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Standards we need to set for the value of our players

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Old
01-25-2010, 11:04 PM
  #26
DangerMan
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Originally Posted by Asher View Post
I see no reason to be in a hurry to trade Penner or Lubo. Therefore, I would only do it if the offer is overwhelming. I have zero interest in Ryder - in fact it's safe to say he carries negative value in the deal. Colbourne, while intriguing, is far from being a sure thing. And the pick you're offering is mid-level. My answer: thanks but no thanks.
All your doing is prolonging the rebuild when we're talking about trading Penner and Visnovsky, to already go on top of Moreau, Souray, Staios, and Potentially but unlikely Horcoff. What are we looking for, A Lord of the Flies type hockey team?

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01-25-2010, 11:10 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by booyah83 View Post
All your doing is prolonging the rebuild when we're talking about trading Penner and Visnovsky, to already go on top of Moreau, Souray, Staios, and Potentially but unlikely Horcoff. What are we looking for, A Lord of the Flies type hockey team?
The rebuild you want happens to cash strapped teams we well be doing the rebuild where we keep some good players.Book it.

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01-25-2010, 11:29 PM
  #28
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The rebuild you want happens to cash strapped teams we well be doing the rebuild where we keep some good players.Book it.
I think you and I were talking about (and agreeing on) Gagner.

Not many year old have better seasons than Gagner unless it's the best of the best. There's plenty of very good players that have the same sort of season (45-55 points at that age) and it's encouraging to see him doing well.

Kane, Ovechkin, Crosby are the super exceptions of course, but just because a player isn't a superstar doesn't mean they're not good.

People underrate him lately because they think player development is up, up, up.

Mr. Bugg came up with a very good list of very good NHL players with very similar seasons or worse to Gagner at 20. He's a keeper.

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01-25-2010, 11:38 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Datsun View Post
I think you and I were talking about (and agreeing on) Gagner.

Not many year old have better seasons than Gagner unless it's the best of the best. There's plenty of very good players that have the same sort of season (45-55 points at that age) and it's encouraging to see him doing well.

Kane, Ovechkin, Crosby are the super exceptions of course, but just because a player isn't a superstar doesn't mean they're not good.

People underrate him lately because they think player development is up, up, up.

Mr. Bugg came up with a very good list of very good NHL players with very similar seasons or worse to Gagner at 20. He's a keeper.
The heat Gagner takes on this board is very disturbing. I think he's coming along just fine.

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01-25-2010, 11:41 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
Colbourne is a nice prospect, but for Visnovsky? We are talking a top 10-15 offensive d-man in in his prime.
I seem to remember reading that Visnovsky is top five among defencemen in scoring since the lockout . That's a pretty nice piece to be dangling .

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01-25-2010, 11:45 PM
  #31
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I seem to remember reading that Visnovsky is top five among defencemen in scoring since the lockout . That's a pretty nice piece to be dangling .
Defenseman like Visnovsky don't grow on tress. There are only 10-15 like him in the league, most of the good teams in the league have one and benefit greatly from it.

Think about this one, if Visnovsky was on Vancouver, they'd become San Jose.

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01-26-2010, 02:38 AM
  #32
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I really like this thread. It teaches us patience and prevents us from running around acting like chickens with our heads cut off. Despite what many believe, many of our players have good trade value. We can't panic and trade our best players just to clear up cap space. The point of trading your leaders is to get good prospects back, not make cap room. It also makes us look at our team from either a rebuild perspective or a retooling perspective.

If we retool, then good quality players like Souray or Visnovsky shouldn't be traded. In this case then we can dump salaries (moreau, pisani, horcoff, comrie, and staios) in hopes of attracting better ufas regardless of the return that our players provide. Although this is the more likely option, it may not be the best. Still, fans in edmonton may not be able to go for an entire rebuild.

If we do go for a rebuild, we shouldn't be throwing our veterans away for nothing. We need to make sure we get quality prospects back. We are too used to being buyers and really underestimate what we have. If another team doesn't offer us something decent their is no reason why we can't keep them as mentors to help our younger players develop. With so many teams comepting for the playoffs, edmonton is in a position of power.

If we can establish a BANTA point for our players then we should be well prepared. Outside of Horcoff I think that virtually Everyone could bring back some kind of return.

-Staios is a great dman that many teams would love to have coming down the stretch. If we are lucky, he could fetch us an early second round pick. I'm thinking someone that could eventually be a solid NHLer (ala Colby Robak)
-Pisani is dynamite in the playoffs and could really bring a 2way game to most teams. Being a ufa I could see lots of teams wanting him but lot paying a whole lot to get him. I think he could bring a solid but not flashy prospect back (ala Daulton Leveille).
-Moreau is a great character guy that no longer fits our system. Still, he could probably fetch a late 2nd round pick from a team that plays more his style. He might get you something similar to Pisani (ala Jared Staal)
-O'Sullivan is one of those guys that you don't trade just for the sake of trading him. If he brings back a late first round pick or a good prospect (ala Ryan Mcdonagh)
-Souray, Unless we get something back like a young defenceman and a decent prospect (ala Jack Johnson and Colton Tuebert) for Sheldon Souray, then I say we keep him. LA upgrades of Johnson at the expense of someone who probably doesn't crack the lineup anyways.
-Visnovsky imo would look amazing in a devils uniform but dmen like him don't grow on trees. It would be nice to get a first round pick and blue chip prospect like Tedenby. I think he could garnish a huge return. Another player we shouldn't move unless we get a good deal is Dustin Penner. He is young enough to grow with the team but is probably at his peak in terms of trade value. I wouldn't trade him unless we got a blue chip prospect back (ala Jonathan Blue/John Carlson)

Then we have rumours of cogliano being traded. Same thing for him, unless someone overpays he can grow with the team. I wouldn't trade him for anything less then a top 15 pick. Finally we are probably stuck with Shawn Horcoff regardless if we want him or not. But the truth is, if we do move him, our younger players would get eaten alive. Still, if you can move him and sign someone for half his salary to do the same thing you do it in a heartbeat.


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Old
01-26-2010, 02:44 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by booyah83 View Post
Defenseman like Visnovsky don't grow on tress. There are only 10-15 like him in the league, most of the good teams in the league have one and benefit greatly from it.

Think about this one, if Visnovsky was on Vancouver, they'd become San Jose.
And if he was still in LA we would have two good young players in spots that desperately need filling.

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01-26-2010, 02:45 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by DousedInOil View Post
I really like this thread. It teaches us patience and prevents us from running around acting like chickens with our heads cut off. Despite what many believe, many of our players have good trade value. We can't panic and trade our best players just to clear up cap space. The point of trading your leaders is to get good prospects back, not make cap room. It also makes us look at our team from either a rebuild perspective or a retooling perspective. If we retool, then good quality players like Souray or Visnovsky shouldn't be traded. In this case then we can dump salaries (moreau, pisani, horcoff, comrie, and staios) in hopes of attracting better ufas regardless of the return that our players provide. Although this is the more likely option, it may not be the best. Still, fans in edmonton may not be able to go for an entire rebuild. If we do go for a rebuild, we shouldn't be throwing our veterans away for nothing. We need to make sure we get quality prospects back. We are too used to being buyers and really underestimate what we have. If another team doesn't offer us something decent their is no reason why we can't keep them as mentors to help our younger players develop. With so many teams comepting for the playoffs, edmonton is in a position of power. If we can establish a BANTA point for our players then we should be well prepared. Outside of Horcoff I think that virtually Everyone could bring back some kind of return. Staios is a great dman that many teams would love to have coming down the stretch. If we are lucky, he could fetch us an early second round pick. I'm thinking someone that could eventually be a solid NHLer (ala Colby Robak) Pisani is dynamite in the playoffs and could really bring a 2way game to most teams. Being a ufa I could see lots of teams wanting him but lot paying a whole lot to get him. I think he could bring a solid but not flashy prospect back (ala Daulton Leveille). Moreau is a great character guy that no longer fits our system. Still, he could probably fetch a late 2nd round pick from a team that plays more his style. He might get you something similar to Pisani (ala Jared Staal) O'sullivan is one of those guys that you don't trade just for the sake of trading him. If he brings back a late first round pick or a good prospect (ala Ryan Mcdonagh) I think the most important returns however are on Souray and Visnovsky. Unless we get something back like a young defenceman and a decent prospect (ala Jack Johnson and Colton Tuebert) for Sheldon Souray, then I say we keep him. LA upgrades of Johnson at the expense of someone who probably doesn't crack the lineup anyways. Visnovsky imo would look amazing in a devils uniform but dmen like him don't grow on trees. It would be nice to get a first round pick and blue chip prospect like Tedenby. I think he could garnish a huge return. Another player we shouldn't move unless we get a good deal is Dustin Penner. He is young enough to grow with the team but is probably at his peak in terms of trade value. I wouldn't trade him unless we got a blue chip prospect back (ala Jonathan Blue/John Carlson) Then we have rumours of cogliano being traded. Same thing for him, unless someone overpays he can grow with the team. I wouldn't trade him for anything less then a top 15 pick. Finally we are probably stuck with Shawn Horcoff regardless if we want him or not. But the truth is, if we do move him, our younger players would get eaten alive. Still, if you can move him and sign someone for half his salary to do the same thing you do it in a heartbeat.
That must be on purpose. Whats the point really?

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01-26-2010, 02:45 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
And if he was still in LA we would have two good young players in spots that desperately need filling.
And he won't help the Oilers in the least when they have a chance to be actual contenders.

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01-26-2010, 05:47 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
And if he was still in LA we would have two good young players in spots that desperately need filling.
But filling those spots should, and I emphasize should, be infinitely easier to do than replacing Visnovsky.

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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
And he won't help the Oilers in the least when they have a chance to be actual contenders.
I still have to respectfully disagree on this one. Your statement is far to definitive.

Here is my exhibit one:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=4438

Here is exhibit 2:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=5872

Exhibit 3:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=415

Exhibit 4:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=4397

And perhaps the best for last...

Exibit 5:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=3146

Of course if we need more evidence that a guy like Visnovsky could have many more good years in the tank, I would be happy to provide it.


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Old
01-26-2010, 08:20 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
And if he was still in LA we would have two good young players in spots that desperately need filling.
Those two spots should have been easily filled.

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01-26-2010, 10:12 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
But filling those spots should, and I emphasize should, be infinitely easier to do than replacing Visnovsky.



I still have to respectfully disagree on this one. Your statement is far to definitive.

Here is my exhibit one:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=4438

Here is exhibit 2:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=5872

Exhibit 3:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=415

Exhibit 4:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=4397

And perhaps the best for last...

Exibit 5:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=3146

Of course if we need more evidence that a guy like Visnovsky could have many more good years in the tank, I would be happy to provide it.
Yes. visnovsky is a great skater who plays the type of game that will allow him to be a top notch d-man for the remainder of his contract.

OF Souray and Visnovsky you keep Visnovsky. It's a no-brainer.

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01-26-2010, 10:39 AM
  #39
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Based on what the OP has mentioned before, I'll give it a shot.

Visnovsky - youngish player, middle of the road prospect and 2nd
Souray - Young, middle of the road replacement, and a 2nd
Gilbert - Roster forward, middle-6 and 4th
Grebeshkov - 2nd
Staios - 4th
Strudwick - 8th
Smid - Middle 6 forward and 2nd

Penner - Middle of the road prospect and a bottom end 1st or high 2nd
Gagner - Youngish roster play and 2nd
Nilsson - 4th or 5th
O'Sullivan - 5th or 6th
Comrie - 6th
Moreau - Cheap as Free
Horcoff - to Fariastad(sp) for a 7th
Pisani - 5th
JFJ - 8th
Stortini - 7th
Cogliano - 2nd or 3rd
Stone - 8th
Brule - 3rd
Potulny - 4th

JDD - 6th
DD - 7th

Hey OP, this about covers it right? Because seems to be what you think.

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01-26-2010, 11:03 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Asher View Post
I see no reason to be in a hurry to trade Penner or Lubo. Therefore, I would only do it if the offer is overwhelming. I have zero interest in Ryder - in fact it's safe to say he carries negative value in the deal. Colbourne, while intriguing, is far from being a sure thing. And the pick you're offering is mid-level. My answer: thanks but no thanks.
That was my whole point.
Ryder does have negative value and he's just be a salary dump and that would weaken Boston's offer for one of our forwards or defensemen. If we took on a contract like his we'd have to expect that we'd be getting more than a decent prospect and a mid level draft pick.

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01-26-2010, 11:05 PM
  #41
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The heat Gagner takes on this board is very disturbing. I think he's coming along just fine.
On this board and on the radio.

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01-26-2010, 11:10 PM
  #42
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Yes. visnovsky is a great skater who plays the type of game that will allow him to be a top notch d-man for the remainder of his contract.

OF Souray and Visnovsky you keep Visnovsky. It's a no-brainer.
If we can get a good return for both of them, then why not trade both of them?

Even if we somehow managed to grab 4 first rounders at this year's draft and hold onto 2 of Penner/Souray/Lubo it's only the first step towards rebuilding.

I'm not saying anything new when I tell you look at the Caps, Penguins, Hawks and Kings and at the same time realize that they didn't come out of the ashes after one miserable season.

How could we be so crazy to think that we could do such a thing so quickly?

I say keep Gagner, Brule and Smid. Also keep Hemsky unless we get an insane offer. I can't see it happening. He's got so much skill and his cap hit is incredible. I can't imagine us getting a package which pays off in the long term.

Anyone else can be had for the right price.

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01-26-2010, 11:14 PM
  #43
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On this board and on the radio.
We all knew it was going to be a weak draft year, which means at the very least more "project" players - ie. players that are going to need a long time before they can reach their potential. Well, so far that's pretty much been the case. The stats so far speak for themselves - with the exception of Kane, no one from '07 has become a star. And when you compare Gagner to everyone else, he's doing pretty damn good.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2007e.html

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01-26-2010, 11:30 PM
  #44
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So, we get 1 year of Ryder at 4.0 Million (tradeable at next years deadline), the #30 overall prospect on Hockeysfuture (who is 6'5) and a first round pick?

It would go along way to our rebuild.
I dunno. The whole Smyth for Robert Nilsson and two firsts(O'Mara and Plante) has done sweet ef all in turning the ship around.

I think I'd rather just keep the guy that is a good NHLer.

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01-26-2010, 11:50 PM
  #45
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We all knew it was going to be a weak draft year, which means at the very least more "project" players - ie. players that are going to need a long time before they can reach their potential. Well, so far that's pretty much been the case. The stats so far speak for themselves - with the exception of Kane, no one from '07 has become a star. And when you compare Gagner to everyone else, he's doing pretty damn good.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2007e.html
Good call, have not looked at the 07 draft in a while. Gagner is progressing nicely. However, I find it interesting how more guys from 08 have made an impact and look to progress further, at least IMO, and we have Eberle (@ 21st) coming up

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2008e.html

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01-27-2010, 11:07 AM
  #46
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That must be on purpose. Whats the point really?
lol my blackberry didnt accept the spaces in paragraphs I had in place.

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01-27-2010, 11:55 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher View Post
We all knew it was going to be a weak draft year, which means at the very least more "project" players - ie. players that are going to need a long time before they can reach their potential. Well, so far that's pretty much been the case. The stats so far speak for themselves - with the exception of Kane, no one from '07 has become a star. And when you compare Gagner to everyone else, he's doing pretty damn good.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2007e.html
For sure. It still shocks me how Kane has kept the pace up and stayed healthy considering his size. Same with Gagner. They're smart players.

There's no way in hell Gagner is going to get worse like Horcoff has. This kid isn't even near his prime yet. We've gotta keep him up on the first line so that he can at least have a decent shooter or two to play with. When Coglinao and Nilson played well on the 2nd line it wasn't bad having him there because he had someone to work with.

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