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Old
01-21-2010, 06:53 PM
  #201
Giant Moo
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Originally Posted by surshot View Post
Riiight preview mags. Your an excellent debater. lets look at the roster with players who have missed games in red.

Penner-Horcoff-Hemsky
JFJ-
Gagner-Brule
Stone-Comrie
-O'sullivan
Moreau-Cogliano-Stortini
Nilsson-Pouliot-Pisani

Souray-Gilbert
Smid-Visnovsky
Grebeshkov-Staois

Strudwick

Khabibulin
JDD

It should be no surprise that we are where we are in the standings given the injurys. And its not that far fetched we would be atleast challenging for a playoff spot if the injury's were not so rampant. BTW even if we finished 11th in the conferance chances are we would be challenging for a playoff spot. Just go back and look at the previous seasons and look at the difference in points between 8th and 11th. Also this year we are on pace to break our record and the NHL record for man games lost.
In all fairness, if you did that for every team, by the end of the year each roster would look just as red.

And while it's clear our team was hurt by injuries, it doesn't excuse their current lack of play now. Sure, they're missing some key players like Hemsky and Khabby. But does that mean is excused from looking like they care night after night?

I predicted an 11th place finish, and if we had a "league average" amount of injuries, I think that's exactly where they'd be right now.

Saying we were a playoff-bound team is really misleading. At best we were never anything more than a bubble team and have been ever since the lockout. Fundamental change is needed or we're going to experience Groundhog Day forever. In that sense, I think finishing 15th would be the best thing that could happen to this team in a long time. There's a lot of organizational chaff that should get separated from the wheat before next season.

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01-21-2010, 06:55 PM
  #202
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I don't see how the claim that a healthy Oilers team would have challenged for 8th place in anyway contradicts JTS or anyone else who says the team was crap from the get go. A fully healthy Oilers is no better than mediocre to poor.

As for their early record, it's amazing what small sample sizes will do to skew perception. Off the hop they won games they had no business winning and lost a couple games they shouldn't have, which tends to happen to mediocre to poor teams.

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01-21-2010, 06:58 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Narnia View Post
If they have so much depth, why aren't the Red Wings in a playoff spot. Injuries do matter. NY Islanders had the most man-games lost to injury last season. They finished dead last. The Oilers lead the NHL in man-games lost to injury and the 'Canes are #3. The two teams are fighting for the right to draft #1.
Teams without NHL depth get decimated by injuries and that's why you're seeing the Oilers and Canes flat lining.

Teams like Detroit can weather the storm and stay close until their injured players come back.

The Oilers started the season with 5-7 players who should be in the AHL and, when they lose a couple of veterans, they're hooped.

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01-21-2010, 07:09 PM
  #204
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I love Little Fury's take.

When it comes to Shawn Horcoff injures are the main reason for his struggles.

When it comes to the teams record injures make no difference.

Classic.

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01-21-2010, 07:33 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Smooth Skating View Post
I love Little Fury's take.

When it comes to Shawn Horcoff injures are the main reason for his struggles.

When it comes to the teams record injures make no difference.

Classic.
That's a pretty pathetic showing, even measured by your standards. First, not only have I not even mentioned Horcoff here (and I have no recollection of talking about his injuries anywhere: if you can find such a thing, fill yer boot) I most definitely never claimed injuries don't make a difference. Quite the opposite, actually: clearly they make the difference between an 8th to 11th place team and a 15th place team. The common thread is neither team is any damn good.

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01-21-2010, 07:42 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Narnia View Post
Injuries do matter. NY Islanders had the most man-games lost to injury last season. They finished dead last. The Oilers lead the NHL in man-games lost to injury and the 'Canes are #3. The two teams are fighting for the right to draft #1.
Nobody ever gives injuries enough credit for ruining a season. Last year Colorado was decimated by injuries, so their resurgence this year shouldnt be too suprising. They've almost scored as many goals so far this season than all of last season.

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01-21-2010, 07:46 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
In all fairness, if you did that for every team, by the end of the year each roster would look just as red.

And while it's clear our team was hurt by injuries, it doesn't excuse their current lack of play now. Sure, they're missing some key players like Hemsky and Khabby. But does that mean is excused from looking like they care night after night?

I predicted an 11th place finish, and if we had a "league average" amount of injuries, I think that's exactly where they'd be right now.

Saying we were a playoff-bound team is really misleading. At best we were never anything more than a bubble team and have been ever since the lockout. Fundamental change is needed or we're going to experience Groundhog Day forever. In that sense, I think finishing 15th would be the best thing that could happen to this team in a long time. There's a lot of organizational chaff that should get separated from the wheat before next season.
So if we would be 11th if we had a league average injuries, we would be a playoff team if we were, say, in the top 10 of least amount of man games lost?

And I agree that finishing last would be a great thing for the team. Having a good draft pick, plus getting our players back from injury would help enormously next year, just like in my Colorado example in my post above.

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01-21-2010, 07:49 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by SlowFreshOil View Post
6-2-1 start. Yep, they were crap from day one.... They never had time to gel as a new team. Sorry, but those are FACTS.

And Bob doesn't do that to his callers. Bob is one of the ONLY guys that will read emails critical of him. He's one of the only guys that takes callers who he knows are about to run him.

I don't have rocks in my head because I thought they were a team that would compete for a playoff spot. I didn't think they'd win the division, but I thought they had the pieces in place to be a better team.

And sorry, but if you honestly think that Roli is better in net that Khabbi, you might be the one with rocks in your melon.
The oilers have had brief fast starts in the past, means nothing at game 70 in a season.

Roloson played almost as well as a goalie can play last year. We werre outshot 75% of the time. The best we could hope is that the Bulin wall was as good as roli last year. He wasn't when he played and then he got hurt. A healthy Bulin would mean a few more wins but not the number we would need to be in contention.

In the end that is what it has been all about for the oilers for the last 15 years eh? We might be good enough to compete for 8th place.

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01-21-2010, 07:50 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Cawz View Post
So if we would be 11th if we had a league average injuries, we would be a playoff team if we were, say, in the top 10 of least amount of man games lost?

And I agree that finishing last would be a great thing for the team. Having a good draft pick, plus getting our players back from injury would help enormously next year, just like in my Colorado example in my post above.
It's not linear like that.

If the Oilers had zero man games lost to injury they likely wouldn't be a playoff team.

They lack the talent of any team currently in a playoff position with the possible exception of Phoenix but even the Coyotes are better balanced.

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01-21-2010, 07:51 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by surshot View Post
Riiight preview mags. Your an excellent debater. lets look at the roster with players who have missed games in red.

Penner-Horcoff-Hemsky
JFJ-
Gagner-Brule
Stone-Comrie
-O'sullivan
Moreau-Cogliano-Stortini
Nilsson-Pouliot-Pisani

Souray-Gilbert
Smid-Visnovsky
Grebeshkov-Staois

Strudwick

Khabibulin
JDD

It should be no surprise that we are where we are in the standings given the injurys. And its not that far fetched we would be atleast challenging for a playoff spot if the injury's were not so rampant. BTW even if we finished 11th in the conferance chances are we would be challenging for a playoff spot. Just go back and look at the previous seasons and look at the difference in points between 8th and 11th. Also this year we are on pace to break our record and the NHL record for man games lost.
Please do your break down for every team in the league. Players that play all 82 are the exception not the rule.

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01-21-2010, 07:52 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
In all fairness, if you did that for every team, by the end of the year each roster would look just as red.

And while it's clear our team was hurt by injuries, it doesn't excuse their current lack of play now. Sure, they're missing some key players like Hemsky and Khabby. But does that mean is excused from looking like they care night after night?

I predicted an 11th place finish, and if we had a "league average" amount of injuries, I think that's exactly where they'd be right now.

Saying we were a playoff-bound team is really misleading. At best we were never anything more than a bubble team and have been ever since the lockout. Fundamental change is needed or we're going to experience Groundhog Day forever. In that sense, I think finishing 15th would be the best thing that could happen to this team in a long time. There's a lot of organizational chaff that should get separated from the wheat before next season.
In all fairness. our team looked like that in November. The arguing over where they would finish is useless because nobody knows as they were not even close to being healthy to make a proper evaluation. People can say what they want but they would be much better then they are know and no one knows how much better they would of been. I still have no problems with someone saying they would of challenged for a playoff spot as its a vague answer that does not mean they are or there not going to make the playoffs. For those that are declaring they know that they would have missed or made it are just pretending and its just pure speculation as no one knows how much better they would be. People just need to stop pretending they know because they do not.

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01-21-2010, 07:58 PM
  #212
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We are 19 points out of a playoff spot, this taking into account that other teams have had injuires as well. I think it's fair to think that the injuries would not make up for that deficit. Especially when you actually look at how the healthy players have played.

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01-21-2010, 08:06 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
It's not linear like that.

If the Oilers had zero man games lost to injury they likely wouldn't be a playoff team.
I absolutely disagree. This team has shown that it can be in the hunt for the playoffs when healthy, but they have only had a handful of games that all their key members were playing. How many games in the past few years have Hemsky, Visnovsky and Souray all been healthy at the same time? Its always one of our top weapons being out, so we've never really seen the team that has been assembled.

The Oilers are a bubble team that has been decimated by injuries. But looking at the standing this year, almost every other team besides SJ and Chitown are playing like bubble teams.

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01-21-2010, 08:07 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
We are 19 points out of a playoff spot, this taking into account that other teams have had injuires as well. I think it's fair to think that the injuries would not make up for that deficit. Especially when you actually look at how the healthy players have played.
Its not fair to say that at all. It was only a month ago that we were 4 points out. But we have lost games at an alarming rate and people acting like its not the injury's need to give there head a shake. Just stop pretending you know when its obvious nobody knows.

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01-21-2010, 08:11 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Smooth Skating View Post
I love Little Fury's take.

When it comes to Shawn Horcoff injures are the main reason for his struggles.

When it comes to the teams record injures make no difference.

Classic.
Cognitive Dissonance is the Prime Directive for the HorCult.

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01-21-2010, 08:15 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Cawz View Post
So if we would be 11th if we had a league average injuries, we would be a playoff team if we were, say, in the top 10 of least amount of man games lost?
I don't think there's a linear relationship there like you're assuming.

I think if we had the league least injuries we're back on the bubble at 8th. The smallest breeze and we're knocked down like a straw hut.

Quote:
And I agree that finishing last would be a great thing for the team. Having a good draft pick, plus getting our players back from injury would help enormously next year, just like in my Colorado example in my post above.
Getting Hemsky back will be huge. I'm not planning on seeing Khabby ever back, though. But even bigger will be divesting ourselves of any or all of Moreau, Horcoff, Staios and Gilbert, whether it's trades or waivers. It's time to clean out the gutters.

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01-21-2010, 08:17 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by surshot View Post
In all fairness. our team looked like that in November. The arguing over where they would finish is useless because nobody knows as they were not even close to being healthy to make a proper evaluation. People can say what they want but they would be much better then they are know and no one knows how much better they would of been. I still have no problems with someone saying they would of challenged for a playoff spot as its a vague answer that does not mean they are or there not going to make the playoffs. For those that are declaring they know that they would have missed or made it are just pretending and its just pure speculation as no one knows how much better they would be. People just need to stop pretending they know because they do not.
I don't think anyone's pretending to tell the future. But for some of those predictions -- like finishing out of the playoffs -- I think they were very safe bets. Not guarantees.

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01-21-2010, 08:29 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
I don't think anyone's pretending to tell the future. But for some of those predictions -- like finishing out of the playoffs -- I think they were very safe bets. Not guarantees.
That is all i am saying. And yes there are lots of pretenders pretending to know.

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01-21-2010, 08:39 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by surshot View Post
That is all i am saying. And yes there are lots of pretenders pretending to know.
Well You-Know-Who would factor in there, if you don't mind "predictions" with more stipulations than a cell phone contract, but I think people here are generally even-keeled about that kind of soothsaying.

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01-21-2010, 08:43 PM
  #220
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I absolutely disagree. This team has shown that it can be in the hunt for the playoffs when healthy, but they have only had a handful of games that all their key members were playing. How many games in the past few years have Hemsky, Visnovsky and Souray all been healthy at the same time? Its always one of our top weapons being out, so we've never really seen the team that has been assembled.

The Oilers are a bubble team that has been decimated by injuries. But looking at the standing this year, almost every other team besides SJ and Chitown are playing like bubble teams.
Nah. Vancouver had Daniel, Demitra, Luongo and others out for extended periods and hung in there.

Detroit had a raft of injuries and hung in there.

When injuries hit the Oilers folded like a Taiwanese lawn chair.

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01-21-2010, 09:39 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
I don't think there's a linear relationship there like you're assuming.

I think if we had the league least injuries we're back on the bubble at 8th. The smallest breeze and we're knocked down like a straw hut.
I think if we had the league's least injuries, we're a relativly secure playoff team. We've been on the other side of the injury scale for so long that its tough to envision, but at the start of the year we looked impressive. Looking back on some of those GDTs, everyone was basically in agreement that we were looking good while healthy.

The problem is that we've never been hit by the smallest breeze. We've always had one of our core players out for a significant amount of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
Getting Hemsky back will be huge. I'm not planning on seeing Khabby ever back, though. But even bigger will be divesting ourselves of any or all of Moreau, Horcoff, Staios and Gilbert, whether it's trades or waivers. It's time to clean out the gutters.
We'll see on Khabi. I dont disagree with anything you said here.

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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Nah. Vancouver had Daniel, Demitra, Luongo and others out for extended periods and hung in there.

Detroit had a raft of injuries and hung in there.

When injuries hit the Oilers folded like a Taiwanese lawn chair.
Neither had as much injury problems as the Oilers. Luongo has played in 42 of 49 games so far this year, 7th most starts in the NHL. Thats not an extended injury period. He's 4 games away from leading the NHL in starts. And for the record, Vancouver dropped down to 10 place with Sedin and Luongo out.

But yeah, the Oilers folded. There's no arguing with that. No-body stepped up. The reality of the situation is what we are looking at right now, which is not pretty.

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