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Is coaching the problem?

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Old
01-27-2010, 09:41 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by rgolt View Post
yes he is the problem
only thing is, he has a multi year contract and theres absolutely no chance he gets fired during his 1st season
sucks i no
and Carbo signed a multi-year contract extension a couple of months before being fired. So no, not 3 coachs on the payroll.

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01-27-2010, 09:46 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by habs11 View Post
yea they really showed up tonight. Are they consistent?
Ah yes, the one game sample.

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01-27-2010, 09:53 PM
  #53
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great and i agree, except the bottom 6 hasn't been defined in Gainey's entire tenure. It has always been a mismatch of parts.

So the easiest roles to define he has never done or is he just really really slow? The fact is this should be the easiest thing to accomplish and he has been unable to do so in what 5-6 years now. When do you start wondering what his logic is with how he assembles these teams
I'm not defending Gainey anymore, I have been for a long time and I think a change is imminent. But in all fairness, he thought our youngsters could do it. So, bad evaluation from his part.

I'm not happy with the roster built, but I find it's useless to whine about it really.

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01-27-2010, 09:58 PM
  #54
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I blame it on the defense and poor checking lines. We have such a hard time getting the puck out of the zone. Our shutdown lines are just average at best. Moen is our only real tough guy up front and thats kinda sad. We should've added a Pahlson or a Madden type.

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01-27-2010, 10:09 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
A problem, not the problem. Gainey did it wrong. He picked the coach then the players. He should of either gotten players that are suited to Martin, or gotten a coach suited to the players.
I agree completely. We can't always blame the coaches. Since Gainey took the helm in 2003, we had: Julien, Gainey, Carbonneau, Gainey, Martin... and now people want Martin's head?

As you mentioned, Martin is definitely not flawless (the passive one man forecheck against Florida was annoying as hell... why didn't he correct it as the game progressed?) but Gainey is the one who hired a D squad that don't fit well in Martin's system. Gainey is responsible for the lack of size and grits upfront.

I hope Molson won't let Gainey fire another coach.



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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
No Martin is not the problem. Look at the 3rd and 4th line, tell me what they bring to this team. The answer to that question is the problem.

We could have a completely different system, it wouldn't change much. Our defense wouldn't be faster and, our 3rd/4th line still just as useless and small.

Martin is not the problem. It's easy to hate him now because we're not winning and to make matters worse our team is boring.

The 3 favorite excuses in Mtl..the Coach, the GM and the Goalies.

"... Look at the 3rd and 4th line, tell me what they bring to this team. The answer to that question is the problem..."

Moen and Lapierre (#1 and #2 in terms of hits in Habs land) looked very good against NJ when Martin gave them 17-19 minutes. With the departures of Chipchura, Latendresse and Laraques + the injury to Andrei Kostitsyn, Moen and Lapierre are now our biggest forwards and this team badly needs them... on the ice.

I know size is not a panacea but how would you describe our success rate in 1 v 1 battle alongside the boards? Pathetic eh?

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01-27-2010, 10:11 PM
  #56
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I blame it on the failure of Gainey to have enough talent on the team. There's a sharp dropoff from the first two lines and the absence of AKost is particularly painful. If Gainey hadn't traded for Pouliot the Habs would be in even deeper trouble. Not only that, but the D as a unit is undistinguished. The only bright spot is the goaltending, where the Habs have 2 NHL quality players. Unfortunately, any plan to improve the Habs at another position would mean sacrificing Halak or Price.

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01-27-2010, 10:23 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Habs10Habs View Post
Of course the coach is part of the problem when things go bad. Just like he's part of the solution when things are going well.

Personally I think we have too many players that really need to look in the mirror.




name them, i 'll start
Max Lapierre

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01-27-2010, 10:27 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post

"... Look at the 3rd and 4th line, tell me what they bring to this team. The answer to that question is the problem..."

Moen and Lapierre (#1 and #2 in terms of hits in Habs land) looked very good against NJ when Martin gave them 17-19 minutes. With the departures of Chipchura, Latendresse and Laraques + the injury to Andrei Kostitsyn, Moen and Lapierre are now our biggest forwards and this team badly needs them... on the ice.

I know size is not a panacea but how would you describe our success rate in 1 v 1 battle alongside the boards? Pathetic eh?
Our battling rate is more than pathetic.
I wasn't suggesting Moen and Lappy are the problem.
Lapierre was a very good 3rd liner last year, Moen has proven he can do the job before as well.
I think it's the mix of the bottom 6 isn't a good one. Bergeron is useless as a Forward and Darche/Maxwell/Laraque/D'Ago/MaxPac bring absolutely nothing really interesting.

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01-27-2010, 10:28 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Go Habs Go View Post
I blame it on the defense and poor checking lines. We have such a hard time getting the puck out of the zone. Our shutdown lines are just average at best. Moen is our only real tough guy up front and thats kinda sad. We should've added a Pahlson or a Madden type.
Or we should've kept Chipchura and played him with someone other than Laraque, a line of Moen - Chipchura - Lapierre would've been a solid checking line but instead we got a 4th round pick while Chipchura has been playing well for Anaheim.

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01-27-2010, 10:40 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by loudi94 View Post
You know as long as we're doling out the blame when things go wrong, let's blame the fans, equipment guys, scouting staff, media and especially Youppi.

This team is right where it should be. Win some, lose some. To boot, most of their losses are by only one goal. A bounce here or there and they win most of those games and they're near the top of the division. 2 years ago that's what happened.

Not sure what people expected from this team after being completely dismantled last summer.

Our biggest problem has been that we've never been bad enough to have a high draft pick. The one year we had a top 5 pick, we take a goalie that everyone proceeds to take a big dump on every time he makes a mistake. I look at the first round of that draft and can only find one player (Kopitar) drafted after Price that may have been a better choice.

All you guys that piss and moan about this and that, remember that there are teams in worse shape than we are, some of the teams better than us are doing it because they sucked so bad they picked up superstars, and some teams are succeeding through smoke and mirrors- a bad week or two and they will crash too.
Wow great post. It's funny but apparently reactionary fans think blaming everyone and let's trade and fire instead of showing some patience and realizing they are in the first year playing together. Price and Halak have given the team a chance to win most nights.
Could we do better, sure but I am willing to give it some time. If we miss the playoffs this year or get in 7th or 8th i am ok with that because of the changes we made this off season. But next season we should expect a much improved team and better results.

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01-27-2010, 10:52 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Go Habs Go View Post
I blame it on the defense and poor checking lines. We have such a hard time getting the puck out of the zone. Our shutdown lines are just average at best. Moen is our only real tough guy up front and thats kinda sad. We should've added a Pahlson or a Madden type.

At the end of the day this really is the issue, bottom six and defense to a point. Our defense seems to have trouble moving the puck out of our zone but is that a systemic problem or is a talent issue? Our bottom six are not up to snuff but could they be? Moen, Metro, Lapierre should be a good checking line no? Skost, Maxwell and Bergeron can be an ok fourth? So really is it a talent issue or a systemic issue? IMHO it is systems and implementing the game plan.

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01-27-2010, 10:56 PM
  #62
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Wow great post. It's funny but apparently reactionary fans think blaming everyone and let's trade and fire instead of showing some patience and realizing they are in the first year playing together. Price and Halak have given the team a chance to win most nights.
Could we do better, sure but I am willing to give it some time. If we miss the playoffs this year or get in 7th or 8th i am ok with that because of the changes we made this off season. But next season we should expect a much improved team and better results.
Really there are only 4 teams (Pitt, Wash, SJ and Chi) that have to be considered favourites to win the cup. Then there are about 4 teams (Van, NJ, and Buf and Detroit-always have to include them) that have an outside shot if everything falls together for them. Everyone else is looking for a miracle.

Now look at those top 4 and notice only SJ has built a team without missing the playoffs 3-5 years in a row.

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01-27-2010, 10:56 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Pernell Karl View Post
Or we should've kept Chipchura and played him with someone other than Laraque, a line of Moen - Chipchura - Lapierre would've been a solid checking line but instead we got a 4th round pick while Chipchura has been playing well for Anaheim.
This is the only move so far that I did not really like. Chips is a solid guy, good at what he does well and not real bad at anything. Here is a guy picked for his character and work ethic and dedication and those are the reasons we traded him? I would have kept him as the fourth line center instead of using Bergeron on the fourth.

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Old
01-28-2010, 12:08 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There's not 5 million ways of playing a defensive system.
Actually there's variations. Depending on how much you clog the neutral zone (the trap vs. Martin's system), how much pressure you put on attackers in your zone (which in Martin's system is often not a whole lot).

The key is the transition game, however, which allows you to counter-attack. But Martin stresses "safe" clears off the boards, so the transition game is very poor despite having some skilled passing defensemen. It happens far too often for me to believe that's not encouraged.

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01-28-2010, 12:09 AM
  #65
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I got to say, the problem must be Martin. We have the 2nd best PP in the league. We lead the league in 4-4 goals. We're 7th in PK. These are all special teams situations. I would argue that special teams is the area where the true talent shows in the players--where its more about skill than an actual plan of attack. We excel in these domains because we have highly skilled players. When it comes to 5-5 we're dead last in the league. Why? Because this is where the "System" comes into focus. In special teams situations, its all about guys doing what they do best; it barely has anything to do with Martin. 5-5 is where Martin can really take control and put his imprint on the team--and thats why we're struggling.

And what's this about how we have no good prospects? Why is it that in the last 3-4 years we've had a really good farm team? Is that some kind of fluke? Yeah of course we think our prospects suck, because whenever we bring them up they inevitably begin to regress. Everyone ends up blaming it on the player, and then Gainey and Timmins for drafting a bad player. How about blaming the coaches? Anyone think of that?

Is it really any surprise that Cory Clouston, Dan Bylsma and Bruce Boudreau are doing so well in the NHL? What do all these guys have in common? AHL. That's what. They know how to work with kids, and they all implement a system that has the skaters on the ice attacking and defending as a team. Its all about skating. It's not about dropping back and playing defence. Martin system maybe made sense before the lockout but it doesn't work anymore.

Gainey's mistake is that he signed forwards that play an up-tempo attacking game, without realizing that they'd be stifled in Martin's system. You need to be big and physical to dominate in this system--if you want to stifle the other team in the neutral zone you need to be stronger than them on the puck--i know, duh. Guess what, though? We signed some of the smallest forwards in the league!

And now, sadly, we're stuck with Martin because as someone pointed out, we still have to pay Carbo's contract, so we're not going hire another head coach and pay for 3. It's really too bad because all this could have been avoided if we had just hired Guy Boucher instead...

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Old
01-28-2010, 01:12 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by rgolt View Post
yes he is the problem
only thing is, he has a multi year contract and theres absolutely no chance he gets fired during his 1st season
sucks i no
Maybe they should promote him

That usually solves problems...

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01-28-2010, 04:08 AM
  #67
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Well I don't think it is the only problem, it is one of them for sure. I never liked his signing and still don't. Bob made a decision to go with speedy players with some decent offensive abilities but then hires a coach that tends to hold his players back. We need a coach that will implement a system that will allow the players to be a little more free-wheeling.

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01-28-2010, 06:40 AM
  #68
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Jacques Martin is not the problem. Bob Gainey is the problem.

We've had three coaches - four if you count Bob - and we're almost always in the same place: on the outside looking in. The first couple of years is understandable. Bob needed to mold the team.

He's on his six (seventh) year. This is Bob Gainey's team and what has he done? Given us an undersized average skilled team.

Cammy
Plekanec
Gomez
Gionta
Metro

I said it this summer and i said it during the year but some fans kept blaming the injuries for our lackluster beginning. Now that almost all the injured players are back you need another excuse. So you blame Jacques Martin.

I have a secret for you! It ain't Martin.

When you have 5 undersized players on your top three lines you're asking for trouble. If those players compensated for their size by being exceptionally great at something else then okay but you still don't go out and get 5 of them. But which of those 5 players is exceptionally great at anything?

Cammy: great, quick shot, above average speed

Pleks: great hockey sense, exceptional vision, above average in every other aspect

Gomez: good hockey sense, at times great vision that has enormous blind spots hence all his give aways, speed is alright but not enough to compensate for his size

Gionta: very good speed, excellent reflexes but these are not enough to make up for his gnat presence on the ice

Metro: above average skills in every department but again not enough to compensate for his and the other 4's lack of size.

Except for Gomez (because of his ridiculous contract) I would gladly take any one or two of those players on my team but not 5.


Three of those players have to go - or at least two.

I would trade Gomez, Gionta (they're not giving us our money's worth) and unfortunately Metro.

An indication that our lack of size is the problem is the difference between our success with 4 on 4 situations and our lack of success with 5 on 5.

4 on 4 the above average skills of those players comes into play because there's more time & space on the ice. 5 on 5 the time & space is taken away and those players don't have the size or the out-of-this-world talent to compensate for it.

Now, I know every team has a small player or two and one or two of those 5 smurfs would be great but when all 5 are on the same team you get a problem that is amplified exponentially.

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01-28-2010, 07:11 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by loudi94 View Post
Really there are only 4 teams (Pitt, Wash, SJ and Chi) that have to be considered favourites to win the cup. Then there are about 4 teams (Van, NJ, and Buf and Detroit-always have to include them) that have an outside shot if everything falls together for them. Everyone else is looking for a miracle.

Now look at those top 4 and notice only SJ has built a team without missing the playoffs 3-5 years in a row.
As great as Pittsburgh was and still is because of those years, if in one of that year, they are unable to get a goalie or are unable to trade for one, they don't win. Reason why I don't see how you can put Wash and Chicago as amongst the top 4 favorites.....How many teams have won the Cup without an extraordinairy goalie or at least one who played like it during that time? Are Varlamov, Theodore, Huet or Niemi in that category? Maybe. But as of now, it doesn't fit the profile. On the other side, even SJ cannot be put in the easy top 4 with their playoff track record and especially the way Nabokov chokes year after year.

Yes, tanking is a better way to be a succesful team at one point. Having a superior goalie though is ALSO one of the reasons if not THE reason unless your name is Detroit though I believe that Osgood never got the credit he deserved.

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01-28-2010, 07:46 AM
  #70
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Sure, Martin might be part of the problem... but to be honest, I think people should be calling for Gainey's head instead.

During the second half of last season, we had the same exact problems. No heart, no passion, no grit, and abysmal offensively. So what did Gainey do? Got rid of over 10 players and changed the coaching staff. This year comes along, we have a completely different team, but the same problems persist. Some might argue that because of injuries the team never had time to gel, but when you're 55 games into the season, that can't be an excuse anymore. I think the real problem is that Gainey royally ****ed up. It's really that simple. He didn't just **** up last offseason, but he ****ed up the entire time he was here. He has mishandled every aspect of this team... Especially the prospect development department and the pro-scouting department. I don't really feel like going into details on those two cases, but I'd be shocked if the majority disagrees with me.

In my opinion, it's time for Mr. Gainey to move on, and let a fresh mind take over the team.

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01-28-2010, 07:51 AM
  #71
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Personally I think we have too many players that really need to look in the mirror.
I think some players do a bit too much of this.

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01-28-2010, 07:59 AM
  #72
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Was JM really Gainey's choice?

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01-28-2010, 08:22 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
As great as Pittsburgh was and still is because of those years, if in one of that year, they are unable to get a goalie or are unable to trade for one, they don't win. Reason why I don't see how you can put Wash and Chicago as amongst the top 4 favorites.....How many teams have won the Cup without an extraordinairy goalie or at least one who played like it during that time? Are Varlamov, Theodore, Huet or Niemi in that category? Maybe. But as of now, it doesn't fit the profile. On the other side, even SJ cannot be put in the easy top 4 with their playoff track record and especially the way Nabokov chokes year after year.

Yes, tanking is a better way to be a succesful team at one point. Having a superior goalie though is ALSO one of the reasons if not THE reason unless your name is Detroit though I believe that Osgood never got the credit he deserved.
I put them in the favourites because they are the teams that have the most assets that can take them all the way. They are also the most consistent thus far in the season. I agree that the Caps and Hawks have question marks in goal, but they are that good, it may be overcome as long as the goalie doesn't completely fall apart.

Anyways my point was, we can't be this hard on the Habs when they are clearly not even close to being contenders. They are but 1 of 26 teams that need a miracle to win the cup. Now granted, this organization has seen it's fair share of miracles. The last 3 cups are a tribute to that.

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01-28-2010, 08:39 AM
  #74
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Was JM really Gainey's choice?
Good question. Maybe he wanted Lemaire and someone overruled him.

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01-28-2010, 08:40 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by pam19 View Post
too early.
That's one of the reasons Martin will be leading this team to mediocrity and underachievement for at least another year.

Keeping this up for the sake of stability behind the bench is like rejoicing when you lose 10 games in a row because it's consistency.

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