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For the "blow it up now" folks -- Lundqvist

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Old
01-24-2010, 05:27 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by nyr1994 View Post
I love how the two games where the rangers scored 14 goals everyone was all excited, claiming the rangers had enough depth to win a cup. We have one bad game and everyone wants to trade away the whole roster. We just have to stay patient and wait. We have two star players, lots of young talent, promising young defenders, and only a couple veteran underachievers. Sather will never trade lundqvist unless malkin/crosby/ao is coming back in return and CJ is developed by then.
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Everyone? Hardly. A very select few, perhaps. I can't remember seeing any such post at all. But of course alot of ppl will get happy as hell to see 14 goals in 2 games, when that's what we usually produce in a month.

As for the topic, in a "blow it up" strategy, you usually keep the core, like Anaheim did when they reformed their team for a cup. Now, before anyone yells "he said cup!", no, we won't do what Anaheim did, because our core is alot smaller than it should be. I don't think a blowout is needed though.

Fire $ather, get rid of (or wait for to expire): Drury's, Redden's and Rosie's contracts. Possibly cut loose some others.


Last edited by Chimp: 01-24-2010 at 05:52 AM.
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01-24-2010, 05:42 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
Everyone? Hardly. A very select few, perhaps. I can't remember seeing any such post at all. But of course alot of ppl will get happy as hell to see 14 goals in 2 games, when that's what we usually produce in a month.

As for the topic, in a "blow it up" strategy, you usually keep the core, like Anaheim did when they reformed their team for a cup. Now, before anyone yells "he said cup!", no, we won't do what Anaheim did, because our core is alot smaller than it should be. I don't think a blowout is needed though.

Fire $ather, get rid of (or wait for to expire): Drury's, Redden's and Rosie's contracts.
i would add kotalik and brashear to that list.

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01-24-2010, 05:44 AM
  #28
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trade lundqvist ?

no, never

you don't trade a game stealing netminder

see mike richter ....

worth every penny on the cap

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01-24-2010, 06:00 AM
  #29
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i would add kotalik and brashear to that list.
Yeah, I had repressed we even had those left. Mental defense I guess.

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01-24-2010, 06:00 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
no, thats if you buy him out.

i dont want to buy him out. i just want to banish him to the minors. if you do that, the cap hit goes off the books.
Did his deal include a NMC?

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01-24-2010, 06:31 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by jediprakNYR View Post

I honestly don't know how any GM can get themselves out of a situation that Sather created, especially in a salary capped league. The yankees were able to finagle and take the hit of Carl Pavano. But we can't take those humongous hits. We will have to stomach this for 5-6 years and pray that our farm team and our draft picks produces the likes of Sidney Crosby, AO, and others. There's no way around this and we have to stomach this fact rather than come up with all these hypotheticals that won't work, especially if Sather is here, no GM in the league is privy to his charm now to take on those monstrosities of contracts.
Sather got rid of the Gomez contract where everyone said it was impossible (then signing Gaborik!! with the saved cap space).... I have a feeling Sather will once again do some creative things to fix some salary cap issues....

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01-24-2010, 06:38 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post

Then, you go into next season with something like...

Prospal Dubinsky Gaborik
Kovalchuk Anisimov Callahan
Grachev Stepan Lisin
Byer Boyle Avery

Staal MDZ
Gilroy Sanguinetti/Sauer/McDonagh
Sanguinetti/Sauer/McDonagh Girardi


and you be patient.

you understand that the team as I posted will NOT compete for at least 1 year, more than likely 2 years. But you don't panic, you dont make any trades, you dont sign any free agents, you let the kids learn from the superstars, and let them make their mistakes. You keep letting Gordie Clark work his magic, and understand that in 2 years the Rangers will likely be where they are now, barely competing for a playoff spot, and in 3 years they should be one of the better teams in the league.

Kids take time to develop, even now we have an incredibly young roster...theres not all that much to blow up. We arent the Rangers of old with no prospects and a TON of underachieving vets. We are quite the opposite, with a tone of prospects, and a few underachieving vets.
I dunno... I see a team with Kovalchuck, Gaborik and Lundy somehow competing for a playoff.... Not sure why I say this but these (3) guys are competitors who want to win...

The concern I do see is you listed basically most of the Rangers prospects... Who the heck knows if they all are going to be quality NHL players at all.... At this moment, they are just prospects..

Wow. I guess I just contradicted myself here... lol...

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01-24-2010, 08:21 AM
  #33
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I'd have no problem dealing Lundqvist for Ovechkin, and here's why: It's been shown over and over that goalies who are merely "good" can win Cups. Chris Osgood is the single best example of this, but there are plenty of others. Likewise, superior goalies are knocked out consistently by lesser goalies. (See Lundqvist the last two years. He was better than both Fleury and Varlamov, but out he went.)

TEAMS win Cups far, far, far more frequently than great goalies, and it's easier to find merely good goalies for your team than it is forwards of AO's caliber.

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01-24-2010, 08:40 AM
  #34
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I don't think there are immediate remedies without taking on additional problems. If you try to move Rozsival, you are most likely going to have to take back another salary. Drury has an NMC, so he's going nowhere. The intelligent thing to do would be to move Prospal, Higgins and Girardi. If the Ottawa-NYI deal last year was any indication of market value, I would think the Rangers could get a late #1 for a Girardi-Higgins package. Prospal could bring back something similar to the Antropov deal. If you can find a taker for Kotalik, great. I think you have to ride out the Rozsival and Drury deals, which is why I buyout Redden; yes you have a cap hit of $1.9 million or so the next two years, and the hit goes up to approximately $3.4 million. However, I believe you are more likely to see Dolan approve paying only two-thirds of Redden's remaining salary, then the full amount to sit in the minors. And, while the hit jumps up in years three and four, both Drury and Rozsival are off the books, giving the Rangers a total of $15.1 million potential cap space in those years, even with the Redden buyout.

Unfortunately, we are looking at more patience for at least two more years. Which would also allow for the further development of the likes of Dubinsky, Staal, Callahan, MDZ and Anisimov, while potentially integrating Sanguinetti, Grachev, McDonagh, Stepan, Weise and eventually Kreider, Werek and perhaps this year's #1 pick.

There is no short term answer.

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01-24-2010, 08:45 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
There is no short term answer.
Quoted for truth.

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01-24-2010, 08:46 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Quoted for truth.
It all goes back to that stupid day in July of 2007...signing both Gomez and Drury to disastrous contracts.

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01-24-2010, 09:05 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
It all goes back to that stupid day in July of 2007...signing both Gomez and Drury to disastrous contracts.
No. It all goes back to the day that Sather signed his own disastrous contract.

The overvaluing of some of the current assets is often mindboggling to me. For example, Callahan is a good player to have but he is a good 3rd line player. Girardi is very far from being tough to replace. Prospal is an on-again, off-again player of moderate skills. And so on.

There's Lundqvist.

At the next level is Gaborik, because of the need to assume he will remain healthy.

At the next level is Staal, and while I like him a lot he is not yet an elite defenseman, just a very good one. Because he is young he might become more.

After that there is nothing of definite major value so I'm unclear what everyone thinks is so great and that if we just remove some bad contracts that the Cup is on the way.

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Old
01-24-2010, 09:07 AM
  #38
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Isn't this topic discussed at least once a week? Blow it up and do what?

Buying Redden out is not the answer. 8 years? Pray to whatever god you believe in that the NHL and NHLPA agree to another compliance buyout period in the new CBA. There will be a new CBA. Either after 10-11 or 11-12,there will be a new CBA. They aren't going to keep extending the CBA like they did with the 1995 CBA. Rather wait 1 year or 2 than get stuck on the hook for 8 years of dead cap space.

Rozsival's salary dips. Brooks and LeBrun have mentioned Rozsival's contract structure in the past week. If teams are supposedly going to be lining up for Souray who has 2 years remaining at $9 million in remaining salary with a $5.4 million cap hit,then what would Rozsival with 2 years at $7 million and $5 million cap hit draw in the open market?Souray isn't putting up numbers he recorded in Montreal.

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01-24-2010, 09:18 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
It all goes back to that stupid day in July of 2007...signing both Gomez and Drury to disastrous contracts.
I'd say it goes back earlier. Decisions were made early in Sather's tenure that made it more necessary to sign Drury and Gomez because there was nothing drafted/acquired that made it unnecessary to acquire mercenaries throuhg free agency.

One easy place to look is the 03 draft. Replace Jessiman with any of Parise, Getzlaf, Richards, or Perry and one of Drury/Gomez is not needed. Scratch one major albatross contract.

But I'd argue the problem runs deeper. Decisions like those to acquire Lindros, Bure, and Holik eliminated picks and forced us to select later in drafts, thus denying us the opportunity to acquire the players that would have made Drury and Gomez unnecessary.

For instance, the Rangers finished with 78 points in 02-03. That tied them with Phoenix, but the Rangers had one more win. As a result, the Rangers had the eleventh pick that year instead of the tenth (Phoenix's, held by Philly). Eliminate any ONE of Lindros, Bure, and Holik, and this team has the opportunity to take Carter.

We can go on this way, but my point is simple. The problems with this team didn't start on a couple days in the summer of 2007. Those days were the end result of a systemic organizational failure that began in Smith's era and were not rectified under Sather. Pointing to two signings is too simplistic and narrow, IMO.

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01-24-2010, 09:54 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
I'd say it goes back earlier. Decisions were made early in Sather's tenure that made it more necessary to sign Drury and Gomez because there was nothing drafted/acquired that made it unnecessary to acquire mercenaries throuhg free agency.

One easy place to look is the 03 draft. Replace Jessiman with any of Parise, Getzlaf, Richards, or Perry and one of Drury/Gomez is not needed. Scratch one major albatross contract.

But I'd argue the problem runs deeper. Decisions like those to acquire Lindros, Bure, and Holik eliminated picks and forced us to select later in drafts, thus denying us the opportunity to acquire the players that would have made Drury and Gomez unnecessary.

For instance, the Rangers finished with 78 points in 02-03. That tied them with Phoenix, but the Rangers had one more win. As a result, the Rangers had the eleventh pick that year instead of the tenth (Phoenix's, held by Philly). Eliminate any ONE of Lindros, Bure, and Holik, and this team has the opportunity to take Carter.

We can go on this way, but my point is simple. The problems with this team didn't start on a couple days in the summer of 2007. Those days were the end result of a systemic organizational failure that began in Smith's era and were not rectified under Sather. Pointing to two signings is too simplistic and narrow, IMO.
No argument that the underlying causes pre-date that day. The fact is, the only asset still around prior to the sell-off of 2004 is Lundqvist. However, the organization appeared to regain its foothold after the lockout. And, while additional mistakes were made...Cullen, Ozolinsh, Ward, to name a few, they were not roster strangling moves that altered the construction of the roster. However, to lavish not one but two secondary players with contracts that, while the market had dictated their value, their respective play had not, was what set up this franchise in the clusterf*** they are now in. I understood not wanting to tie up money in Nylander, but, there were cheaper, and less restrictive alternatives available. Those contracts not only constricted the cap, but alienated the best player on this team, Jagr. Then, compound that with the additional bad contracts of Redden and Rozsival.

Now, where you and I more likely disagree is the state of this team's organizational depth, where I believe there a re quite a few good players on the way, and in the signing of Gaborik. However, I will say that other than the good fortune of disposing of Gomez for a potentially very good young defensive prospect in McDonagh, ( Higgins was a trial IMO), and having Prospal fall into their laps, very little this off-season was done properly.

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01-24-2010, 10:09 AM
  #41
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...Blow it up and do what?...
That was exactly the point of posting this thread, other than some sarcasm directed at the loudest "blow it up" people. It's really easy to sit there and play armchair GM and think some teams are really going to take a Redden or a Drury off the Rangers hands without having to sacrifice a piece that's needed for a "rebuild". Sather is a moron, but don't you think he realizes this?

In order to do what some here propose, the Rangers aren't sniffing the playoffs for 3 to 4 seasons. By that time, Hank MAY be past his prime, and Gaborik WILL be past his prime. You have to HOPE Del Zotto and Staal are as good as you think they'll be, AND Stepan, Krieder, Sanguinetti, et. al. are NHL players. You also have to hope that the drafting is decent, because with Hank and Gaborik on the team, the Rangers aren't finishing last, they'll finish 11th, just like during the dark ages.

And just because you think you're building for the Cup, doesn't mean you'll win it, or even come near it. The San Jose Sharks are consistently one of the best teams in the league. Come playoff time, they're gone in the second round. The Senators? Another poster child for a "build" only to royally FAIL. The Caps and Blackhawks? Haven't won a thing yet. Even the Devils haven't been any better than the Rangers since the lockout.

I'm not saying go out at the deadline and rent some overpriced "talent" for a playoff run that probably won't be there. What I am saying though, is don't kill a team that's probably going to make the playoffs, and sacrifice that for a few years of sucking, on the off chance that "prospects" and players still in middle school will be as good as advertised.

I'm also of the opinion that Sather hasn't necessarily brought in the wrong players, he's just severely overpaid for them. Redden isn't a bad 5th defenseman. He's being paid as a superstar though. Drury is a decent checking center. He's being paid as a 1st line scorer. Holik wasn't a bad 3rd liner either. You get my point. And Bure was a gamble. If it paid off, we wouldn't be having this argument. Now Gomez was an AWFUL signing. There's a case of EVERYONE overrating him because he was semi-successful in a system. Getting rid of Orr and signing Brashear was idiotic.

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01-24-2010, 11:02 AM
  #42
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Blow it up. That means keep the obvious guys, sell the ones you can, but don't try to aquire anyone else who will cost assets and artificially bouy this team up in the standings. The problem with this team is they always try to hit the home run. There is no one guy who's going to turn this around, it is a process. The pitiful lack of jam on this team is an issue that can be addressed. Maybe Nick Boynton and/or Derek Boogaard or Shawn Thornton come in this offseason. All this talk of Kovalchuk in my mind is pointless because we still won't have a center for the line. Maybe we take a reasonable, short term offer to Saku Koivu. Complementary players, "base hits" are what we should be looking for right now. Players that can fill a role short term but are not an albatross around the neck of this team, and can bridge a gap until a player from withing this organization is ready to fill that role. The core of this team has to be built from within.

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01-24-2010, 11:39 AM
  #43
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no, thats if you buy him out.

i dont want to buy him out. i just want to banish him to the minors. if you do that, the cap hit goes off the books.
oh, oops.

But, as jas has rightfully pointed out, it is doubtful that Dolan would pay full amount for the guy to play in the minors.

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01-24-2010, 11:54 AM
  #44
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I really don't understand the "blow it up" concept. People are so adamant about getting guys like Drury, Rozsival, and Redden out of here because they're "Horrible" and are "the main reasons why we suck," but why would you want to get rid of the anchors around your neck when you're trying to drown yourself? Seems counter productive to me.

You don't "blow it up" and retain Gaborik and Lundqvist.

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01-24-2010, 12:02 PM
  #45
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I really don't understand the "blow it up" concept. People are so adamant about getting guys like Drury, Rozsival, and Redden out of here because they're "Horrible" and are "the main reasons why we suck," but why would you want to get rid of the anchors around your neck when you're trying to drown yourself? Seems counter productive to me.

You don't "blow it up" and retain Gaborik and Lundqvist.
I think that everyone has his/her own interpretation of the term.

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01-24-2010, 03:31 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I really don't understand the "blow it up" concept. People are so adamant about getting guys like Drury, Rozsival, and Redden out of here because they're "Horrible" and are "the main reasons why we suck," but why would you want to get rid of the anchors around your neck when you're trying to drown yourself? Seems counter productive to me.

You don't "blow it up" and retain Gaborik and Lundqvist.
which is why you cant really blow this team up, what you can do is build it to be a long term success by holding on to assets that are going to help you both short and long term, and getting rid of assets that arent, even if it means paying them their full salary to play in Hartford.

Wasn't the Rangers salary hit something like 90+ million dollars during the early 2000's? Dolan didnt mind paying those people way more than hes paying now, and wasnt even getting playoff money out of it. Sending Redden to play in Hartford is chump change for him.

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01-24-2010, 03:34 PM
  #47
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Yes, I would trade Lundqvist, only because I really like him and firmly believe he has no shot of even sniffing the ECF with this franchise. Henrik is an all world goaltender that deserves better than Sather can/will give. Sather will not ever be fired.

But since this franchise will never truely rebuild (there's too much $$$ to be made) this would never happen. Best we can hope for is that our farm is really truely legit.

And for the record. I guess I'm in the "blow it up" camp, but lets get some things straight. "Blow it up" to me means ridding ourselves of the crap, trimming the fat if you will. Everyone here knows what players I'm talking about.

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01-24-2010, 03:46 PM
  #48
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Yes, I would trade Lundqvist, only because I really like him and firmly believe he has no shot of even sniffing the ECF with this franchise. Henrik is an all world goaltender that deserves better than Sather can/will give. Sather will not ever be fired.

But since this franchise will never truely rebuild (there's too much $$$ to be made) this would never happen. Best we can hope for is that our farm is really truely legit.

And for the record. I guess I'm in the "blow it up" camp, but lets get some things straight. "Blow it up" to me means ridding ourselves of the crap, trimming the fat if you will. Everyone here knows what players I'm talking about.
this team has yet to trade a prospect of consequence, and has infused the following players from their system into the pro team.

Lundqvist
Staal
MDZ
Dubinsky
Callahan
Anisimov

They have also developed Nigel Dawes, Lauri Korpikoski, Dominic Moore, and Petr Prucha into regular every day NHLers over the past 5 years.

They also have 2 undrafted players who they signed, and brought in with Girardi and Gilroy

They also have probably a backup goalie now who made his NHL debut as a Ranger (draft day trade) in Ocho Cinco

Also it's highly likely that 3 of Sanguinetti, Sauer, Grachev, and McDonagh see NHL playing time next year if not make the squad straight out of camp.


They are rebuilding on the fly, and really if you look at it objective, doing so pretty well.

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01-24-2010, 03:54 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I really don't understand the "blow it up" concept. People are so adamant about getting guys like Drury, Rozsival, and Redden out of here because they're "Horrible" and are "the main reasons why we suck," but why would you want to get rid of the anchors around your neck when you're trying to drown yourself? Seems counter productive to me.
I agree and I think it's a pointless discussion anyway. Their contracts are going nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
You don't "blow it up" and retain Gaborik and Lundqvist.
I disagree. They have a fair supporting cast now, and the team is still below .500. Strip off more assets (like Vinnie, Girardi, and Higgins), drop Gaborik from 21:00 to 18:00 minutes per night, and give Lundmark more nights off. Do all that and this team might well finish fifth worst in the league.


Last edited by dedalus: 01-24-2010 at 04:00 PM.
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01-24-2010, 03:56 PM
  #50
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This is my realistic dream team for next season

Byfuglien Dubinsky Gaborik
Avery AA C. Armstrong (UFA)
Byers Drury Callahan
Tootoo (UFA) Boyle Ortmeyer (UFA) having a good season in SJ, very well may resign with them
Voros

Staal DZ
Redden Sanguinetti/Sauer/McD
Gilroy Sanguinetti/Sauer/McD
John Scott (UFA)

Anyone not in the lineup was traded!

ps. If Jack Johnson ever was/is/becomes truely available we need to go hard after him.

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