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Is coaching the problem?

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Old
01-29-2010, 03:12 AM
  #101
ccgg
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Originally Posted by shakenbake7 View Post
Rule changes ruined Martin's system.
With 4 months... you can say that? Its like "Price is garbage because he is not Patrick Roy at 21"...

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01-29-2010, 03:32 AM
  #102
HarlemsFinest
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but patrick roy was patrick roy at 21. price=bust

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01-29-2010, 09:34 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by ccgg View Post
With 4 months... you can say that? Its like "Price is garbage because he is not Patrick Roy at 21"...
His system wasn't any good with the post-lockout Panthers, either. Luongo got shelled night after night.

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01-29-2010, 09:45 AM
  #104
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The problem isn't the coach, it's the fans and the media expecting this team to win the cup or something. Get real.

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01-29-2010, 10:17 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
The problem isn't the coach, it's the fans and the media expecting this team to win the cup or something. Get real.
I don't expect the team to win the Cup. On the other hand, I expect this team to be better than a lottery team. I don't think this expectation is excessive.

Right now, the Habs are a lottery team.

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01-29-2010, 01:42 PM
  #106
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This team is basically a few months old : half the team was replace and they hired a new coach. Good teams are stable team, with a stable identity. This team needs some time to create it's identity and some changes will be necessary, but I don't believe they should undergo through some major changes...again. We need stability and Martin needs some time with his players.

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01-29-2010, 02:20 PM
  #107
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I'm worried that keeping this up for the sake of stability will be a lot like losing 3-2 or playing crappy every game for the sake of consistency.

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01-29-2010, 02:43 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Quarantesix View Post
Martin said that he want his team to play like the Red Wings but all he was able to do so far it's to change the Habs into the last year Panthers
I think you don't know the Western standing, because the Red Wings aren't in playoffs at this present. Then, Martin's team playing like Red Wings, he's right!

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01-30-2010, 09:41 AM
  #109
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On Off The Record yesterday there was some discussion about the Habs. A few comments:

"Halak has not only played better than Price, he's played A LOT better then Price" - Landsberg

"Gainey paid 100 million for a group of players that are smaller than me - it's not looking good for 5 years" - Ray Ferraro

"Gainey has come this far supporting Price, he won't stop now" - Steve Simmons

Gainey has to be accountable for this team, and needs to step down or not be re-signed this summer. This season isn't JM's fault , clearly.

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01-30-2010, 10:00 AM
  #110
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The Bruins have a similiar record to the Habs. Their problem isn't goaltending either.

Is the problem the coach?

Just asking the question because I like both Claude Julien and Jacques Martin.

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01-30-2010, 10:18 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Chili View Post
The Bruins have a similiar record to the Habs. Their problem isn't goaltending either.

Is the problem the coach?
Their problem is lack of scorers. It was their problem two years ago, then they had a bumper season where everyone had a strong year. Then they went and traded away their top goal-scorer. I'd , but it was a good deal for the long term.

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01-30-2010, 10:21 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
I just don't buy that we're a bad team. I don't buy that Buffalo and Ottawa defence is better than ours. Ottawa should have no puck moving defencemen and Buffalo is basically playing with 2 rookies and Steve Montador and Craig Rivet as their veteran d-men. No one in their right minds could tell me before the season began that these two defenses would be better than ours. Yet, because Ruff and Clouston know what the heck they're doing, both teams have exceeded expectations. They attack with 5 players and defend the same way. Martin seemingly does neither. We always seem to dominate games when we open the game; look at the Rangers game last week as a prime example. We play well when we let our horses run wild, not when we contain them. There's a reason why an all-star like Markov looks sub-par right now; he's being held back by this ridiculous system. Put him in Buffalo and he's probably a PPG player.

Martin is not a bad coach; he's just the wrong coach for this team.
I didn't say we're a bad team. I said after looking at the team play since game 1, we are where we should be. Sure maybe things would have been different if we didn't suffer a number of key injuries, but we can't change that now.

Ottawa's defense on paper isn't better, but Ottawa has a certain Alfredsson. They haven't lost since his return btw. Most importantly though, they have role lines. Their 3rd and 4th line have a purpose, not ours. Elliot has been solid during their hot streak too.
I wonder, what were you saying about the Sens before??..They were right there with us at #8 before winning 8 in a row. They didn't change systems halfway through.

Buffalo has someone called Miller. Just like Jersey have someone called Brodeur. Those two teams each have one of the best goalies in the league. Both have very different systems though. In Buffalo they have the green line to attack, in Jersey they're conservative and focus on defense. Both teams are part of the best in the East.

I don't get your point about Markov. Any Dman is advantage from playing in a defensive system, not the other way around.
Markov has looked good offensively, bu struggled a little defensively, it has nothing to do with the system in place.

Listen, I'm not going to argue that if we had a offensive system it'd be more interesting, that much is obvious. But I just don't think that's the difference between Habs tied for 7th to Habs well in place at 5th.
Plekanec is not having a problem setting up his career year. Cammy is on pace to tie his goal scoring record. Halak is playing as good as ever. A.Kost was on a completely hot streak before going down. Pouliot is showing why he was an early first round pick. Hamrlik was an absolute beast earlier this year. Gorges keeps becoming better and better overall.
I mean, most of our top players are doing their part and playing well.

Our problem is depth.

Sure had a 2-3pts more maybe if we had an offensive system, but I don't think it'd make such a huge difference. Look at where the Rangers are. Look where Philly is. If the players don't want to play the system and so put a mediocre effort out there, then that's very different.

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Old
01-30-2010, 10:30 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I didn't say we're a bad team. I said after looking at the team play since game 1, we are where we should be. Sure maybe things would have been different if we didn't suffer a number of key injuries, but we can't change that now.

Ottawa's defense on paper isn't better, but Ottawa has a certain Alfredsson. They haven't lost since his return btw. Most importantly though, they have role lines. Their 3rd and 4th line have a purpose, not ours. Elliot has been solid during their hot streak too.
I wonder, what were you saying about the Sens before??..They were right there with us at #8 before winning 8 in a row. They didn't change systems halfway through.

Buffalo has someone called Miller. Just like Jersey have someone called Brodeur. Those two teams each have one of the best goalies in the league. Both have very different systems though. In Buffalo they have the green line to attack, in Jersey they're conservative and focus on defense. Both teams are part of the best in the East.

I don't get your point about Markov. Any Dman is advantage from playing in a defensive system, not the other way around.
Markov has looked good offensively, bu struggled a little defensively, it has nothing to do with the system in place.

Listen, I'm not going to argue that if we had a offensive system it'd be more interesting, that much is obvious. But I just don't think that's the difference between Habs tied for 7th to Habs well in place at 5th.
Plekanec is not having a problem setting up his career year. Cammy is on pace to tie his goal scoring record. Halak is playing as good as ever. A.Kost was on a completely hot streak before going down. Pouliot is showing why he was an early first round pick. Hamrlik was an absolute beast earlier this year. Gorges keeps becoming better and better overall.
I mean, most of our top players are doing their part and playing well.

Our problem is depth.

Sure had a 2-3pts more maybe if we had an offensive system, but I don't think it'd make such a huge difference. Look at where the Rangers are. Look where Philly is. If the players don't want to play the system and so put a mediocre effort out there, then that's very different.
I agree, the team is just one giant hodge podge of players. When you have to insert defencemen as forwards into your lineup, you have a serious issue. They don't have a clear cut 3rd and 4th line. The D is old and slow. Goaltending is really not the issue this time.

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Old
01-30-2010, 10:35 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Their problem is lack of scorers. It was their problem two years ago, then they had a bumper season where everyone had a strong year. Then they went and traded away their top goal-scorer. I'd , but it was a good deal for the long term.
Funny thing though, they were 1st in the conference in goals last season, even ahead of the Caps. That's why they thought they could deal Kessel. After watching him in the playoffs the last two years I knew they would miss him too but this much? They've gone from 2nd in goals scored last season to 30th this year.

I think their problems are deeper then Claude Julien, just as I believe the Habs problems go much deeper then Jacques Martin.

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01-30-2010, 10:41 AM
  #115
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I'd be more inclined to blame depth if the top of the lineup didn't get torched every game too. They get outchanced, outshot, outdone, it's just that they have more opportunities to look better.

The system makes bottom-6 players look especially bad. It's hard enough to score 5-on-5, but Martin's system limits 5-on-5 chances for (much more than chances against), so it takes special talent to generate offense with so few chances. So the top of the lineup gets all the offense, and gets power play time on an excellent power play that brings their boxcar numbers up to their usual standards (rather than push them into the stratosphere). The bottom six just aren't good enough to score too many goals on two scoring chances a game, and they don't get the PP time to make up for it -- except Metropolit, who plays the PP. That makes the bottom six look weak in scoring and the top six look fine, but everyone not named Cammalleri is actually pretty weak in 5-on-5 scoring.

This is why a player like Latendresse, who was actually a good 5-on-5 scorer, was stifled under Martin and exploded as soon as he was elsewhere. This is why the bottom 6 sucks no matter who is tried there -- sure, there may be a depth problem too, but that they don't have anybody who can score from the bottom line, including guys who've been able to in the past?

Why is Ottawa doing better? Better coaching, plain and simple. Clouston is getting Jack Adams talk lately. Yeah, having Alffie is nice, but that roster isn't stronger than Montreal's, and certainly not their blueline. Filip Kuba is their #1 defenseman, and while he's a good player, he's certainly no Markov! And it goes down from there.

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01-30-2010, 10:44 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemsFinest View Post
but patrick roy was patrick roy at 21. price=bust
Who are you? The BUST police?

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Old
01-30-2010, 10:44 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Chili View Post
I think their problems are deeper then Claude Julien, just as I believe the Habs problems go much deeper then Jacques Martin.
I think their problem is that their entire team played way over their heads last year and people thought they were really that good. They weren't.

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01-30-2010, 10:50 AM
  #118
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Why is Ottawa doing better? Better coaching, plain and simple. Clouston is getting Jack Adams talk lately. Yeah, having Alffie is nice, but that roster isn't stronger than Montreal's, and certainly not their blueline. Filip Kuba is their #1 defenseman, and while he's a good player, he's certainly no Markov! And it goes down from there.
The Sens have Phillips and Volchenkov to throw out against the top forwards in the league. The Habs have no one close to that. I don't see a Mike Fisher on the Habs. I like their bottom lines better. Now that they're getting the goaltending, plus getting healthy, they're winning.

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Old
01-30-2010, 10:53 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I think their problem is that their entire team played way over their heads last year and people thought they were really that good. They weren't.
Tougher to be the hunted rather then the hunter. They are following the Habs path from last year very well at this point.

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Old
01-30-2010, 03:05 PM
  #120
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question about coaching

wondering why the kids that come up from Hamilton have problems by and large? maybe the coaching style being used in Hamilton is not compatible with the coaching in Montreal. Should the farm team be playing the same style so when the players move up they are comfortable and not have to learn a new system? don't understand why the Dogs are playing so well compared to the habs. Maybe i'm wrong but looks like they are going in different directions.

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01-30-2010, 03:09 PM
  #121
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The thing is they play minimal minutes with the parent team. The prospects coming up are players that need to develop in the NHL too, we are not blessed with having can't miss kids to call up like some other teams...and Montreal seems to be letting Subban play the whole year, as they do not want to rush him.

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01-30-2010, 03:18 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
The thing is they play minimal minutes with the parent team. The prospects coming up are players that need to develop in the NHL too, we are not blessed with having can't miss kids to call up like some other teams...and Montreal seems to be letting Subban play the whole year, as they do not want to rush him.
I understand this what I don't get is why when you hear about Boucher's style and players saying that they have learned more from him in one year than they learned in the past 2 years. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think the two teams are playing the same style of hockey that's why our young guys seem to regress when they come up.

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Old
01-30-2010, 03:25 PM
  #123
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Once again tonight, this team looks ****ling lost out there..

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01-30-2010, 03:30 PM
  #124
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someone please do a

Is the GM the problem? (Gainey discussion here)

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Old
01-30-2010, 03:31 PM
  #125
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**** JM, just fire him already. Bob too while you're at it.

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