "hot" commodity, but a known one, for sure. If you recall, Roszival was playing big minutes for us on our top pair, and decently, at that. Do you even watch hockey?

Drury was getting offers of ~$7m from both LA and San Jose. The contract we gave him WASN'T overpayment. It was market value, as justified by the offers he was fielding. Same thing with Gomez. If we want to talk about living up to that contract, that's a different story. How hard is that for people to understand?

Redden got an offer of (I believe) more money from Columbus and Dallas as well, IIRC.

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01-18-2010, 03:33 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandNewDream View Post
Re: Roszival - Yes, someone would have certainly signed him to that contract. He wasn't a "hot" commodity, but a known one, for sure. If you recall, Roszival was playing big minutes for us on our top pair, and decently, at that. Do you even watch hockey?

Drury was getting offers of ~$7m from both LA and San Jose. The contract we gave him WASN'T overpayment. It was market value, as justified by the offers he was fielding. Same thing with Gomez. If we want to talk about living up to that contract, that's a different story. How hard is that for people to understand?

Redden got an offer of (I believe) more money from Columbus and Dallas as well, IIRC.
It is overpayment for the production. I don't care what the market value of the player is, even if Drury repeated the numbers he put up his contract year it isn't worth $7m/year.

And I don't remember anything about what Redden was getting offered but I'd venture to say we offered him the most years. I also think it was a knee-jerk, desperation move because Sather couldn't get Campbell and felt the PP really needed a boost(probably a huge reason he bit so hard on getting Drury too).

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01-18-2010, 03:42 PM
  #44
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It is overpayment for the production. I don't care what the market value of the player is, even if Drury repeated the numbers he put up his contract year it isn't worth $7m/year.
That's your own opinion, and in that case, anyone who got Drury would have overpaid. But with him being one of the top two centers on the market (along with Gomez) that offseason, that's what he would have gotten.

In any given summer, even though there may not be "elite" players available, the teams with cash are going to find ways to spend it.

I only pointed out the market establishing the value because it isn't completely Sather's fault as to Drury's contract. Perhaps it's his fault in signing Drury in the first place. It's certainly his fault in combining the Drury, Redden, Gomez, and Roszival contracts on one team. But the salary and term of each one of those contracts (individually) wasn't completely up to Glen.

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01-18-2010, 03:50 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandNewDream View Post
That's your own opinion, and in that case, anyone who got Drury would have overpaid. But with him being one of the top two centers on the market (along with Gomez) that offseason, that's what he would have gotten.

In any given summer, even though there may not be "elite" players available, the teams with cash are going to find ways to spend it.

I only pointed out the market establishing the value because it isn't completely Sather's fault as to Drury's contract. Perhaps it's his fault in signing Drury in the first place. It's certainly his fault in combining the Drury, Redden, Gomez, and Roszival contracts on one team. But the salary and term of each one of those contracts (individually) wasn't completely up to Glen.
Before we moved Gomez I think the biggest problem was signing both of them.

I don't really mind Drury at all as long as we don't have someone else that doesn't deserve a huge contract at center.

Signing Redden AND re-signing Roszival in the same off-season is again, very similar. I could deal with one of them (preferably Roszival), but both? That's brutal.

And I'll be the first to agree it's not all on Glen. And you have to also consider Dolan expects playoffs every year, what's he really gonna do? It's amazing to me he's managed to not lose any significant young assets or been forced to move any, other than maybe Fedor Tyutin(please people, I'm not interested in hearing about Prucha and Dawes having decent years.) He may not be the best GM by any means, but he gets an unfair rap from some fans that don't want to look at the entire picture and rationally consider all arguments and things Sather has to deal with in making personnel decisions.

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01-18-2010, 03:56 PM
  #46
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And I'll be the first to agree it's not all on Glen. And you have to also consider Dolan expects playoffs every year, what's he really gonna do? It's amazing to me he's managed to not lose any significant young assets or been forced to move any, other than maybe Fedor Tyutin(please people, I'm not interested in hearing about Prucha and Dawes having decent years.) He may not be the best GM by any means, but he gets an unfair rap from some fans that don't want to look at the entire picture and rationally consider all arguments and things Sather has to deal with in making personnel decisions.
It's hard to lose significant young assets when there aren't that many to begin with. By the way, you want to see a GM that has to deal with things, take a look at a David Poile. Take a look at Don Maloney. These are GMs that have to deal with things. The only things Sather has to deal with are the absurd blunders that he himself makes year after year.

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01-23-2010, 03:14 PM
  #47
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Really liked his reply to the trade request rumors.

And Kotalik flat-out denied that he asked for a trade. "No, are you serious? I wouldn't hurt the team. I'm just trying to be a good teammate."

I'm sure he's not happy about not playing but can't say he's a bad guy in the locker room.

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Old
01-23-2010, 03:22 PM
  #48
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I guess it'll be a long time before I can play this again: http://aleskotalik.ytmnd.com/

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01-23-2010, 03:26 PM
  #49
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Enjoying the pressbox, Ales?

LOL. The guy has been scratched for 4 games straight, 5 counting tonight's game against MTL. Some signing huh?

@ Sather

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01-23-2010, 03:42 PM
  #50
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Enjoying the pressbox, Ales?

LOL. The guy has been scratched for 4 games straight, 5 counting tonight's game against MTL. Some signing huh?

@ Sather
to be fair, while ive hated this signing since the second i heard about it, if you look at his numbers throughout his career, hes been a reliable 20-20-40 guy....which hes actually roughly on pace for...

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