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The huge trouble at depth (why we suck)

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Old
01-24-2010, 12:09 PM
  #1
Chimp
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The huge trouble at depth (why we suck)

Ok, so let's try to make an evalutation of the roster. Let's take the roster from last night. Huggybear and Kotalik don't count. They don't play for a reason.

I mean look at this crap. We're at 2010 and we have this to show for it? Let's calculate the depth loss we have, by putting a - for each step above their limits the players are placed and a + if they are playing at a level beneath their limits. I can give some extra + for the superstars.

1st line
Vinny Prospal (A): Mercenary, albeit a pretty ok one. Borderline 1st line material, would be great on a 2nd line. -0.5
Brandon Dubinsky: Borderline 2nd liner/ 3rd liner. -1.5
Marian Gaborik: Superstar. +1
Total: -1

2nd line
Chris Drury (C): Borderline 2nd liner (when he's actually good)/ Solid 3rd liner. -1
Erik Christensen: Multiple waiver pickup. 3rd liner I guess. -1
Ryan Callahan (A): Solid 3rd liner. -1
Total: -3(-4)

3rd line
Chris Higgins: Solid 3rd liner, but a 4th liner as he's playing, should possibly be waived if we had someone else. -1
Artem Anisimov: 3rd liner. +/-0
Enver Lisin: Pure trash. He's got speed, nothing else, that's it. -1
Total: -2(-6)

4th line
Sean Avery: Solid 3rd liner, but he's not playing as one. Talented, but has nothing to show for it. +1
Brian Boyle: Ok 4th liner, nothing more. +/-0
Aaron Voros: Not an NHL:er, but since his competitor is Huggybear, I guess he is. At least he has guts and heart. -1
Total: +/-0(-6)

1st pair
Marc Staal: Borderline 1st pairing/ 2nd pairing -0.5
Michal Rozsival: Borderline 2nd pairing/ 3rd pairing -1.5
Total: -2(-8)

2nd pair
Michael Del Zotto: Solid 2nd pairing, questionable defensively. +/-0
Dan Girardi: Solid 3rd pairing, but not as he's playing. -1
Total: -1(-9)

3rd pair
Wade Redden: 3rd pair +/-0
Matt Gilroy: 3rd pair. +/-0
Total: +/-0(-9)

Goaltenders
Henrik Lundqvist: Superstar +1
Matt Zaba: So now we don't even have a backup? -1
Total: +/-0(-9)

So, we have a total quality in our lineup of -9(!). That basically means we have an equivalent of 9 players in the lineup, playing at a position they can't handle. No wonder this team is so terrible. No wonder we can't score, no wonder we can't perform on a consistent basis, because so many have to play over their normal level of performance for this team to play solid hockey.

No wonder Torts can't get them moving.

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01-24-2010, 12:38 PM
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SomebodySaveKreider
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This is a bit subjective, but overall spot on.

Not everyone has to be a superstar, but the lack of top end talent is pretty scary. It essentially ends with Marian Gaborik as far as the forwards go.

The lack of Centers has scared the crap out of me since even before the season began, and continues to scare me the most.

Drury has regressed, Dubinsky is showing that he's solid, but not a Number 1, and Anisimov just isn't ready for that type of role and responsibility yet.

I pray to just about every deity I can think of that Stepan pans out like we hope.

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01-24-2010, 12:44 PM
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ThirdEye
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To me the biggest offenders in terms of inability to add offense have been Drury, Higgins and Redden. If you take their careers into accounts, these guys should be on pace for at least two times, if not three times as many points. All three of them are having absolutely abysmal seasons. If these guys were playing up to their average career numbers we would be 6-10 points up in the standings, even with our schizophrenic defense.

I excluded Lisin because I didn't really expect much from him, and actually, he has brought even less to the table which is surprising. Sean Avery is also having a down year, but not as bad as the three above.

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01-24-2010, 12:44 PM
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Not to mention we're putting pressure and expectations on players we shouldn't be.

Like at this stage of his career we should not be pressuring dubi to a 1st liner

Our players are looking tired out there. Gabby looks worn out, and del zotto was looking tired last night.

I think we need to start benching these players in the 3rd period of the outcome of the game is already obvious (like down 5-0). Give the players who need rest some rest if the game's already lost, and have the lower lines just go out there and check the hell outta them. Why is gaborik even playing in the 3rd period last night? He's worn down enough as it is, stop playing him when the game's already useless.

Honestly, a 5-0/6-0 loss is about as embarassing as it gets. At least if they extend the lead to 10-0 you can at least laugh about it.

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01-24-2010, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdEye View Post
To me the biggest offenders in terms of inability to add offense have been Drury, Higgins and Redden. If you take their careers into accounts, these guys should be on pace for at least two times, if not three times as many points. All three of them are having absolutely abysmal seasons. If these guys were playing up to their average career numbers we would be 6-10 points up in the standings, even with our schizophrenic defense.

I excluded Lisin because I didn't really expect much from him, and actually, he has brought even less to the table which is surprising. Sean Avery is also having a down year, but not as bad as the three above.
Higgins boggles my mind the most. I wasn't expecting him this great 1st line sniper, but to at least get 25 - 30 goals, with 25 - 30 assists and be a solid player.

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01-24-2010, 12:57 PM
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Yea we are one of the least talented teams right now. I don't think we were that great to begin with and it's become a bigger problem because the guys who have shown talent in the NHL before like Drury, Higgins and Redden aren't playing as well as they have in recent years. Redden I understand just sucks. But coming into the season everyone expected more offense out of Drury and Higgins.

And I think the coaching staff has to shoulder some of the blame. I'm sure Torts was involved in some of the personnel moves we made last summer which haven't panned out. And I don't think our coaches are getting the most of the the players we have right now. I felt that was something Renney was always able to do well. Torts doesn't seem to be able to do it.

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01-24-2010, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by nyr7andcounting View Post
Yea we are one of the least talented teams right now. I don't think we were that great to begin with and it's become a bigger problem because the guys who have shown talent in the NHL before like Drury, Higgins and Redden aren't playing as well as they have in recent years. Redden I understand just sucks. But coming into the season everyone expected more offense out of Drury and Higgins.

And I think the coaching staff has to shoulder some of the blame. I'm sure Torts was involved in some of the personnel moves we made last summer which haven't panned out. And I don't think our coaches are getting the most of the the players we have right now. I felt that was something Renney was always able to do well. Torts doesn't seem to be able to do it.
Yup, Rangers are very untalented. I think Renney has had full realization of the fact last year, and with hindsight being 20/20, I can now see why Renney's team was so defensively oriented.

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01-24-2010, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BayAreaRanger View Post
Higgins boggles my mind the most. I wasn't expecting him this great 1st line sniper, but to at least get 25 - 30 goals, with 25 - 30 assists and be a solid player.
The guy misses the net more than anyone on the team.

I can still hear Sam..

"Higgins in...shoots wide."

"Higgins with a slapper...wide."

"Higgins on the rebound shoots wide."

No idea how he scored 25 goals.

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01-24-2010, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
The guy misses the net more than anyone on the team.

I can still hear Sam..

"Higgins in...shoots wide."

"Higgins with a slapper...wide."

"Higgins on the rebound shoots wide."

No idea how he scored 25 goals.
I don't either.

I feel like Girardi is the defenseman version of Higgins, just instead of the shots going wide, they never make it to the net.

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01-24-2010, 01:20 PM
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EventHorizon
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Excellent analysis Chimp.

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01-24-2010, 01:56 PM
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ThirdEye
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I don't either.

I feel like Girardi is the defenseman version of Higgins, just instead of the shots going wide, they never make it to the net.
Girardi actually has more points than Higgins this season

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01-24-2010, 02:03 PM
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Is anyone really surprised? I mean on offense this team is basically comprised of Gaborik, 1 or 2 second liners and 10 bottom 6 guys. We all knew this before the season started. What's the big news here? I've been saying all along we're a couple of years away from contending and I still believe that to be true.

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01-24-2010, 02:04 PM
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Just not a very talented roster compared to other teams, but I did think that the aggresive style Torts runs was going to bring out much more in certain players than it actually has. I also thought this team would have much more chemistry and be much more of a team than it is, but it's pretty clear that even if there aren't any problems like one guy not liking another guy, they aren't nearly as close as other teams post lockout era have been. That's the one thing we had going for us most years, at least we were together. Now? Just looks like 18 guys out there for a paycheck, regardless of how much that paycheck is, they ALL look like that's all they're there for anymore, minus a select few. Probably just the 4th line honestly. Even the younger guys are starting to look like they're just there for the ride, including Gilroy and Del Zotto.

I bet Gilroy's probably wishing he signed with the Islanders at this point.

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01-24-2010, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
Just not a very talented roster compared to other teams, but I did think that the aggresive style Torts runs was going to bring out much more in certain players than it actually has. I also thought this team would have much more chemistry and be much more of a team than it is, but it's pretty clear that even if there aren't any problems like one guy not liking another guy, they aren't nearly as close as other teams post lockout era have been. That's the one thing we had going for us most years, at least we were together. Now? Just looks like 18 guys out there for a paycheck, regardless of how much that paycheck is, they ALL look like that's all they're there for anymore, minus a select few. Probably just the 4th line honestly. Even the younger guys are starting to look like they're just there for the ride, including Gilroy and Del Zotto.

I bet Gilroy's probably wishing he signed with the Islanders at this point.
I hope that was the case. Gilroy is nothing special at all. One of the softest players i've ever seen.

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01-24-2010, 02:12 PM
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We have 1/3rd of a first line and 3 third lines.

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01-24-2010, 02:18 PM
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SomebodySaveKreider
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I also think we have a problem with team unity as well.

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01-24-2010, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BayAreaRanger View Post
I also think we have a problem with team unity as well.
I agree, when I watch them play every night I see a group of individuals and not a cohesive team.
I don't know if this has more to do with lack of character, or lack of chemistry.

Very good post Chimp, simple and to the point.
There are far too many players trying to fill roles that are above their current ability.
When Dubinsky is your number 1 center, that pretty much says it all.

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01-24-2010, 03:31 PM
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No idea how he scored 25 goals.
Saku Koivu, Alexei Kovalev, Andrei Kostitsyn

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01-24-2010, 03:39 PM
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Not bad, but I do think it's pretty subjective...I agree with most of it, but I believe that you're underrating Callahan and Dubinsky, possibly even Higgins (though I understand it's hard to make that argument given his struggles)...but, for Higgins, he has had a ton of chances, he just can't finish. This is no excuse, but I do think he is better than the stats he has put up, if that is worth anything.

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01-24-2010, 03:39 PM
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The list of reasons why this team is awful goes on and on and on and appears to be ever expanding, not unlike the universe itself.

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01-24-2010, 05:49 PM
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Chimp
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Originally Posted by Nemchinov13 View Post
Yup, Rangers are very untalented. I think Renney has had full realization of the fact last year, and with hindsight being 20/20, I can now see why Renney's team was so defensively oriented.
Renney wasn't a perfect coach, but he was a smart tactical coach, I have to give him that. He knew he had very little to work with and the only player he could rely on to carry the team, was Henrik Lundqvist. So he tried to maximize Henrik's chances of winning games for his team, which was basically his gameplan. The plan was essentially to hopefully, somehow score 2 goals and hopefully only allow 1, if Hank stood on his head. Which he did most of the time, when the team worked for him. Many games though, the team just fell apart, just as this year, because even then, too many had to do more than what could be asked of them. GREAT JOB $ATHER, WHAT A GREAT NHL TEAM YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR! One of the worst GMs ever, who I honestly don't know if he knows anything at all about evaluating hockey players, or utterly failing to surround himself with people who can do that essential job for him. Who would've known there's more to do and be responsible for, for GMs than chewing on unlit cigars and trying to fit x players under a cap room? Not $ather.

I think it even know, with the facts on the table right in front of you, is pretty hard for anyone to realize just how brutally untalented the last Rangers teams have been.

This was all in the open. It was basically what Renney also told the media when they asked the team what the overall strategy was. Constantly, Renney just said: "We try to minimize the opponent's chances, (because we're not good enough to carry the game ourselves)." Yes, it was really boring to watch, especially last year when the team was just as untalented as this one, except for that now we also have Prospal and Gaborik. But at least we have had one constant factor to always carry the teams: Henrik Lundqvist. Where would these Rangers teams have been if the Rangers organisation hadn't drafted him in the 7th round in 2004 or something like that? Jesus... the horror.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HVPOLARBEARS19 View Post
Not bad, but I do think it's pretty subjective...I agree with most of it, but I believe that you're underrating Callahan and Dubinsky, possibly even Higgins (though I understand it's hard to make that argument given his struggles)...but, for Higgins, he has had a ton of chances, he just can't finish. This is no excuse, but I do think he is better than the stats he has put up, if that is worth anything.
Sure, it's subjective, but the message is still clear: Way too many players on this team are expected to perform better than their overall ability. Kind of like your standard politician or public worker. You rise until you can't handle it anymore and then you stay put. To me, Dubi is not more than a 2nd/ 3rd line player if you ask of him to perform on a regular basis. I think it's pretty obvious by now he's not a consistent contributor when he is given the role and ice time that he currently has. Same with Callahan. They might become better player, but right now, they're not more than borderline 2nd/ solid 3rd line players.

If a player is very streaky and highly inconsistent, it's because a player is asked to perform over his average ability (when not counting in form). Great 1st liners almost always produce, average 1st liners don't. It's simplified, I know, but it's a pretty clear simplification.

Higgins has just been abysmal offensively and is starting to let his putrid confidence affect also his defensive play, which means he has nothing left to give to the team. If a player can't do crap offensively and is committing mistakes defensively, what the hell do you use him for? Filling up water bottles and opening the bench door? You can't trust him to do anything but hurt the team in any situations. I'm not trying to be cruel to him, I'm just saying as it is.


Last edited by Chimp: 01-24-2010 at 06:01 PM.
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01-24-2010, 05:56 PM
  #22
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Girardi actually has more points than Higgins this season
Add; Rozsival, Staal and DZ to the list.

You know you ****ing suck when D-men have more points than you, especially when you're supposed to be a scorer.

I can't wait to see that ****ing bum gone.

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01-24-2010, 06:26 PM
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I stopped reading this thread when i saw that you have Prospal as a 1st line players and Dubi 2/3 Lol.

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01-24-2010, 06:31 PM
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HAPPY HOUR
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I also think we have a problem with team unity as well.
And its starting to rear its ugly head.

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01-24-2010, 06:52 PM
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Chimp
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I stopped reading this thread when i saw that you have Prospal as a 1st line players and Dubi 2/3 Lol.
Yeah, because we shouldn't ignore minor, subjective, highly arguable "errors" and instead ignore the whole point. Which probably was a little bit too much to take in anyway, so you're excused.

When you've studied "argumentation 101", you will know how much your post failed at actually contributing anything at all. So the next time you feel like writing anything you think out loud, let's just not do that, mkay?

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