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Old
01-28-2010, 12:23 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by js10 View Post
NO, I am comparing systems, structures, schemes, strategies.. whatever you call it. We are completely lost in this area. Play is chaotic, no one knows what is his job, where should he be. I was at the game with Pittsburgh.. Even the warm-ups are different, making sense at their side, ours just stink. It is all connected.. chaotic practices will give you chaotic play. and that is what I see there day in, day out. That is coaching thing... make players play better. Not this cr*p.

If you take into account personal issues, you have nothing to lose. Look at Washington and Pittsburgh, what coach change brought them. Exactly that thing I am expecting with Rangers. Reorganize attitude (or lack off) in the dressing room, do a change in everything that stinks.
Are you at the practices? How do you know how chaotic they are or aren't? Pittsburgh is better in their zone because they have talent and playmakers. They pass well because they have Crosby and/or Malkin at center more than half the time. The guys are where they need to be because they know the rewards of being in position, they know that they have a superstar playmaker on the ice with them and that good things will happen when they try and get in position.

Do you really think that a championship coach doesn't know to communicate to his players where they should be and what they should do on the ice?

Why is it a coaches fault that his players, who are professional hockey players who have played this sport their ENTIRE lives, don't know where they should be? Even if he doesn't tell them or whatever you're implying (and thats a huge, huge "if"), they should still have an idea of how to play the game. Our warm ups stink? Please. Seems to me you already decided its Torts' fault and now you're trying to justify it.

You expect a coaching change to work here like it did in Washington and Pitt? Yeah, that happened last time we had a coaching change...oh wait, that was a season ago...and here we are.

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01-28-2010, 12:24 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
I know you are kidding, at least I hope you are, but Torts clearly had a major problem with what happened with Carcillo and Gaborik as evidenced by his post game remarks, there isn't much more he can do short of jumping on the ice and kicking his ass himself, he even gave Laviolette a piece of his mind too from the bench

What else do people expect from this guy? By reading some posters comments it seems Torts is expected to win faceoffs, play defense, take the man and hit, pass, shoot, score, go to the net, and fight/protect the players
I don't blame Torts, he was the wrong hire for this team to begin with. He's better off with a team thats built to win now.

I'm just disappointed the Torts fans didn't show up and admit that Renney really wasn't the problem with this team, its the guy behind the curtain

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01-28-2010, 12:24 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
I know you are kidding, at least I hope you are, but Torts clearly had a major problem with what happened with Carcillo and Gaborik as evidenced by his post game remarks, there isn't much more he can do short of jumping on the ice and kicking his ass himself, he even gave Laviolette a piece of his mind too from the bench

What else do people expect from this guy? By reading some posters comments it seems Torts is expected to win faceoffs, play defense, take the man and hit, pass, shoot, score, go to the net, and fight/protect the players
Lets get one thing straight. Tortorella, in his post-game comments, had a problem with what Carcillo did. We have no idea how he felt about his teams lack of response because he didnt comment on it, as usual.

As for the second part, I expect him to motivate this team enough so they show constant effort. Its the only ****ing thing hes supposed to be good at it, because lets face it, Tortorella has a very limited hockey mind. He was brought in to be a motivator and this team, while they do suck from a talent standpoint, doesnt show up most nights. What the hell do you think his job is?

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01-28-2010, 12:25 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
I don't blame Torts, he was the wrong hire for this team to begin with. He's better off with a team thats built to win now.

I'm just disappointed the Torts fans didn't show up and admit that Renney really wasn't the problem with this team, its the guy behind the curtain
Fair enough, although I know I have blamed Sather, I can't really fault you for feeling that way

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01-28-2010, 12:31 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
I'm just disappointed the Torts fans didn't show up and admit that Renney really wasn't the problem with this team, its the guy behind the curtain
Why are they mutually exclusive? I liked Renney and was sorry to see him go, but the day he coaches a team to a Stanley Cup victory is the day I'll feel the slightest bit of regret about him not being here.

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01-28-2010, 12:32 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
As for the second part, I expect him to motivate this team enough so they show constant effort. Its the only ****ing thing hes supposed to be good at it, because lets face it, Tortorella has a very limited hockey mind. He was brought in to be a motivator and this team, while they do suck from a talent standpoint, doesnt show up most nights. What the hell do you think his job is?
A man who wins a Stanley Cup, regardless of what superstars you think he had to work with, does not have a limited hockey mind, I'm sorry. I liked Renney but he won nothing yet some seem to think he was a great hockey mind, seems a little biased and unfair. Win a cup and you're a moron, win nothing and you're a genius?

And maybe these players just can't be motivated, maybe they are losers, ever consider that fact instead of blaming a guy who can only work with what he has

His job is to coach and instruct and to a certain extent motivate but some people just can't be reached no matter how hard you try, what else exactly should he be doing to motivate them? Any answers on that one? Cause Renney went the nice route and Torts went the not so nice route and guess what, same results!

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01-28-2010, 12:38 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
I know you are kidding, at least I hope you are, but Torts clearly had a major problem with what happened with Carcillo and Gaborik as evidenced by his post game remarks, there isn't much more he can do short of jumping on the ice and kicking his ass himself, he even gave Laviolette a piece of his mind too from the bench

What else do people expect from this guy? By reading some posters comments it seems Torts is expected to win faceoffs, play defense, take the man and hit, pass, shoot, score, go to the net, and fight/protect the players
How about playing Brashear? Its one of the few games he may have proved useful.

Secondly, I believe (pure speculation on my part) that up to the Philly game, Torts had the Rangers scared to death to take any type of penalty that could be considered overly agressive or not smart. Girardi stood there while the our star got mugged.Partly because he choked and partly because the "uh-oh am I gonna get screamed at by my coach if I jump in" factored in his descision making process.

I blame both.

Torts had to speak to the team in the lockerroom to reiterate that those types of penalties are expected and absolutely condoned. Why would Girardi not know this??

We can use that "how is it the coaches fault" when players don't execute on the ice. Ron Low, Bryan Trottier, and Tom Renney all said the same stuff."I can't make them execute the fundamentals of our system on the ice".

Personally I can deal with a team without talent. I can't deal with a team that plays soft and does not go to war for each other.

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01-28-2010, 12:40 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
Why are they mutually exclusive? I liked Renney and was sorry to see him go, but the day he coaches a team to a Stanley Cup victory is the day I'll feel the slightest bit of regret about him not being here.
I'm a Renney fan and even I say Renney might not have been the one to get us there. But he was perfect for his time here, just didnt think the players who gave up on him shouldve won out, he had done more for this franchise than them until that point. But you can't fire all those hard working players right?

Right now, almost a year later, with Gaborik, the team has problems scoring, problems with the PP, and they're losing games badly. And that took less time to happen under Torts, a coach that is a total opposite of Renney.

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01-28-2010, 12:44 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
A man who wins a Stanley Cup, regardless of what superstars you think he had to work with, does not have a limited hockey mind, I'm sorry. I liked Renney but he won nothing yet some seem to think he was a great hockey mind, seems a little biased and unfair. Win a cup and you're a moron, win nothing and you're a genius?

And maybe these players just can't be motivated, maybe they are losers, ever consider that fact instead of blaming a guy who can only work with what he has

His job is to coach and instruct and to a certain extent motivate but some people just can't be reached no matter how hard you try, what else exactly should he be doing to motivate them? Any answers on that one? Cause Renney went the nice route and Torts went the not so nice route and guess what, same results!
The fact that people keep bringing up the Stanley Cup with a stacked Tampa team in a different era of hockey is a joke. It has pretty much no basis on whats going on here. And here, Tortorella is looking much more like his .500 career record as a head coach than some top notch guy.

The Renney situation was completely different. He did what he thought was best for the organization and employed a defensive system due to the lack of talent. What did Renney in were philosophical differences in the way the team should be playing. A few ****heads (Gomez and Zherdev to name a couple who, coincidentally, are gone now) thought they were better than they actually were and thought they deserved a more offensive orientated system.

At least we can pinpoint a reason there. Can you tell me why Tortorella isnt getting through to this team at all? My guess is he is a brash, polarizing ******* that is hated by the majority of this lockerroom, but thats just me.


Last edited by Bleed Ranger Blue: 01-28-2010 at 12:49 PM.
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Old
01-28-2010, 12:49 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The fact that people keep bringing up the Stanley Cup with a stacked Tampa team in a different era of hockey is a joke. It has pretty much no basis on whats going on here. And here, Tortorella is looking much more like his .500 career record as a head coach than some top notch guy.

The Renney situation was completely different. He did what he thought was best for the organization and employed a defensive system due to the lack of talent. What did Renney in were philosophical differences in the way the team should be playing. A few ****heads (Gomez and Zherdev to name a couple who, coincidentally, are gone now) thought they were better than they actually were and thought they deserved a more offensive orientated system.

At least we can pinpoint a reason there. Can you tell me why Tortorella isnt getting through to this team at all? My guess is he is a brash, polarizing ******* that he hated by the majority of this lockerroom, but thats just me.
First of all its not a joke, its a fact whether it supports your opinion or not. I guess we should just take away the Rangers only cup in 70 years because it was pre lockout? I guess all the coaches from before the lockout are all irrelevant?

And second, maybe, like I stated earlier, this team can't be reached or motivated, why does everyone leave this point out of the possible equation? If you are gonna bash Sather for bringing these guys here then how can you blame Torts for their shortcomings as professional athletes?

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01-28-2010, 12:51 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
First of all its not a joke, its a fact whether it supports your opinion or not. I guess we should just take away the Rangers only cup in 70 years because it was pre lockout? I guess all the coaches from before the lockout are all irrelevant?

And second, maybe, like I stated earlier, this team can't be reached or motivated, why does everyone leave this point out of the possible equation? If you are gonna bash Sather for bringing these guys here then how can you blame Torts for their shortcomings as professional athletes?
Probably has something to do with the fact that, literally, half the roster is different from last season.

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01-28-2010, 01:01 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Probably has something to do with the fact that, literally, half the roster is different from last season.
So what? The big money, cap eating unmotivated players still exsist except for Gomez and to a lesser extent Zherdev.

Why is it so hard to believe that these guys can't be reached? Does their play really show you otherwise?

Is he supposed to motivate guys to hit the net? That has to do with talent not if someone is on your ass or not

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01-28-2010, 01:40 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
So what? The big money, cap eating unmotivated players still exsist except for Gomez and to a lesser extent Zherdev.

Why is it so hard to believe that these guys can't be reached? Does their play really show you otherwise?

Is he supposed to motivate guys to hit the net? That has to do with talent not if someone is on your ass or not
Listen, I agree to an extent. Ive been whining about this teams talent level since the beginning of the 08-09 season.

But Tortorella, by Gaborik's addition alone, has a more talented team in his hand than what Renney started with last season....to absolve him of any and all blame is ridiculous.

Especially cause Im convinced that the guy who was creamed on this board last year for stifling the team would be doing a better job than Tortorella and his act right now.

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01-28-2010, 01:50 PM
  #89
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An elite goalie, an elite forward and an average defense almost automatically makes this team mediocre. The pieces you add determine whether they will stay mediocre, be a good team or be a great team.

The Boston Bruins did it for years. Granted they had Bourque and Neely, but they certainly didnt have star power at forward. They had three full lines of muckers and grinder and a decent goalie in Moog.

We also did it in 2006. Jagr, Nylander, Henrik and a bunch of pluggers and grinders with a no-name defense.

To me, it's a matter of effort. It's already been established that all these guys have NOTHING to prove. Callahahan and Avery are the only guys whose work ethic can never be questioned. The rest of the team, including the rookies and gaborik, are suspect.

Brooks is right. The team is corrupted within the locker room, not the front office and behind the bench
Scipio, it seems to me you're describing competitiveness. Effort level being equal, more often the not the team with the slight talent edge will win out. Boston hasn't won anything in donkey years and we're well into our second decade without a realistic chance of achieving greatness. Not to mention, the on ice product will be pretty boring with dump and chase, clutch and grab defense first hockey. I would take a skill team over worker-grunts every day of the week.

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01-28-2010, 02:38 PM
  #90
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firing tortorella wont prove anything. sather needs to go

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01-28-2010, 02:42 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Especially cause Im convinced that the guy who was creamed on this board last year for stifling the team would be doing a better job than Tortorella and his act right now.
As convinced as those who believed that Tortorella would add more offense?

I don't believe Renney would have much more success than Torts. Yes it's probably true that the Rangers have more talent than last years team, but as a TEAM, they stink.

Look over the roster...these guys are manufactured for failure. Whereas Renney was able to fall back on a defensive style when he believed that offensive production would be scarce, Torts doesn't have that luxury. This newest installment of the Rangers not only doesn't have the horses to be a good offensive team, but they also don't have the horses to play a consistently good defensive game either. They lost defensive forwards like Betts, Sjostrom, and Korpikoski. Who have they been replaced with? Boyle, Lisin & Huggy Bear! C'mon now. Then you look at the defense and see the usual suspects plus 2 rookies. Gilroy does his best to mimick Redden and Del Zotto is more raw on D than most people want to admit.

Torts has nowhere to run to with this roster. Can they compete harder? Yes. But are they going to be a good hockey team? Not happening.

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01-28-2010, 02:46 PM
  #92
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We can talk all we want about the boys needing to be more competitive and how we need more traffice going to the net ect.... But can some one please explain to me what was going through Torts' head when he decided to jugle the lines and came up with burying Dubi not only on wing, but with Drury and a guy that has been a healty scratch for the last 5 games?!?!? We got showed some life when Dubi was out with Avery and, yes, Higgins of all people, but apperently that was only worthy of one shift. Benching Redden at this stage of the game is far from what he needs to do to shake things up as well. Look, I thought safe was death, and if we are looking at changing our mentality and revamping how we play, didn't we fire one of the best defensive system coaches in Renney?

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01-28-2010, 02:49 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
As convinced as those who believed that Tortorella would add more offense?

I don't believe Renney would have much more success than Torts. Yes it's probably true that the Rangers have more talent than last years team, but as a TEAM, they stink.

Look over the roster...these guys are manufactured for failure. Whereas Renney was able to fall back on a defensive style when he believed that offensive production would be scarce, Torts doesn't have that luxury. This newest installment of the Rangers not only doesn't have the horses to be a good offensive team, but they also don't have the horses to play a consistently good defensive game either. They lost defensive forwards like Betts, Sjostrom, and Korpikoski. Who have they been replaced with? Boyle, Lisin & Huggy Bear! C'mon now. Then you look at the defense and see the usual suspects plus 2 rookies. Gilroy does his best to mimick Redden and Del Zotto is more raw on D than most people want to admit.

Torts has nowhere to run to with this roster. Can they compete harder? Yes. But are they going to be a good hockey team? Not happening.
1. I dont think its that Torts doesnt have the luxury, I think its that he doesnt have the knowledge

2. Lets not kid ourselves, the roster moves you speak of have Torts' fingerprints all over them.

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01-28-2010, 02:49 PM
  #94
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Torts Must Go! Torts Must Go!

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01-28-2010, 03:05 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
1. I dont think its that Torts doesnt have the luxury, I think its that he doesnt have the knowledge

2. Lets not kid ourselves, the roster moves you speak of have Torts' fingerprints all over them.
I'm sure your right. 15 or so years as a coach or assistant coach in the NHL and he doesn't have the 'knowledge' to play a 1-2-2 or 1-4. Afterall, the trap is the most sophisticated system in hockey of course...

2 offensive minded rookies on D has Torts finger prints all over them? What kind of choice does he have when the GM doesn't even have enough foresight to sign a 7th defensemen.

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01-28-2010, 03:15 PM
  #96
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Could be wrong, but I believe that Torts had a moderate amount of say in the building of this team for this year.

I believe that Torts had no problem with cutting loose Freddy, Betts, and Orr.

I believe that Torts wanted Brashear. Korps for Lisin? Don't know about that one.

Either way with or without these moves, this team is still a weak one.

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01-28-2010, 06:18 PM
  #97
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I'm with Bluenote. Torts really isn't the problem here. Unfortunately everyone is looking to point a couple fingers, but all roads lead to one place. First, you can blame the flawed construction of the team. That blame sits on Sather. Second, you can blame the players for not trying. You can blame the coach, or the captain, for that. But ultimately, you can blame Sather for hiring the coach and for hiring the captain and putting together that team (tried the coaching change last season too - see a trend here?).

I'm not here to say Torts is a great coach. Honestly, it's tough to tell. What I do know is that this team is flawed in its construction. The pieces do not make sense. There really isn't much here to work with as we've seen some flashes, but those flashes only work if Gaborik and Lundqvist are on fire as everyone seems to follow their play. Perhaps Torts is not the right guy for the job. Perhaps this isn't the right team for him. Perhaps there aren't many others who can do better than Torts either which leads us once again to Sather, which I think we all believe is not going to be dealt with, unfortunately.

I do admit that Torts doesn't seem to be pushing all the right buttons (I mean, you want Drury to score on the PP so he centers Lisin and Anisimov - Drury should've been the left wing with Prospal in the middle and Gaborik on the right to begin the season). But, this team has little margin of error, and a lot of things (Redden - who I believe he's tried to motivate) are just out of his control. It's a ****show to say the least.

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01-28-2010, 06:38 PM
  #98
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I'm with Bluenote and Fletch. There isn't a coach in the world that could get this group to win. Lets think about it. You've got 2 rookie d-men, 2 others who have less than 3 full seasons in the NHL and the remaining 2 play like they are trying to lose their jobs in the NHL. Thats a d-corp thats going to got through its growing pains. They are going to have games when they are absolutely lost out there.

Next lets look at the forwards. You don't have a #1 center. You don't have much size and other than Gaborik no one thats going to consistently put the puck in the net. Your captain is barely playing like a third liner right now. Can anyone honestly say they are surprised we can't score goals. Lets face it how many fans realistically expected us to compete this year???

Having Henrik in net and a goal scorer like Gaborik can cover many flaws. However, in the end this team, as currently built, has no chance of competing on a nightly basis. The only thing I ask, and what has really turned me off of this team, is that they compete every night. These guys don't! Too many times they just lay down and look like they don't give a crap.

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01-28-2010, 06:45 PM
  #99
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Thats the thing Jersey, they can hardly put together a full 60 minutes of dominant hockey. Every team thats in contention at least has a few of those under their belt, seems like we don't have one. Maybe i'm exaggerating a bit, but I seriously can't remember when this team looked hungry for a win the full 60. The Devil game a few weeks ago came close.

Even the pretty mediocre teams of the 1980's had fight in them. They were far from talented so they got by on grit and speed, north and south.

In the end its just a mish mash of varying player types, too little talent, but more importanttly not enough toughness or confidence in their play.

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01-28-2010, 06:50 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Thats the thing Jersey, they can hardly put together a full 60 minutes of dominant hockey. Every team thats in contention at least has a few of those under their belt, seems like we don't have one. Maybe i'm exaggerating a bit, but I seriously can't remember when this team looked hungry for a win the full 60. The Devil game a few weeks ago came close.

Even the pretty mediocre teams of the 1980's had fight in them. They were far from talented so they got by on grit and speed, north and south.

In the end its just a mish mash of varying player types, too little talent, but more importanttly not enough toughness or confidence in their play.
The last New York Rangers team that, throughout the course of the entire season, played good, fundamentally sound, creative hockey more often than not was the Cup team. None of Sather's teams have been great, and since the lockout, you can hardly call anyone of them teams. It's all Lundqvist and either Jagr, Gaborik, or in the case of last season, no one. Just Lundqvist. It's a one man team, and a team that can't even develop anything resembling a proper cycle in the other team's zone more than one or two times a game.

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