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Is coaching the problem?

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:06 PM
  #26
LeMAD
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Hey great thread.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:07 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyosuke View Post
Right now, and as it has been since the start of the season.. ANYBODY BUT MARTIN! GTFO

Honorable mentions:
Guy Boucher
Pierre McGuire
Guy or nobody!

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:07 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
A problem, not the problem. Gainey did it wrong. He picked the coach then the players. He should of either gotten players that are suited to Martin, or gotten a coach suited to the players.
i agree and many said that from day one. Martin wasn't magically going to change his coaching style after this many years. Gainey knew the coach he was getting and the players he had and went out and got. The fact that everyone and their blind dog knew they weren't compatible while Gainey thought otherwise makes you really wonder.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:08 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Yes. The coach is absolutely a big part of the problem. This is a badly underachieving team and the blame has to be laid squarely at his feet.

Martin came here carrying a reputation for strong 5-on-5 play, efficient transition based on quick short passes, defensive excellence, and excellent team preparation, and said he would implement a puck possession system.

I feel like there ought to be some consumer board I should be able to file a complaint for outright fraudulent advertising. We've pretty much been treated to the complete opposite of the above.

This team has actually gotten worse as the year's gone on, but the goaltending has been better and papered over the deficiencies. They were better before Martin got a chance to instill his system. And they're going to get worse and worse.

Saddest part? Those who thinks he needs a chance are going to get their wish, because for a variety of reasons (contract, short tenure, need for stability) he's going to get at least this season and next before replacing him is considered. Expect the Habs to wallow in mediocrity for at least this long. I think they may even get worse as players start giving up.
We've been a .500 team since game 1. Halak has played well since the start, and Price has had good/bad stints throughout the year.
We haven't gotten bad as the year advances. If anything we've been consistently average/mediocre.

Our lack of depth is the clear problem. You can bring in Scotty Bowman, he's not going to make Metro/Moen/Maxwell and Lappy/Bergeron/Darche into good checking/energy lines.

Martin is not perfect, his system is boring, I'd have different approaches for certain things. But he's not the main cause of our problem.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:10 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
i agree and many said that from day one. Martin wasn't magically going to change his coaching style after this many years. Gainey knew the coach he was getting and the players he had and went out and got. The fact that everyone and their blind dog knew they weren't compatible while Gainey thought otherwise makes you really wonder.
Gomez, Gionta and Cammy all had career years while playing in defensive systems in NJ and CGY.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:12 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyosuke View Post
Right now, and as it has been since the start of the season.. ANYBODY BUT MARTIN! GTFO

Honorable mentions:
Guy Boucher
Pierre McGuire
Guy Boucher, please.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:13 PM
  #32
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This thread screams of Guy Boucher... But a firing is not what we need right now. Let's face it, we're a bubble team for the Playoffs and even if we make it, we won't win the Cup. We need to let this season run it's course and then bring in a new coach (Boucher) and a new GM (McGuire would be nice)

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:14 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
We've been a .500 team since game 1. Halak has played well since the start, and Price has had good/bad stints throughout the year.
Halak actually had a long stretch of sub-.900 goaltending. Price actually recovered before Halak did and for a stretch had the superior save percentage.

Bad goaltending and lack of finish sunk the team earlier. Then they started putting it in and making saves, which masks the fact that they're getting outplayed and outchanced every last game, whereas previously they would at least outplay teams. Nevermind that they didn't have Markov back then, and do now, but the record has stayed the same.

This used to be a team that was .500 because it was unlucky, and now it's a team that is .500 because it's lucky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Our lack of depth is the clear problem. You can bring in Scotty Bowman, he's not going to make Metro/Moen/Maxwell and Lappy/Bergeron/Darche into good checking/energy lines.
Half these guys are perfectly capable of forming a capable third line, but Martin's system causes the team to spend long stretches in their zones and these guys suffer disproportionately. There's a depth issue but it's not nearly as bad as Martin makes it look.

Look, Martin has trouble getting a certain type of player, especially third-line players to be productive. His system is singularly ill-suited to those. Example: Lats and Lapierre were fine last year in a third-year role but Martin was incapable of using them effectively. Trade Lats, and what happens -- he explodes offensively.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:16 PM
  #34
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I think he'll need to lose a few more before he gets kicked out. IMO I think he's a smart coach but he's got the players playing the wrong system. Either he changes the system or he leaves.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:16 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Gomez, Gionta and Cammy all had career years while playing in defensive systems in NJ and CGY.
There's no reason you can't score in a defensive system, especially if you are these guys. A quality defensive system involves strong neutral zone play, creating turnovers, and using quick transition to create rushes that lead to scoring chances. Skilled, speedy players can thrive in such a system because it exploits their speed (I remember writing a post some time ago that Carbo should play this way, because his team was weak defensively and had lots of speed).

Martin's system is played in the defensive zone and is very weak in the neutral zone, there is little transition (clears are made up the boards), and the passive approach prevents the creation of turnovers. It's not a trap, and it's not a system in which speedy players can thrive.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:16 PM
  #36
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If recent history is of any indication, I would say no, the coach is not the problem. Remember how many coaches came and went in BG's previous 5-years plan?

The problem is the cast of players. The same five players on this team have been carrying all the load for way too long. Moreoever, four of those five players are tiny.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:18 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Gomez, Gionta and Cammy all had career years while playing in defensive systems in NJ and CGY.
and that has to do with the team Gainey assembling matching JM style?

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:22 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyosuke View Post
Right now, and as it has been since the start of the season.. ANYBODY BUT MARTIN! GTFO

Honorable mentions:
Guy Boucher
Pierre McGuire
What the ****? Some people want Pierre McGuire as our head coach now? It wasn't enough for the GM talk.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:22 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
so you are saying player personnel is the problem. And whose in charge of that?
Gainey, and he'll have to address this.
I've said it many times, I'd call up other players like White/Neilson/Stewart/Pyatt. At least with them, you get to define your bottom 2 lines.
You can have a real checking line, and another energy/aggressive one.
Instead of having 6players without any real role defined.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:22 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Funny because the offensive players are doing just fine.
yea they really showed up tonight. Are they consistent?

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:23 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by dysonlu View Post
If recent history is of any indication, I would say no, the coach is not the problem. Remember how many coaches came and went in BG's previous 5-years plan?
Not that many: Julien (who was good, but not Gainey's guy), Carbonneau (who wasn't very good), and Martin.

Gainey may have a problem with hiring coaches actually. He's 0-for-2.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:24 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Not that many: Julien (who was good, but not Gainey's guy), Carbonneau (who wasn't very good), and Martin.

Gainey may have a problem with hiring coaches actually. He's 0-for-2.
0 on 3 including himself...

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:25 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I've said it many times, I'd call up other players like White/Neilson/Stewart/Pyatt. At least with them, you get to define your bottom 2 lines.
Too bad they would suck. These guys can't hang on in the NHL, that's why they are getting seasoned in the AHL. White and Pyatt became fan favorites because of their work ethic, but they got torched on the ice by the bottom of opposing rosters -- worse than the lines are getting now.

The top lines are getting torched too, incidentally. This is a systemic problem that goes beyond the roster's bottom-six.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:26 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
0 on 3 including himself...
The sad part is, in some ways he may have been the best of the three.

Carbonneau has 2007-2008 to put in his cap, but you have to question how much of that was his coaching and how much of that was Pleky and AKost's breakout and Kovy's improbable PP performance. Crazy goaltending didn't hurt either.

In his defense tho, Carbo managed to parlay crazy good goaltending and a great PP into wins, something which eludes Martin.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:27 PM
  #45
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Didn't like it when he was hired and I like him even less today!
The Molson's need to step in and do something drastic~!

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:28 PM
  #46
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You know as long as we're doling out the blame when things go wrong, let's blame the fans, equipment guys, scouting staff, media and especially Youppi.

This team is right where it should be. Win some, lose some. To boot, most of their losses are by only one goal. A bounce here or there and they win most of those games and they're near the top of the division. 2 years ago that's what happened.

Not sure what people expected from this team after being completely dismantled last summer.

Our biggest problem has been that we've never been bad enough to have a high draft pick. The one year we had a top 5 pick, we take a goalie that everyone proceeds to take a big dump on every time he makes a mistake. I look at the first round of that draft and can only find one player (Kopitar) drafted after Price that may have been a better choice.

All you guys that piss and moan about this and that, remember that there are teams in worse shape than we are, some of the teams better than us are doing it because they sucked so bad they picked up superstars, and some teams are succeeding through smoke and mirrors- a bad week or two and they will crash too.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:28 PM
  #47
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Martin said that he want his team to play like the Red Wings but all he was able to do so far it's to change the Habs into the last year Panthers

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01-27-2010, 10:31 PM
  #48
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I don't like the guy but I didn't like Carbo or Gainey either. It just sucks they have to hire someone who speaks French but I wouldn't mind seeing Boucher next year.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:39 PM
  #49
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
There's no reason you can't score in a defensive system, especially if you are these guys. A quality defensive system involves strong neutral zone play, creating turnovers, and using quick transition to create rushes that lead to scoring chances. Skilled, speedy players can thrive in such a system because it exploits their speed (I remember writing a post some time ago that Carbo should play this way, because his team was weak defensively and had lots of speed).

Martin's system is played in the defensive zone and is very weak in the neutral zone, there is little transition (clears are made up the boards), and the passive approach prevents the creation of turnovers. It's not a trap, and it's not a system in which speedy players can thrive.
There's not 5 million ways of playing a defensive system.
Backchecking down low in our zone, support the D, keep passes short in our zone and break out together. No turnover in the neutral zone.
Clearing the puck up the board isn't part of the system, the numerous neutral zone turnovers are not part of it either.
Some of the turnovers are ridiculous and shouldn't be done, that's the end of it.

Maybe you think a certain style would fit better in a different system but I don't buy that. Our Defense would still be slow and not very mobile.

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Old
01-27-2010, 10:40 PM
  #50
Kirk Muller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Gainey, and he'll have to address this.
I've said it many times, I'd call up other players like White/Neilson/Stewart/Pyatt. At least with them, you get to define your bottom 2 lines.
You can have a real checking line, and another energy/aggressive one.
Instead of having 6players without any real role defined.
great and i agree, except the bottom 6 hasn't been defined in Gainey's entire tenure. It has always been a mismatch of parts.

So the easiest roles to define he has never done or is he just really really slow? The fact is this should be the easiest thing to accomplish and he has been unable to do so in what 5-6 years now. When do you start wondering what his logic is with how he assembles these teams


Last edited by Kirk Muller: 01-27-2010 at 10:46 PM.
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