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Old
01-21-2010, 02:05 PM
  #101
JPFT
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Originally Posted by artilector View Post
I'm gonna chime in as an outside observer (Caps fan).

If you're gonna get Kovy, you've got to find a way to retain Frolov. It would be crazy not to. They've played great for Russia before, and really Frolov is everything Kovy needs in terms of support -- possession, size, defensive awareness, skill. And Frolov is cheap. Heck, you might get him for 3.5 per. That's insane. He's better than probably 95% of the players making that much.

In a nutshell, if you were going to design the ideal complementary wing for Kovy, it would probably be Frolov... and you can have him for a bargain price..
This.

Frolov and Kovalchuk were together in the 2009 World Championships in Switzerland as well (gold medal).
They were together on the ice as well (I was rooting for Russia as I usually do in international championships ) and it was a joy to watch!

Also, I think Kovalchuk would like Frolov on the team as well. Weren't there rumours about him wanting Antropov to sign with Atlanta when he did? (Maybe Afinogenov as well?)
These two together would be awesome.

I don't really get why a star would "hurt" either, especially Kovy since he doesn't seem like a person who would claim the attention.

I was thinking of a way to put a line of Frolov (playmaking, great overall so defense as well), Kovalchuk (great shot) and Williams (speed) together but I don't know who'd be center...



So exciting this is I hope the wise desicions will be made.

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Old
01-21-2010, 02:07 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
People that care more about winning a Stanley Cup than they do about watching a star player. Sorry, but Ziggy, and Ziggy alone, never gave us a chance of winning a cup.

I hope Lombardi stays the course. I am looking for something more along the lines of Whitney if the Kings are going to take on a rental for the rest of the season. I still think for the long term Dean has his eye on Marleau.

So you're pretty much saying he wouldn't help the Kings win a cup???


Bottom line is, he makes the Kings a better team.

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Old
01-21-2010, 02:09 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Two seasons ago I thought that star was Kopitar.

But, he's still young and there's still time... (for Jim Hill and other local broadcasters to learn how to pronounce "Anze")
Did you HAVE to mention Jim Hill? Can't stand that guy!

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Old
01-21-2010, 02:34 PM
  #104
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It doesn't have to be Frolov if Simmonds is involved in the package.

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Old
01-21-2010, 02:52 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Here are the options I would make available to Atlanta:

One of the following veterans: Handzus, Stoll, Williams
One of the following young forwards: Moller, Lewis, Kozun
One of the following young defensemen: Hickey, Teubert, Deslauriers
Option of a 2010 or 2011 1st Round Pick
Conditional 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2010 (condition being that the Kings and Kovalchuk agree to a contract extension)

This package would be similar to the Marian Hossa trade that Don Waddell negotiated. In the Hossa trade with Pittsburgh, the Thrashers received:

Colby Armstrong (veteran forward)
Erik Christensen (young forward)
Angelo Esposito (prospect)
2008 1st Round Pick (29th Overall, selected forward Daultan Leveille)
You know what the Pens got lucky too...Armstrong is the only Thrasher...Esposito has proven nothing and neither has Leveille. Christensen went from Atlanta to Ananheim to waivers to the Rangers.

The deal was almost a wash....Hossa left and the Thrashers don't have much to show and the Pens didn't give up anything they are missing.

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Old
01-21-2010, 02:56 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by ibleedkings View Post
So you're pretty much saying he wouldn't help the Kings win a cup???


Bottom line is, he makes the Kings a better team.
Has he even helped ATL be a playoff team year in and year out?

Whether or not the Kings would be a better team with Kovalchuk depends on what they give up to get him, doesn't it? So, I don't see your bottom line just yet.

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Old
01-21-2010, 03:18 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Whether or not the Kings would be a better team with Kovalchuk depends on what they give up to get him, doesn't it? So, I don't see your bottom line just yet.
You would, if you were a Lombardi Loyalist.

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Old
01-21-2010, 03:27 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Toxostoma Rufum View Post
It doesn't have to be Frolov if Simmonds is involved in the package.
SHHHH.......

no Simmonds, please no simmonds. That is the only guy i am worried that Atl will ask for.

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Old
01-21-2010, 03:28 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by JT8888 View Post
SHHHH.......

no Simmonds, please no simmonds. That is the only guy i am worried that Atl will ask for.

wouldn't you?

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Old
01-21-2010, 03:32 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Has he even helped ATL be a playoff team year in and year out?
Yeah but realize that one player can't carry an entire organization on their shoulders and carry them to the promised land. Especially considering how badly Atlanta has been run

Sincerely,

Wayne Gretzky

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Old
01-21-2010, 03:34 PM
  #111
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Kovy is a proven 50g scorer that plays almost every game every year. I don't understand the hesitation to trade unproven draft picks, combined with 2nd or 3rd line players. I understand some players are "fan favorites" but if simmonds is who they want I give him up happily knowing what im getting in return.

ALL prospects should be available. Schenn is projected to be a great 2 way 2nd line player. You are getting a top 5 player in the league back.

I like Ziggy's proposal line of think the best, but I would not limit it to just those players.

Roster player
Prospect
Highest draft pick.

The point in having a deep system is to be able to make trades like this. you lose good players to get a great one. Whats the point in having the system so deep if your not willing to part with them for obvious upgrades. R

Outside of DD, Quick and Kopi, no one should be untouchable.

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Old
01-21-2010, 03:42 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Has he even helped ATL be a playoff team year in and year out?

Whether or not the Kings would be a better team with Kovalchuk depends on what they give up to get him, doesn't it? So, I don't see your bottom line just yet.
Even If the Kings were to trade Brown, Frolov and Johnson (which will never happen, nor would I say do this per say), I still think the Kings get better. (this is assuming Kovy is locked up long term and not just a rental)

This is where the deep system comes in. You have kids that can fill the roles, and if they don't pan out you are out looking for a top 6-9 player and not a 1-2 player.

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01-21-2010, 03:53 PM
  #113
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You could say we have a handful of top 6 forwards, the main problem is that all those guys are really 4-6 type forwards with Kopi being the only exception. We have a couple of guys that are debateable like Smyth and Frolov, but even they wouldn't crack the top line on many many teams.

When it comes down to it though we need 1 or 2 more top 3 forwards.

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Old
01-21-2010, 03:54 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Winger23 View Post
Even If the Kings were to trade Brown, Frolov and Johnson (which will never happen, nor would I say do this per say), I still think the Kings get better. (this is assuming Kovy is locked up long term and not just a rental)

This is where the deep system comes in. You have kids that can fill the roles, and if they don't pan out you are out looking for a top 6-9 player and not a 1-2 player.
I like this thinking. No chance of it ever happening, but it's still good.

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Old
01-21-2010, 03:59 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Winger23 View Post
Even If the Kings were to trade Brown, Frolov and Johnson (which will never happen, nor would I say do this per say), I still think the Kings get better. (this is assuming Kovy is locked up long term and not just a rental)

This is where the deep system comes in. You have kids that can fill the roles, and if they don't pan out you are out looking for a top 6-9 player and not a 1-2 player.
Who replaces Johnson's minutes? Is Voinov ready or do you make another trade for a defenseman? This season would be lost if you trade your captain and longest tenured player.

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Old
01-21-2010, 04:04 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Winger23 View Post
This is where the deep system comes in. You have kids that can fill the roles, and if they don't pan out you are out looking for a top 6-9 player and not a 1-2 player.
Isn't that kinda putting the cart before the horse? I mean hypotheically if that were to happen, who can you expect to fill Brown, Frolov and Johnson's roles (that just doesn't sound right)? I personally don't think they can afford to give up Jack Johnson this season unless the get an adequate replacement. Maybe I'm too conservative but I'd hate to see the fruits of our pain and suffering for the past 3 years go to waste either.

I'm not against a Kovalchuk trade but I think they'll give up way too much if they do. I guess time will tell.

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Old
01-21-2010, 04:13 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Has he even helped ATL be a playoff team year in and year out?

Whether or not the Kings would be a better team with Kovalchuk depends on what they give up to get him, doesn't it? So, I don't see your bottom line just yet.
I always laugh at that logic. That's like saying the Lakers shouldn't have traded for Pau Gasol because he didn't help Memphis be a playoff team "year in and year out."

Success begins with ownership and upper management. Atlanta has some of the worst. Lot of uber-talented players get stuck in a bad environment.

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Old
01-21-2010, 04:52 PM
  #118
Peter Sidorkiewicz
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Here are the options I would make available to Atlanta:

One of the following veterans: Handzus, Stoll, Williams
One of the following young forwards: Moller, Lewis, Kozun
One of the following young defensemen: Hickey, Teubert, Deslauriers
Option of a 2010 or 2011 1st Round Pick
Conditional 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2010 (condition being that the Kings and Kovalchuk agree to a contract extension)

This package would be similar to the Marian Hossa trade that Don Waddell negotiated. In the Hossa trade with Pittsburgh, the Thrashers received:

Colby Armstrong (veteran forward)
Erik Christensen (young forward)
Angelo Esposito (prospect)
2008 1st Round Pick (29th Overall, selected forward Daultan Leveille)

Colby Armstrong was only 24 when Atlanta acquired him, I wouldn't call him a veteran.

If you want to use the Hossa template, comparable players would be:
Moller, Simmonds (young roster forwards, both 3rd liners such were Armstrong and Christiansen)
Schenn (Top Forward Prospect, as were Esposito was at Pittsburgh at the time)
1st Round Pick 2010

for Kovalchuk and Throw-in (Jim Slater?)

for cap reasons, a secondary trade can be made, or added to the Kovalchuk deal, if it suits Atlanta's needs such as

Frolov (will replace Kovalchuk on first line) for Armstrong (Replacement for Simmonds?).

Atlanta is strong with defenseman prospects and ideally would like to re-sign Kubina so I don't think they would be interested in Hickey, Teubert.
Despite Pavelec, Bernier could be a player Atlanta requests, given Lehtonen injury woes and this is likely Hedberg last season.


Last edited by Peter Sidorkiewicz: 01-21-2010 at 05:02 PM.
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Old
01-21-2010, 04:54 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Peter Sidorkiewicz View Post
Colby Armstrong was only 24 when Atlanta acquired him, I wouldn't call him a veteran.

If you want to use the Hossa template, comparable players would be:
Moller, Simmonds (young roster forwards, both 3rd liners such were Armstrong and Christiansen)
Schenn (Top Forward Prospect, as were Esposito was at Pittsburgh at the time)
1st Round Pick 2010

for Kovalchuk and Throw-in (Jim Slater?)

for cap reasons, a secondary trade can be made, or added to the Kovalchuk deal, such as

Frolov for Armstrong.

Atlanta is strong with defenseman prospects and ideally would like to re-sign Kubina so I don't think they would be interested in Hickey, Teubert.
Despite Pavelec, Bernier could be a player Atlanta requests, given Lehtonen injury woes and this is likely Hedberg last season.
Well you won't be getting Bernier. As much as I hate to give up Moller, sure. But not Moller & Simmonds. That's better than Armstrong/Christrensen... especially when Dupuis (the throw in) is really just as good as either of those guys.

To me, a real comparison is: Moller, Parse, Schenn and a 1st.

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Old
01-21-2010, 05:00 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Well you won't be getting Bernier. As much as I hate to give up Moller, sure. But not Moller & Simmonds. That's better than Armstrong/Christrensen... especially when Dupuis (the throw in) is really just as good as either of those guys.

To me, a real comparison is: Moller, Parse, Schenn and a 1st.
i actually believe they need more help on the back-end than the other poster thinks.

and again, i still think that Kovalchuk leaving also means the departure of Afinogenov, Kozlov AND Kubina at the end of the season.

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Old
01-21-2010, 05:05 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Peter Sidorkiewicz View Post
Colby Armstrong was only 24 when Atlanta acquired him, I wouldn't call him a veteran.

If you want to use the Hossa template, comparable players would be:
Moller, Simmonds (young roster forwards, both 3rd liners such were Armstrong and Christiansen)
Schenn (Top Forward Prospect, as were Esposito was at Pittsburgh at the time)
1st Round Pick 2010

for Kovalchuk and Throw-in (Jim Slater?)

for cap reasons, a secondary trade can be made, or added to the Kovalchuk deal, such as

Frolov for Armstrong.

Atlanta is strong with defenseman prospects and ideally would like to re-sign Kubina so I don't think they would be interested in Hickey, Teubert.
Despite Pavelec, Bernier could be a player Atlanta requests, given Lehtonen injury woes and this is likely Hedberg last season.
Esposito was not highly regarded like Schenn
Schenn was picked 5th overall and Esposito 20th

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Old
01-21-2010, 05:07 PM
  #122
Winger23
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Originally Posted by drivelikejoewho View Post
Isn't that kinda putting the cart before the horse? I mean hypotheically if that were to happen, who can you expect to fill Brown, Frolov and Johnson's roles (that just doesn't sound right)? I personally don't think they can afford to give up Jack Johnson this season unless the get an adequate replacement. Maybe I'm too conservative but I'd hate to see the fruits of our pain and suffering for the past 3 years go to waste either.

I'm not against a Kovalchuk trade but I think they'll give up way too much if they do. I guess time will tell.
I'm not as good as most here at putting my thoughts into words correctly. It was just an example of the Kings depth that can be used to acquire upgrades.

You can replace Johnson with a pick, a prospect, or even another forward. I'm just saying no matter what the combination of the 2 roster players (forwards) that would come from the kings, outside Kopitar, would be a huge upgrade to get Kovy.

We have a glaring hole our on our top line. You may create another hole by trading more than 1 roster player for only 1 in return, but it's much easier to replace a lower tier player than it is for one of the best in the league.

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Old
01-21-2010, 05:07 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by ibleedkings View Post
This is the kind of thinking that will never get you over the hump. You don't want a top five talent on this team??? Ovie is a huge distraction and that situation is fine for Caps. The last star we had here was Ziggy, and guess what, he got us into the playoffs and gave us a chance every season, just live Kovi would.

We need that star player in LA. Us fans want it, the NHL needs it and who the **** wouldn't be very excited about this???
No we don't. What the **** are you talking about. The whole reason why this franchise has sucked for so long is because owners, GM's have tried to keep up with the Showtime Lakers. It's never worked.

K17, is dead on. Kovalchuk has never won ****. He's even sucked balls on team Russia. He's been swept in every NHL playoff series.

Where the **** is your head? Never-Never Land? The truth is Kovlchuck can score highlight goals, but he's a ****** teammate. This is why Atlanta will cut it's losses and build around Bogosian.

And does anyone here expect that Kovalchuk will help us win this year? Are you serious? You're ****ing high if you think the Kings are serious cup contenders with or without Kovalchuk.

Now I ask why the hell would we give up quality players and picks like Moller or Simmonds for a moody little baby who hasn't won ****?

Edit: He was even swept when he was on a stacked Kazan team during the lockout. Please wake up people. We don't need an ego in the locker room.

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Old
01-21-2010, 05:08 PM
  #124
Peter Sidorkiewicz
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Originally Posted by JT8888 View Post
Esposito was not highly regarded like Schenn
Schenn was picked 5th overall and Esposito 20th
True that but Atlanta wants more for Kovalchuk than what they got for Hossa. There is also a more emphasis on quality in any proposal (given the thrashers are striving for the playoffs) than quantity.

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Old
01-21-2010, 05:12 PM
  #125
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No we don't. What the **** are you talking about. The whole reason why this franchise has sucked for so long is because owners, GM's have tried to keep up with the Showtime Lakers. It's never worked.

K17, is dead on. Kovalchuk has never won ****. He's even sucked balls on team Russia. He's been swept in every NHL playoff series.

Where the **** is your head? Never-Never Land? The truth is Kovlchuck can score highlight goals, but he's a ****** teammate. This is why Atlanta will cut it's losses and build around Bogosian.

And does anyone here expect that Kovalchuk will help us win this year? Are you serious? You're ****ing high if you think the Kings are serious cup contenders with or without Kovalchuk.

Now I ask why the hell would we give up quality players and picks like Moller or Simmonds for a moody little baby who hasn't won ****?
Qaulity players like Moller and Simmonds? They have proven how much so far? I like Moller and Simmer, but this is assinine if you think they are more valuable than someone like Kovy.

I'm sorry but I 100% disagree with you. Will Kovy help win the cup this year? no. would he help make the playoffs? hell yes he would. Put a decent team around Kovy and watch what happens....

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