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The huge trouble at depth (why we suck)

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Old
01-24-2010, 07:04 PM
  #26
haveandare
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Personally, I think the lack of team mentality or team unity or whatever you want to call it is the biggest problem here. There are teams in this league that get by with rosters that are about as talented and deep as ours, for example the sabres I'd say are about evenly matched with us in terms of out and out skill, but they play solid team defense every night and they think, move and act as a team all the time.

The source of this problem isn't as obvious as saying that there's not enough depth or skill, but I think that it comes down in part to our contracts. The administration here gives the message that it doesn't really matter how well you do once the contract is signed, once you sign you're set and you can pretty much give up. Our veterans and highest paid players need to lead the team in some symbolic sense if they can't do it on the board. Dru does some of this with his defense and his willingness to sacrifice the body, but thats not enough and Redden and Rozy seem to contribute nothing outside of mediocre defense and low confidence in their ability, some of which comes from the NY media's attacks on them and the garden's idiotic habit of booing them when they put up a rare good performance, but at the end of the day they're highly paid professionals and they need to deal with the critics and do something for this team.

I'm not sure I agree with some of these evaluations. I haven't seen anything from Dubinski since he came back from injury that labels him as a borderline second liner or third liner. He has nearly a point per game since returning from injury if I'm not mistaken, thats not the type of points that I would even think to associate with the words "third liner." For Christensen, I don't think him being on waivers has anything to do with it. The guy plays big with good players, thats valuable. I know that there's the classic "anyone can be good with Gaborik" line of thinking, but it doesn't matter if thats the truth or not, because he's on this team and he's our anchor. So what if players only put up first line numbers with him? He's always going to be on the first line. Put Christensen back with him and Dubi. They put up points together...seems logical. Zaba is not our backup, Johnson obviously is. Last night they had him in Hartford and I assume didn't expect Hank to get shelled by a team that we beat like dogs a few days before. Marc Staal is very clearly a first pairing defender to me, and labeling Anisimov a third liner is a bit hasty considering he's a rookie and has gotten very limited time anywhere else in the roster.

Just my two cents, not absolute by any means.

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Old
01-24-2010, 07:20 PM
  #27
broadwayblue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satrabyk View Post
I stopped reading this thread when i saw that you have Prospal as a 1st line players and Dubi 2/3 Lol.
Where exactly would you put those guys? Prospal is a first liner on an average team at best. Placing him there (as a stretch) for this argument further supports the OP's claim that guys are playing well above their rightful places. The verdict is still out on Dubi. Is he a first liner? Not yet he isn't. There's certainly a decent chance he is better than a career 3rd liner...but there's no guarantee he sticks on the top line. So what's wrong with penciling him in at 2/3? People love to overrate their own guys. Maybe he'll become a stud...but right now Dubi is no better than a second liner in this league.

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01-24-2010, 08:29 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Where exactly would you put those guys? Prospal is a first liner on an average team at best. Placing him there (as a stretch) for this argument further supports the OP's claim that guys are playing well above their rightful places. The verdict is still out on Dubi. Is he a first liner? Not yet he isn't. There's certainly a decent chance he is better than a career 3rd liner...but there's no guarantee he sticks on the top line. So what's wrong with penciling him in at 2/3? People love to overrate their own guys. Maybe he'll become a stud...but right now Dubi is no better than a second liner in this league.
If you want to be nice to the guy and actually reply to his "lol I stopped reading when you had an opinion different than mine lol", this is basically it. Prospal has entire seasons off where he is cold in an ON/OFF pattern. He was bought out by Tampa, who were sick of him (Prospal was Tampa's trash, Rozsival was Pittsburgh's trash, Girardi wasn't even anybodys trash, do I see a pattern here? The slightly more gold-wrapped Islanders are what we are, no offense to the Islanders though). Does that tell you he is a legit 1st liner? Hell no, only on the Rangers, because the cold hard truth is we have no winger that is better offensively*. So his 9 goals and 36 points in 46 games is putting him in a secure 2nd place in points produced on the team, a mind boggling 25 points after Gaborik. It was quite clear just how much he could contribute when Gaborik was out, kind of like the Straka - Nylander - Jagr line. They were really good, but only if Jagr was playing (even if Nylander and Straka had their hot streak nights). And the 1st line is only potentially good, if Gaborik is playing well, otherwise it's a laughable 1st line.

And for Dubinsky... are there still some blind homers on these boards who actually consider him a legit 1st liner? On what team, except ours? NONE. No other NHL team whatsoever, except for some really weak bottom feeder perhaps, but I think we should be aiming for something better than such a position. You can't have a 1st liner that goes cold for 40 games in a stretch, which basically says that Dubinsky plays above his head when he's on the 1st line. Is he a better player this year than last? Yes, his cold streaks aren't as terrible anymore. Is he a legit 1st liner yet? No.

*Gaborik is no winger, he is a demigod. The proof is his offensive numbers on this team, no mortal can do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Personally, I think the lack of team mentality or team unity or whatever you want to call it is the biggest problem here. There are teams in this league that get by with rosters that are about as talented and deep as ours, for example the sabres I'd say are about evenly matched with us in terms of out and out skill, but they play solid team defense every night and they think, move and act as a team all the time... (I cut it a little bit to save space)
Yes, you're sadly right of course, to a debatable degree. Which is the biggest problem, team chemistry/ identity or the horrible lack of depth? But that's why I said I was simplifying the situation. At least half the team is swapped each season, leaving a minimal core already after 2 seasons. That's just brutal in a long-term perspective. The guys need half a season each season, just to get to know eachother.

I don't think we should be glad we're agreeing that this team is so bad in so many ways though... More like even more depressed, since we are acknowledging that simply getting a Kovalchuk for this team won't solve all our problems by far and not make this team a cup contender (since we can't tank, as long as we have Lundqvist). Sadly though, $ather, as the incompetent GM as he is, can't see the real problems here when he stops playing NYR on NHL 1998 on his playstation (where he glitch trades all the best players in the league while he is chewing on his cigar) and thinks painting over the bad paint job on the house with more paint will just cover the problem and it will disappear. Getting out of this mess will take years and years of hard, strategic, skillful and long-term thinking management work. Oh, we have $ather as a GM, the guys that created this mess and has done so for 15 years? Oh, great... How old is $ather, the retired playboy as he is? I predict the Rangers will win another cup in perhaps 2044, 50 years after the last one.

The next natural disaster that enters American territory should be named Glen Sather. Everyone knows beforehand what is coming, what is going to happen and the utter devastation and jaw dropping impact it will leave. But all you can do is hide in a shelter, pray and wait for the **** storm to clear.


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Old
01-24-2010, 10:37 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Is anyone really surprised? I mean on offense this team is basically comprised of Gaborik, 1 or 2 second liners and 10 bottom 6 guys. We all knew this before the season started. What's the big news here? I've been saying all along we're a couple of years away from contending and I still believe that to be true.
BWB -true enough, but man it is SO painful to see it reinforced with every game the Rangers play.

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01-24-2010, 10:44 PM
  #30
lotus
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"Trash" might be a little harsh for Lisin...

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01-25-2010, 12:21 AM
  #31
Chimp
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Originally Posted by lotus View Post
"Trash" might be a little harsh for Lisin...
It may sound harsh, but that's how it is. He is simply a trash player. Let me explain myself. He's not nearly good enough offensively to play in a top six role and he doesn't have the (defensive/ physical) qualities you prefer in a bottom six player either. And you don't want him on any special teams. He's fast, but doesn't fit in anywhere.

Lisin is talented, I give him that, but so was/ is Marcel Hossa, the multiple year nursing project. Peter Prucha, anyone? That didn't pan out that well, did it? A player coming to NHL can't develop that much more, they must be basically complete players when they come here and Lisin isn't the complete package.

I'll gladly eat crow if he pans out to become a solid NHLer, but sadly, I just don't see it happening. He'll be gone soon (back in Europe somewhere, maybe KHL where he will thrive with more puck space). We got him for a cheap price for a reason (as usual when we get prospects/ young players/ other crap in some deal), they just haggle their crap and $ather with his infamous player evaluation skills happily accepts.


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Old
01-25-2010, 12:34 AM
  #32
Kel Varnsen
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We don't suck, we're mediocre.

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Old
01-25-2010, 12:51 AM
  #33
Chimp
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
We don't suck, we're mediocre.
That's simply a question about semantics. Weak, inadequate, wretched, hardly passable, mediocre, average... well, it's all pretty undesirable words when you want to describe the New York Rangers, isn't it? Solid, impressive or well built would sound much better, wouldn't it?

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Old
01-25-2010, 02:02 AM
  #34
Kel Varnsen
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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
That's simply a question about semantics. Weak, inadequate, wretched, hardly passable, mediocre, average... well, it's all pretty undesirable words when you want to describe the New York Rangers, isn't it? Solid, impressive or well built would sound much better, wouldn't it?
Disagree with the first part, agree with the second. I think some people here think the only two options for a team are elite and terrible. There's a lot in between and when we're at any of those points we shouldn't act as if we're at either one of the two extremes.

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01-25-2010, 02:04 AM
  #35
Nemchinov13
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Wow, Chimp, I really like you when you're p---ed off. I mean I always enjoy reading your posts, eventhough I don't post here myself, but when you add a bit of emotion - it's like having a beer and lighting up a cigarette. Your posts are consistently on the money with a healthy dose of sarcasm mixed in.

So, tell me, my man, in retrospective, if the team as it is today (with the healthy demigod) retains Renney as HC, do we have more points?

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Old
01-25-2010, 04:24 AM
  #36
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Hmm. Gaborik, Lundqvist and a team full of third liners?

Thanks for shedding light on something we've been aware of since the summer.

Still, it could be worse. It could be last year where Lundqvist was the lone star amongst underachievers and players in roles they couldn't fill. At least this year there's two of them.

Next...

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Old
01-25-2010, 06:44 AM
  #37
GWOW
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The Renney garbage is really annoying. The rangers at the midway point of the season except in 2006 were always mediocre and were blown out in games and didn't score.

Coaching has nothing to do with it. This team is rebuilding with youth moreso than any period under renney. It sucks and there are growing pains, because the vets are clearly not good enough to stem the tide

These threads are just repeats of the last 4 years.
I think sather should do what the av's are doing and go with all youth

There's no reason why redden and rosie should be on the current roster if this team keeps getting torched in their own end

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01-25-2010, 08:52 AM
  #38
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we all know deep down this team will not win the cup so if they can make any deals that lean toward next yr or a few yrs down the line they need to pull the trigger

Even if they make these moves ala Kotalik and Rozy being off the books it's not like it's going to hurt them that much this year so they could still get a playoff spot then lose 1st or 2nd round

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Old
01-25-2010, 09:06 AM
  #39
offdacrossbar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
It may sound harsh, but that's how it is. He is simply a trash player. Let me explain myself. He's not nearly good enough offensively to play in a top six role and he doesn't have the (defensive/ physical) qualities you prefer in a bottom six player either. And you don't want him on any special teams. He's fast, but doesn't fit in anywhere.

Lisin is talented, I give him that, but so was/ is Marcel Hossa, the multiple year nursing project. Peter Prucha, anyone? That didn't pan out that well, did it? A player coming to NHL can't develop that much more, they must be basically complete players when they come here and Lisin isn't the complete package.

I'll gladly eat crow if he pans out to become a solid NHLer, but sadly, I just don't see it happening. He'll be gone soon (back in Europe somewhere, maybe KHL where he will thrive with more puck space). We got him for a cheap price for a reason (as usual when we get prospects/ young players/ other crap in some deal), they just haggle their crap and $ather with his infamous player evaluation skills happily accepts.
dude. you need some medication. trash ? i mean seriously.

first off, the guy has been jerked around all season. 1st line, 4th line, healthy scratch, playing hurt for 5 weeks, dressed doesnt play 1 minute, plays 3 minutes an entire game, no pk, no pp and thus consistently skipped on shifts because of this. in the lineup, out of the lineup, and like the rest of this disfunctional bunch, never more than 1 or 2 games- if he plays- with the same linemates.

look at his numbers and tell me there arent guys who play 2x or 3x as much, and have gotten tons of pp time too boot and who have produced the same or less. yet they are called 3rd liners. gimme a break. you put any other player on this team in that same spot, and lets see how they produce.

lisin isnt perfect but he doesnt take shifts off, he consistently tries to finish his checks, he is prone to some lapses but who isnt ?, he hasnt been productive- but who has other than gaby?, and he has/does seem to lose pucks and make silly decisions but so does our friggin capt whos been around alot longer than lisin has.

if you watch his shifts, lisin makes some very nice passes, sets up his linemates pretty well and creates chances. he has a very hard shot and he goes to the front of the net. if drury or higgins did the things lisin does, they would both be better players.

the key with lisin is this.

1. hes inexpensive.

2. he young and still learning the 2 way game. something he seems to be improving at.

3. he has skill and speed, something this team lacks.

all those people who wanted zherdev retained because he had so much talent were willing to overlook his other issues but with lisin, even though hes younger, less expensive and doesnt seem to lack heart, they want him gone because he isnt productive enough. i call that crap.

patience is the key with this kid. he has top 6 talent- not saying he will be a top 6 guy this season- who is still learning where to go and what to do when he gets there, all the while transforming his game 180* to something coach freakout wants him to be.

sorry, but i call your post trash.

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Old
01-25-2010, 09:12 AM
  #40
NYR Sting
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
dude. you need some medication. trash ? i mean seriously.

first off, the guy has been jerked around all season. 1st line, 4th line, healthy scratch, playing hurt for 5 weeks, dressed doesnt play 1 minute, plays 3 minutes an entire game, no pk, no pp and thus consistently skipped on shifts because of this. in the lineup, out of the lineup, and like the rest of this disfunctional bunch, never more than 1 or 2 games- if he plays- with the same linemates.

look at his numbers and tell me there arent guys who play 2x or 3x as much, and have gotten tons of pp time too boot and who have produced the same or less. yet they are called 3rd liners. gimme a break. you put any other player on this team in that same spot, and lets see how they produce.

lisin isnt perfect but he doesnt take shifts off, he consistently tries to finish his checks, he is prone to some lapses but who isnt ?, he hasnt been productive- but who has other than gaby?, and he has/does seem to lose pucks and make silly decisions but so does our friggin capt whos been around alot longer than lisin has.

if you watch his shifts, lisin makes some very nice passes, sets up his linemates pretty well and creates chances. he has a very hard shot and he goes to the front of the net. if drury or higgins did the things lisin does, they would both be better players.

the key with lisin is this.

1. hes inexpensive.

2. he young and still learning the 2 way game. something he seems to be improving at.

3. he has skill and speed, something this team lacks.

all those people who wanted zherdev retained because he had so much talent were willing to overlook his other issues but with lisin, even though hes younger, less expensive and doesnt seem to lack heart, they want him gone because he isnt productive enough. i call that crap.

patience is the key with this kid. he has top 6 talent- not saying he will be a top 6 guy this season- who is still learning where to go and what to do when he gets there, all the while transforming his game 180* to something coach freakout wants him to be.

sorry, but i call your post trash.
How much do you want to bet that within 5 years he's out of the NHL? Forget 5 even, how about 3? I'm even tempted to say 2.

He's awful. Lisin is only an NHL-caliber player when the only thing between him and the net is the goaltender. In pretty much every other situation, he's practically useless. He's KHL bound. Lisin isn't half the player Zherdev is.

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Old
01-25-2010, 09:40 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by BayAreaRanger View Post
Higgins boggles my mind the most. I wasn't expecting him this great 1st line sniper, but to at least get 25 - 30 goals, with 25 - 30 assists and be a solid player.
You say you weren't expecting him to be great, you just expected him to: exceed his career season goal and points totals?

Look I agree with what's being said about him here I'm just pointing out that people in general sometimes come up with wildly optomistic expectations and don't even realize they're doing it.

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Old
01-25-2010, 10:22 AM
  #42
offdacrossbar
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How much do you want to bet that within 5 years he's out of the NHL? Forget 5 even, how about 3? I'm even tempted to say 2.

He's awful. Lisin is only an NHL-caliber player when the only thing between him and the net is the goaltender. In pretty much every other situation, he's practically useless. He's KHL bound. Lisin isn't half the player Zherdev is.

so now its moved from trash to awful. still waiting for your word to describe the other underachievers on this team.

inspite of your silly opinion, hes still got:

the same number of goals as higgins and higgys packing a -10

1 more goal than avery and the same plus/minus -1

only 1 less goal than anisimov and a better plus/minus

only 2 less goals than capt quaalude and a way better plus/minus

and thats averaging waaaay less toi and zero pp minutes.

again, i call bs on the "cant play defense" crap or "liability in his own end" stuff.

look at the numbers and stop hating on the guy already.

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