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Is coaching the problem?

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Old
01-28-2010, 08:40 AM
  #76
CarrePrisme
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I don't know if Martin is the reason Habs lose but his system bores me to no end.

I'd rather lose a few more games than watch awfully boring games like these.

Sport is supposed to be entertaining.

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01-28-2010, 08:42 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Actually there's variations. Depending on how much you clog the neutral zone (the trap vs. Martin's system), how much pressure you put on attackers in your zone (which in Martin's system is often not a whole lot).

The key is the transition game, however, which allows you to counter-attack. But Martin stresses "safe" clears off the boards, so the transition game is very poor despite having some skilled passing defensemen. It happens far too often for me to believe that's not encouraged.
Those are small variations.
I disagree though, Martin is not about safe clearing through the boards. How many times did he say he wants to be a puck possession team??..You think he's saying this to the media and then telling his guys to clear it off the boards at first chance??..Makes no sense.

The system Martin is trying to implement is simply not respected. The guys were doing it earlier this season and it was promising. They were coming down low in our zone to help out the D and kept the passes short to break out. With the speed of our forwards, they should easily be able to go up.
We dominated teams with in terms of shots on goal when that was happening. Right now, our players seem lost, tired or disinterested.

You like to crap on Martin's system but I haven't seen it executed properly since earlier this year, when we did have a big number of injuries.
The past two games, our players had difficulties making decent passes to one another, that's not the system's fault.

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01-28-2010, 08:42 AM
  #78
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Julien, Gainey, Carbo, Gainey and now Martin...

at some point maybe it's not the coach but the players, and since the rosters been remodeled substantially, maybe it's the way the roster is being put together...

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01-28-2010, 08:44 AM
  #79
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What makes JM's system sooo frustrating is that, not only is it more boring than watching paint dry, but it doesn't seem very effective in the "new NHL".

Since the lock out, teams that pressure the puck and have a lot of posession seem to have more success. It's not so much that we trap, it's how passive we are in allowing teams easy access to the red line, plus the lack of coverage on the points. Plus by having your wingers in so deep, it makes it hard to generate odd man rushes because you have an extra 10-15 feet to skate up ice versus normal coverage for NHL wingers.

If you don't generate much on the forecheck...because you don't forecheck a lot...and you don't generate a lot of odd man rushes because your wingers are back in deep, that means you have to score a ton on puck posession plays where you have it for at least 15-20 seconds or on the PP.

A lack of forecheck and odd man rushes generated makes it hard to draw penalities also.

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01-28-2010, 08:47 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I disagree though, Martin is not about safe clearing through the boards. How many times did he say he wants to be a puck possession team??..You think he's saying this to the media and then telling his guys to clear it off the boards at first chance??..Makes no sense.
Head over to HabsInsideOut. There was a clip of Martin (in French) being asked to explain his system. In it Martin reiterates that he desires a puck possession team and that he feels it's best-suited to his small, skilled team... then spends the bulk of the clip explaining how chipping the puck (that is, giving up possession) is an important part of his puck possession system.

Martin either doesn't know or doesn't care what a puck possession team means. It's an empty buzzword to him. He's certainly not looking to implement a puck possession system in the way your or I would understand the term.

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We dominated teams with in terms of shots on goal when that was happening. Right now, our players seem lost, tired or disinterested.
The Habs outshot and outchanced teams earlier in the year back when they were more of a puck possession team, then Martin implemented his passive-defense approach, and well, they get dominated practically every game now. This is not on the players.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You like to crap on Martin's system but I haven't seen it executed properly since earlier this year, when we did have a big number of injuries.
Assuming that Martin's system isn't the crap that we've seen, it's just that he is completely incapable of having the team execute anything resembling a puck possession system even once... isn't that horrid preparation level on the coach anyway? He's either a terrible strategist or a terrible teacher.

Given his own comments, I'm tempted to lean towards broken system rather than bad teaching, but the team's preparation level is obviously deficient too so it could be it I guess.

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Old
01-28-2010, 08:48 AM
  #81
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Nothing to do with Martin . it's the personnel that Martin has been asked to lead.

As the pressure mounts to save the season and perhaps his own job, the possibility of Gainey giving us a very disappointing trade is growing. I think he should be removed before the end of the season .

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Old
01-28-2010, 08:55 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
That's one of the reasons Martin will be leading this team to mediocrity and underachievement for at least another year.

Keeping this up for the sake of stability behind the bench is like rejoicing when you lose 10 games in a row because it's consistency.
You keep saying this team is underachieving, but really, where did you expect them to be??..they're tied with 3 other teams for the 6th spot. Granted we played more games, but still, as of today it's a tie.
If you consider the numerous injuries we've suffered, it's a miracle we're still even battling for a POs spot.

Maybe you had too high expectations earlier and thought we'd be a top 6 team, but I didn't and especially not after losing Markov to a serious injury in Game 1.

Why can't you just see that we're simply not that good??..
We have an aging and slow defense. Spacek that should have been our best defensive signal has had difficulty adjusting to play on the right side. Gill and Mara are slow.
We've had trouble finding a top 6 player all year whether it's due to bad play or injuries. Right now, we have a bottom six with no defined role. We do not have a checking line. We do not have an energy line. Our top players are all small with the exception of Pouliot (A.Kost being injured). Small and not superstars might I add.

Maybe Martin should put Lappy/Metro/Moen together, make it our checking line and just roll 3 lines all the time. But this would fatigue even more the team that has played the most games in the NHL.


Last edited by Kriss E: 01-28-2010 at 09:12 AM.
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Old
01-28-2010, 09:08 AM
  #83
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Head over to HabsInsideOut. There was a clip of Martin (in French) being asked to explain his system. In it Martin reiterates that he desires a puck possession team and that he feels it's best-suited to his small, skilled team... then spends the bulk of the clip explaining how chipping the puck (that is, giving up possession) is an important part of his puck possession system.
When he's talking about chipping the puck, I'm assuming he's talking about the offensive zone. Outside Gomez, we don't really have players that can carry it in. So we have to dump it, otherwise our small players will easily be stopped at the blue line.

Martin can't be that dumb. He is one of the most experienced coaches. So I assume he knows what puck possession means.

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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Assuming that Martin's system isn't the crap that we've seen, it's just that he is completely incapable of having the team execute anything resembling a puck possession system even once... isn't that horrid preparation level on the coach anyway? He's either a terrible strategist or a terrible teacher.

Given his own comments, I'm tempted to lean towards broken system rather than bad teaching, but the team's preparation level is obviously deficient too so it could be it I guess.
Could be. Could be fatigued, could be that it takes more than a season to implement a system which would explain the ''inconsistency'' through games. Could be we have a bad mix of players. Could be some players having worse seasons than predicted. Could be a number of reasons.

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Old
01-28-2010, 09:08 AM
  #84
Max Levine
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Although I was surprised when Gainey nominated Jacques Martin as his new head coach, I am not going to blame his coaching abilities for the Habs average season thus far. But if you want to blame Gainey for the players he picked last summer when he had all this money to give away, just remember that Martin was also part of the selection process. It is as much Martin's team as it is Gainey's.

But I am not going to blame that selection. I think we got exactly what was expected from each of those players apart from Jaroslav Spacek (or was he overrated?). It was nonsense to anticipate a career season from everyone. Gomez, Cammalleri, Gionta, Moen, Gill and Mara are playing as expected. I'm happy with our first 2 lines when including AK. They're too small? They're still producing. Cammy is on his way to a 40-goal season; Gomez is almost at PPG in his last 20 games, Gionta was effective before his injury (little early to evaluate him now).

So what's left? Either the support or the system.

I have no clue what the system is and if it is being applied or not. I remember Martin talking about puck possession and, although I don't have stats for the past 10-15 games, I doubt we have improved that much in that department. Obviously, one has to adapt to the opponent's system in the course of the game. Much more difficult to control the puck against the trap, hence the puck dumping in so many games. But I've seen Montreal failing to adjust against other teams defending the puck dumping with a defenseman way back.

It's obvious that we're not getting as much from our 3rd and 4th lines as we did last year. Laps/Lats/Kosto were forming one of the best 3rd line in the East. Our 4th line would often find a way to keep the puck in the offensive zone, putting pressure on the defensemen. Sure it may sound absurd to put the blame on the supporting cast after we've only scored one goal in two games, but it is a team work. You can't expect the first lines to produce as much when we spend most of the game in our own zone.

Both the Panthers and the Lightning have been controlling the play. Their puck possession throughout the game must have been over 60%. This means that our defense was wasting a lot of energy running around. I saw a few counterattacks on our part developing with only one player against 2-3 defenders. Something else I noticed: when in control of the puck in the offensive zone, the player would have no alternatives whatsoever. Either his teammates were too far, or they weren't moving trying to get away from their cover.

I don't mind Martin. It's obvious to me that Guy Boucher is the future but I don't see him behind the bench after only one year in Hamilton. I do believe that this team is better than what they've shown in the last two games. In fact, this was probably their worst showing this season. Let's see if they can respond better against the Senators.

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Old
01-28-2010, 09:49 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You keep saying this team is underachieving, but really, where did you expect them to be??..they're tied with 3 other teams for the 6th spot. Granted we played more games, but still, as of today it's a tie.
Well, see, that's the problem. It's NOT a tie. The "official" standings, which don't account for games in hand, a misleading way of making us feel better about the team, but in reality, in terms of points percentage, Montreal is 13th in the East, just that.

On the bright side, we're currently on pace for a lottery draft position.

I imagine your expectations were higher than the draft lottery. If you think this is one of the five worst rosters in the NHL, please do let me know. Me, I expected them to be better than .500. I expected them to be eyeing a 95-point season. Granted the injuries hurt but notice how the team is still a .500 team despite Markov's return?

They're clearly underachieving, and rather badly, too.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Why can't you just see that we're simply not that good??..
Why can't you just see the coaching is terrible?

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Spacek that should have been our best defensive signal has had difficulty adjusting to play on the right side. Gill and Mara are slow.
Spacek and Hamrlik kept this team's D afloat all year, and still are as Markov struggles with getting back in synch and working in a system that stifles his best skills. This is a much better group than what Martin's having them perform. They look bad because Martin's passive system forces them to be on the defensive more than they ought to be.

Let me restate that. The Habs are currently a lottery team. I think expectations were slightly higher than that.

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Old
01-28-2010, 09:50 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
When he's talking about chipping the puck, I'm assuming he's talking about the offensive zone. Outside Gomez, we don't really have players that can carry it in. So we have to dump it, otherwise our small players will easily be stopped at the blue line.
So... that's not really a puck possession system, is it?

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Old
01-28-2010, 02:17 PM
  #87
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I know we already have 2 coaches under contract, but if we continue losing..something has to happen.

What if we lose 8 or 9 out of the next 10? Not saying it's going to happen but it's certainly a possibility.

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Old
01-28-2010, 02:38 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You keep saying this team is underachieving, but really, where did you expect them to be??..they're tied with 3 other teams for the 6th spot. Granted we played more games, but still, as of today it's a tie.
If you consider the numerous injuries we've suffered, it's a miracle we're still even battling for a POs spot.

Maybe you had too high expectations earlier and thought we'd be a top 6 team, but I didn't and especially not after losing Markov to a serious injury in Game 1.

Why can't you just see that we're simply not that good??..
We have an aging and slow defense. Spacek that should have been our best defensive signal has had difficulty adjusting to play on the right side. Gill and Mara are slow.
We've had trouble finding a top 6 player all year whether it's due to bad play or injuries. Right now, we have a bottom six with no defined role. We do not have a checking line. We do not have an energy line. Our top players are all small with the exception of Pouliot (A.Kost being injured). Small and not superstars might I add.

Maybe Martin should put Lappy/Metro/Moen together, make it our checking line and just roll 3 lines all the time. But this would fatigue even more the team that has played the most games in the NHL.
I just don't buy that we're a bad team. I don't buy that Buffalo and Ottawa defence is better than ours. Ottawa should have no puck moving defencemen and Buffalo is basically playing with 2 rookies and Steve Montador and Craig Rivet as their veteran d-men. No one in their right minds could tell me before the season began that these two defenses would be better than ours. Yet, because Ruff and Clouston know what the heck they're doing, both teams have exceeded expectations. They attack with 5 players and defend the same way. Martin seemingly does neither. We always seem to dominate games when we open the game; look at the Rangers game last week as a prime example. We play well when we let our horses run wild, not when we contain them. There's a reason why an all-star like Markov looks sub-par right now; he's being held back by this ridiculous system. Put him in Buffalo and he's probably a PPG player.

Martin is not a bad coach; he's just the wrong coach for this team.

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01-28-2010, 02:41 PM
  #89
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Last year was the PERFECT time to start a new chapter.

Coaching spot was available. Half the team was not coming back and plenty of cap space to build a team.

This is when Gainey should have been shown the door. He admitted he had no idea about the problems some kids on this team were having off-ice. And we are supposed to trust him in handling the Price situation which has gotten worse as time has gone on? This man is clearly not in touch with this generation and this new NHL.

We could have had a new man in charge, build a team the way HE wanted and he had all the money in the world to make it happen. He could have also chosen a coach that would fit the identity of the new team he would build.

Instead, we had Gainey stay to finish up his contract. He hired a coach that does not run a system that plays to the strenght of the players on this team.

Now we are left wondering if this team will make the playoffs AGAIN and if it will be another off-season where Gainey let's free agents walk for nothing in return AGAIN.

It is the same **** every year. Coaches have come and gone, players have come and gone and only one man remains(include his entire staff of supposed "professional scouts" as well). It is time for them to GTFO!

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01-28-2010, 02:48 PM
  #90
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i'm used to losing in florida, why is everyone so shocked?

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Old
01-28-2010, 07:24 PM
  #91
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Is Martin THE problem? He may be one of them

On the other hand am I happy with his style? Nope.

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01-28-2010, 07:41 PM
  #92
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Guys... Seriously. WTF with that fire Martin ****? Are you JC Lajoie clones?

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01-28-2010, 08:08 PM
  #93
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Habs sit 2nd in PP%, 7th in PK%, 11th in GAA, and are the highest scoring team 4 on 4 or at least in the top 5 if I'm not mistaken. All very good things, which credit has to be given to the players/coaches. However, they are 2nd last in 5/5 goals per game (0.79), which is awful, and tied for second fewest goals for per game (2.49). Blame must go to both the players/coaches. However, I would tip the scale for poor 5/5 play against JM's coaching style.

Playing a passive style like they did both games in Florida results in 1 goal in 2 games. An aggressive style like they played last weekend resulted in 9 goals in 2 games. No forecheck = no speed = no offence and we see this far too often, and that comes down to coaching. Don't think for a minute that guys like Gomez, Gionta, Pouliot, Cammalleri, and Pleks want to sit back, and not push their offensive games. These are offensive players who want to score and be difference makers for this team. I actually think it's a miracle Cammy has scored as much as he has within JM's passive style. No, JM doesn't need to be fired, but he does need to open up the offence. Not sure what he has to lose at this point, especially after watching the team's last 4 games. Still lots of time left, still some really bright spots on this team, and it's what we have, so might as well hope for improvements rather than wish for a firing that ain't gonna happen.

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Old
01-28-2010, 08:09 PM
  #94
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Last year was the PERFECT time to start a new chapter.

Coaching spot was available. Half the team was not coming back and plenty of cap space to build a team.

This is when Gainey should have been shown the door. He admitted he had no idea about the problems some kids on this team were having off-ice. And we are supposed to trust him in handling the Price situation which has gotten worse as time has gone on? This man is clearly not in touch with this generation and this new NHL.

We could have had a new man in charge, build a team the way HE wanted and he had all the money in the world to make it happen. He could have also chosen a coach that would fit the identity of the new team he would build.

Instead, we had Gainey stay to finish up his contract. He hired a coach that does not run a system that plays to the strenght of the players on this team.

Now we are left wondering if this team will make the playoffs AGAIN and if it will be another off-season where Gainey let's free agents walk for nothing in return AGAIN.

It is the same **** every year. Coaches have come and gone, players have come and gone and only one man remains(include his entire staff of supposed "professional scouts" as well). It is time for them to GTFO!
And its time for someone to find more hobbies.

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Old
01-28-2010, 09:35 PM
  #95
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I absolutely think Martin is the problem. I point to the following article from last June, right after he was hired. I agreed then and I agree even more now.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists...48381-sun.html

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01-28-2010, 10:25 PM
  #96
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How did this turn into a Gainey bashing thread? Seriously? Without a doubt, Bob Gainey has the HARDEST job in professional hockey. Between the French and the taxes, he has his hands tied behind his back at all times.

His coaching choices are limited to those who speak French (very few good ones), he has no choice but to overpay free agents because Montreal is the most highly taxed municipality in all of North America, and he has to lure in players who can deal with living in a partially French environment and who can deal with the media and intense pressure of playing in Montreal. If you're a hockey player who grew up outside of Quebec and/or rooting against the Habs, in all honesty, why would you want to play for them when your job is much easier in any of the 29 other cities?

To anyone who said Bob Gainey has done a bad job and is the problem: get a clue! Say what you want about his five year plan, but if building a contender was as easy as he made it sound, then we would have a league of world beaters. Welcome to reality!

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01-29-2010, 01:05 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
That's one of the reasons Martin will be leading this team to mediocrity and underachievement for at least another year.

Keeping this up for the sake of stability behind the bench is like rejoicing when you lose 10 games in a row because it's consistency.
Its why Ottawa finished first with Martin? hehe! Bad argument...

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01-29-2010, 01:16 AM
  #98
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Its why Ottawa finished first with Martin? hehe! Bad argument...
Rule changes ruined Martin's system.

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01-29-2010, 01:18 AM
  #99
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What makes JM's system sooo frustrating is that, not only is it more boring than watching paint dry, but it doesn't seem very effective in the "new NHL".
Since the lock out, teams that pressure the puck and have a lot of posession seem to have more success. It's not so much that we trap, it's how passive we are in allowing teams easy access to the red line, plus the lack of coverage on the points. Plus by having your wingers in so deep, it makes it hard to generate odd man rushes because you have an extra 10-15 feet to skate up ice versus normal coverage for NHL wingers.

If you don't generate much on the forecheck...because you don't forecheck a lot...and you don't generate a lot of odd man rushes because your wingers are back in deep, that means you have to score a ton on puck posession plays where you have it for at least 15-20 seconds or on the PP.

A lack of forecheck and odd man rushes generated makes it hard to draw penalities also.
You hit it right on the button. JM is an old school type of coach and his antiquated tactics aren't productive anymore. I think Boucher and his new school approach will be much more condusive to the new NHL.

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01-29-2010, 01:25 AM
  #100
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I absolutely think Martin is the problem. I point to the following article from last June, right after he was hired. I agreed then and I agree even more now.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists...48381-sun.html
Great article! It definitely sums my opinions on JM except for the french-english bit. I think Guy Boucher could do a more impressive job and he's perfectly bilingual.

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