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Old
01-29-2010, 11:56 AM
  #26
NYR Viper
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I normally dont like what he writes, it is sometimes dramatized and over-the-top but this one is spot on. I foresee a bad western trip with 3 losses and then hopefully some changes(selling).

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01-29-2010, 12:04 PM
  #27
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Our team does not need to tank to get better, we have a nice group of prospects and solid goaltending that most rebuilding teams dont have (Washington, LA, Blackhawks but thats debatable). We are cap strapped by Redden, Drury, and Rosival who do not perform to the level of pay they recieve. If we could dump Redden off to Toronto at a reasonable price and just let the season pan out without renting any players, in the offseason we can compete for Kovalchuck.

If we don't get Kovalchuck, we should just play with the players we have and play our rookies (McD, Grachev, Sangs, etc) and in time, we could become contenders.

But then again, this is in a perfect world where Sather doesn't get "the itch" to go and spend bank on terrible Free Agents! I'll call it now: Sather signs Marleau to be our "Number 1 center" of the future for 7 million a year

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01-29-2010, 12:21 PM
  #28
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Philly rebuilt in one year after a nice firesale and without addressing goaltending. Granted they have Richards and Carter, but maybe it's a wash with Lundqvist and Gaborik. Our D prospects look like their O prospects.... some smart trades and nice draft picks could deliver us their potential. Don't forget that they had to navigate through some dead cap and roster issues until this season. We are very similar.

Boston chose to get out of the lockout with just a handful of roster players under contract. They suffered early, lost on the Thornton trade but recovered with savy UFA acquistions with Savard, Wheeler, Thomas and Chara. Re-building doesn't have to be a journey anymore. It can be done quickly IF you have cap space. And if you have a competent GM. We have a nice core, not great, but nice. The trick is getting cap space and using it wisely. Gomez for Gaborik was genious, but Sather probably spent his mojo on that one move and we're due for another Redden signing soon.

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01-29-2010, 12:29 PM
  #29
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Dutch...

what can the Rangers get in a firesale? Redden? Noone wants. Rozsival? Noone wants, except if the Rangers take back something else that's not working and costs $5MM. Higgins? Mid-round pick? Drury? NTC or NMC, and who wants to foot his bill? Prospal can probably fetch something, but of course then this team will have a nice hole to fill and I don't know what they're going to fill it with. There aren't a heck of a lot of options. Unfortunately, if the Rangers want to make a big splash on the young side they need to trade someone young. Someone like Dubi + Girard + a pick may be able to get a centerman who's a good amount better than Dubi, or a top pair defenseman (OK, maybe the pieces I'm putting up there aren't the right one, but that's the idea).

So since a firesale nets little, do you shed some youth for better youth? Do you say that Sangs is needed and is there a market for him? So you bank on Stepan and get rid of Anisimov + for a young winger? I dunno right now, but these are things that need to be considered.

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01-29-2010, 12:39 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
what can the Rangers get in a firesale? Redden? Noone wants. Rozsival? Noone wants, except if the Rangers take back something else that's not working and costs $5MM. Higgins? Mid-round pick? Drury? NTC or NMC, and who wants to foot his bill? Prospal can probably fetch something, but of course then this team will have a nice hole to fill and I don't know what they're going to fill it with. There aren't a heck of a lot of options. Unfortunately, if the Rangers want to make a big splash on the young side they need to trade someone young. Someone like Dubi + Girard + a pick may be able to get a centerman who's a good amount better than Dubi, or a top pair defenseman (OK, maybe the pieces I'm putting up there aren't the right one, but that's the idea).

So since a firesale nets little, do you shed some youth for better youth? Do you say that Sangs is needed and is there a market for him? So you bank on Stepan and get rid of Anisimov + for a young winger? I dunno right now, but these are things that need to be considered.
Yeah, I didn't word it right. I am more for a 'spring cleaning'. I don't need a quick fix, just the right path. I understand that we will get nothing for our unwanted parts. They're just better off accepting a few losing seasons while they waive Redden, move Roszival and wait out Drury's contract. Add Brashear's cap hit to the waiting list and hopefull a trade of Kotalik too. I'm content to wait for Grachev, Stepan, Sanguinetti and Krieder among others. Sit on that cap space and wait for a great opportunity like a Savard type signing or a Wideman type trade.

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01-29-2010, 12:54 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Philly rebuilt in one year after a nice firesale and without addressing goaltending. Granted they have Richards and Carter, but maybe it's a wash with Lundqvist and Gaborik. Our D prospects look like their O prospects.... some smart trades and nice draft picks could deliver us their potential. Don't forget that they had to navigate through some dead cap and roster issues until this season. We are very similar.
Philly didn't really rebuild if you are talking about the year that they finished last in the league. That team was a very good team. That team was also a completely unhealthy team. They were devastated by injuries. That is why they immediately came back with force. They were lucky in the sense that they had a year in which most of their key guys went down at once and were able to land a lottery pick. Also their deadweigh contracts were all LTIR contracts for the season.

There isn't really much of a comparison with us and Philly.

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01-29-2010, 01:28 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
what can the Rangers get in a firesale? Redden? Noone wants. Rozsival? Noone wants, except if the Rangers take back something else that's not working and costs $5MM. Higgins? Mid-round pick? Drury? NTC or NMC, and who wants to foot his bill? Prospal can probably fetch something, but of course then this team will have a nice hole to fill and I don't know what they're going to fill it with. There aren't a heck of a lot of options. Unfortunately, if the Rangers want to make a big splash on the young side they need to trade someone young. Someone like Dubi + Girard + a pick may be able to get a centerman who's a good amount better than Dubi, or a top pair defenseman (OK, maybe the pieces I'm putting up there aren't the right one, but that's the idea).

So since a firesale nets little, do you shed some youth for better youth? Do you say that Sangs is needed and is there a market for him? So you bank on Stepan and get rid of Anisimov + for a young winger? I dunno right now, but these are things that need to be considered.
Redden no one wants.
Roszival no one ON HF wants. That's because all the armchair GMs of the world have their heads up their backsides. There are teams that would take Roszival. He has a $5M cap hit, but his average salary for the remaining two years on his deal is only $3.5M. A team near the cap floor will gladly take a solid second pairing vet that they only have to pay $3.5M, in spite of his cap hit. On these grounds alone (because it frees up a great deal of cap) he should be moved.
Higgins is going to be a UFA. He should be moved.
Prospal is going to be a UFA. He should be moved. He could bring in some value.
Lisin is going to be an RFA. Unless he is in the plans for next year, he should be moved.
Girardi is going to be an RFA. Unless we are prepared to give him a raise, we need to get a decent return for him. His stock is relatively strong.
Kotalik has been rumored to be unhappy. IF he can be moved, for anything (again, because of the cap that it clears), he should be.
Drury is the captain and, unfortunately, is not likely to be moved.

So now you have Roszival, Higgins, Prospal, Lisin, Girardi and Kotalik as candidates to be moved, either at the deadline or before the draft.

Recognizing that this team's primary need is cap space (because we have glaring holes in our lineup that can only be filled, for now, with players who are not in our system - you need cap space in order to acquire new players) Sather's top priority should be to assess the youth and see who has a realistic shot at making the Rangers in the next two seasons. Based on his assessment of the youth, he then must do his best to move the players listed above in an effort to acquire players who can fill the holes he does not feel the youth will be able to, or to acquire cap space (expiring contracts or taking back less cap than you send) that can later be used to fill those holes, intelligently, via free agency.

Not all of the players who may potentially be moved if we are "sellers" (I, like others, see it as more of a "spring cleaning") have great value but packaged together in a few deals, it is hard to believe that most, if not all, of those players cannot be gone from the roster heading into the off-season. That allows us to free up considerable space and bring in some new blood to mix with next years youth and should, undoubtedly, leave us better off than we've been this season (it would be hard to get much worse, considering who's in net). If we have to throw a couple of our "lesser" prospects into these packages to sweeten them, so be it. Additionally, if we work up the gumption to send Redden (and Breashear - hell, I'll take the $100k it clears) to Hartford, we ultimately free up quite a bit of cap (enough even to spend on a guy like Kovalchuk and still have space to address another need or two) and have the capacity for a mini off-season rebuild.

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01-29-2010, 01:30 PM
  #33
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Sather recent trade deadline moves haven't really hurt the future and have been pretty reserved. I'm sure he will try to add someone but I doubt he is giving up any of his better young prospects.

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01-29-2010, 01:38 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Kovalchkin71 View Post
Roszival no one ON HF wants. That's because all the armchair GMs of the world have their heads up their backsides. There are teams that would take Roszival. He has a $5M cap hit, but his average salary for the remaining two years on his deal is only $3.5M. A team near the cap floor will gladly take a solid second pairing vet that they only have to pay $3.5M, in spite of his cap hit. On these grounds alone (because it frees up a great deal of cap) he should be moved.
Sounds 'rozy'. Too rozy. How many NHL teams are near the cap floor?

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01-29-2010, 01:40 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Kovalchkin71 View Post
Redden no one wants.
Roszival no one ON HF wants. That's because all the armchair GMs of the world have their heads up their backsides. There are teams that would take Roszival. He has a $5M cap hit, but his average salary for the remaining two years on his deal is only $3.5M. A team near the cap floor will gladly take a solid second pairing vet that they only have to pay $3.5M, in spite of his cap hit. On these grounds alone (because it frees up a great deal of cap) he should be moved.
Higgins is going to be a UFA. He should be moved.
Prospal is going to be a UFA. He should be moved. He could bring in some value.
Lisin is going to be an RFA. Unless he is in the plans for next year, he should be moved.
Girardi is going to be an RFA. Unless we are prepared to give him a raise, we need to get a decent return for him. His stock is relatively strong.
Kotalik has been rumored to be unhappy. IF he can be moved, for anything (again, because of the cap that it clears), he should be.
Drury is the captain and, unfortunately, is not likely to be moved.

So now you have Roszival, Higgins, Prospal, Lisin, Girardi and Kotalik as candidates to be moved, either at the deadline or before the draft.

Recognizing that this team's primary need is cap space (because we have glaring holes in our lineup that can only be filled, for now, with players who are not in our system - you need cap space in order to acquire new players) Sather's top priority should be to assess the youth and see who has a realistic shot at making the Rangers in the next two seasons. Based on his assessment of the youth, he then must do his best to move the players listed above in an effort to acquire players who can fill the holes he does not feel the youth will be able to, or to acquire cap space (expiring contracts or taking back less cap than you send) that can later be used to fill those holes, intelligently, via free agency.

Not all of the players who may potentially be moved if we are "sellers" (I, like others, see it as more of a "spring cleaning") have great value but packaged together in a few deals, it is hard to believe that most, if not all, of those players cannot be gone from the roster heading into the off-season. That allows us to free up considerable space and bring in some new blood to mix with next years youth and should, undoubtedly, leave us better off than we've been this season (it would be hard to get much worse, considering who's in net). If we have to throw a couple of our "lesser" prospects into these packages to sweeten them, so be it. Additionally, if we work up the gumption to send Redden (and Breashear - hell, I'll take the $100k it clears) to Hartford, we ultimately free up quite a bit of cap (enough even to spend on a guy like Kovalchuk and still have space to address another need or two) and have the capacity for a mini off-season rebuild.
irrespective of his cap hit, dont you think other gm's watch this clown play?

i mean, is it really only hf people that see him look like a dufus out there giving pucks away, falling down, shying away from physical contact, getting beat frequently, taking awful, lazy penalties and play a mostly panzyazz game with hardly any offensive contribution whatsoever.

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01-29-2010, 01:41 PM
  #36
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we've been talking about these salary dumps to teams near the floor, but haven't seen it yet in practice. Somewhat makes sense, but we must be missing something as it doesn't seem to be much activity in this regards. Getting a $5MM hit for $3.5MM seems to make sense.

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01-29-2010, 01:43 PM
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offda...

to be fair, if a team is paying $3.5MM for Rozy, it's really not all that bad in today's NHL.

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01-29-2010, 01:45 PM
  #38
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irrespective of his cap hit, dont you think other gm's watch this clown play?

i mean, is it really only hf people that see him look like a dufus out there giving pucks away, falling down, shying away from physical contact, getting beat frequently, taking awful, lazy penalties and play a mostly panzyazz game with hardly any offensive contribution whatsoever.
Yes. This is why Redden sits while Tortorella continues to give Rozy ample ice time. I dislike Roszival and he is prone to lazy plays or ill-timed mistakes, but overall he is still a solid defender. It's only his cap hit that is REALLY hurting us (coupled with the fact that when you're playing this bad and one of your "go-to" guys makes a mistake, it just stands out so much more). Other teams that are not in such a position would be happy to have a guy like Rozy on their second pairing when they only have to pay him $7M on a contract that looks like it costs $10M.

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01-29-2010, 01:48 PM
  #39
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we've been talking about these salary dumps to teams near the floor, but haven't seen it yet in practice. Somewhat makes sense, but we must be missing something as it doesn't seem to be much activity in this regards. Getting a $5MM hit for $3.5MM seems to make sense.
There are very few teams near the cap floor, maybe they don't want somebody else's problems.

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01-29-2010, 01:49 PM
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Rosi at 3.5 mil per in actual money is a pretty good deal for a guy that can give you PP time and eat up minutes for a smaller market team more concerned with actual dollars over cap dollars. But that feels like a trade more likely to happen in the offseason.

Prospal should also be able to bring a decent pick or prospect at the deadline.

Beyond that Higgins and Kotalik might fetch something, but Higgins is having a terrible year and Kotalik is signed to a bad contract, so it doesn't seem likely.

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01-29-2010, 01:49 PM
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Sather recent trade deadline moves haven't really hurt the future and have been pretty reserved. I'm sure he will try to add someone but I doubt he is giving up any of his better young prospects.
A team with no star prospects gave away a second round pick. For what? One horrible round of playoff hockey that we lost? As if that was unexpected.

Second round often has some real gems in it. A lot of good players in this league were second round picks.

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01-29-2010, 01:51 PM
  #42
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A team with no star prospects gave away a second round pick. For what? One horrible round of playoff hockey that we lost? As if that was unexpected.

Second round often has some real gems in it. A lot of good players in this league were second round picks.
or 5th round even....

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01-29-2010, 01:51 PM
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A team with no star prospects gave away a second round pick. For what? One horrible round of playoff hockey that we lost? As if that was unexpected.

Second round often has some real gems in it. A lot of good players in this league were second round picks.
And these days you can get a quality Russian in the 2nd round who could be 1st round talent

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01-29-2010, 02:06 PM
  #44
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There are very few teams near the cap floor, maybe they don't want somebody else's problems.
Nashville, Atlanta (without Kovalchuk, over $20M under), Columbus, Colorado, Anaheim, Islanders, Dallas, St. Louis, Tampa Bay, Minnesota, Los Angeles and Toronto all will have at least $12M cap space available this off-season, as things currently stand. Roszival's pro-rated cap hit by the deadline is significantly lower than $5M (meaning you don't need to have $5M in cap space to acquire him then, more like $2M) and if you acquire him at the draft or over the summer, it doesn't matter at all. That's 12 teams with at least $12M available this off-season. Rozy has a $5M cap hit for the next two years but only $7M in actual dollars paid remaining. A team like PHX who wants to get better without PAYING a lot is a great example of a team who might be interested in acquiring Rozy at $3.5M a year without worrying about the actual cap hit. And they're in the playoff hunt - Roszival + Prospal for an expiring contract? That's the kind of deal Sather should be searching for. Add a second and maybe it gets Mueller?


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01-29-2010, 02:11 PM
  #45
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A team with no star prospects gave away a second round pick. For what? One horrible round of playoff hockey that we lost? As if that was unexpected.

Second round often has some real gems in it. A lot of good players in this league were second round picks.
Yep. Would anyone trade Dubinsky, Anisimov or Stepan for a second line rental? Granted, it could also be Bruce Graham, Randy Copley or Wes Jarvis, but still. Second round pick have value!

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01-29-2010, 02:42 PM
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Yep. Would anyone trade Dubinsky, Anisimov or Stepan for a second line rental? Granted, it could also be Bruce Graham, Randy Copley or Wes Jarvis, but still. Second round pick have value!
True enough, but that's the gamble you take. A second round pick for a GOOD rental is not a terrible trade.

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01-29-2010, 03:01 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
irrespective of his cap hit, dont you think other gm's watch this clown play?

i mean, is it really only hf people that see him look like a dufus out there giving pucks away, falling down, shying away from physical contact, getting beat frequently, taking awful, lazy penalties and play a mostly panzyazz game with hardly any offensive contribution whatsoever.
You know, that is a PERFECT description for Wade Redden.... Not Rozsival.. Take off your hater glasses. He's the second best defensemen on this team, and he contibutes more than: Drury, Redden, Kotalik, and Brashear. 18M invested in crap. Complaining about Rozsival at this point is like, complaining about George Bush. He is what he is, a slightly overpaid player who was yet another Sather signing. I'm all for trading him, OTCB. Or somehow clearing his salary. But your refusal to credit him when he's playing good is just silly.

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01-29-2010, 03:14 PM
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you trade a second round pick for a rental if it's a piece of the puzzle that can get you somewhere. This team doesn't have the pieces in place to be shipping off a second round pick for the possibility of a playoff berth and a first round exit. I always say anything can happen in the playoffs, but I don't get a great feeling from this team to make me believe that anything can happen. The consistent effort, skill and depth just isn't there. Given this team's erratic play this season, I'd look to unload a couple guys for picks and let them fend for themselves, hope for the best and re-tool in the offseason. I'd actually be skeptical regarding trading Prospal. He's the only one that can return someone, but realistically I don't think Sather does that since depth is so thin. Sometimes you lose guys at the end of the season for nothing. I wouldn't lose much sleep over it.

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01-29-2010, 03:18 PM
  #49
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I've found myself agreeing with LB for two seasons now, but in this case, I wholeheartedly disagree. The NYR are not in need of a massive overhaul to do some real damage in the POs. In fact, I'd argue that they are one REAL player away from doing so...especially in a year like this, where the degree of competitive difference in the EC is so thin.

Between Lundqvist and Gaborik, they've made it this far. Another talent of this level would push them to the next level, in my opinion.

How to do this while also attempting to escape the contracts of Redden, Drury, and Rozsival is the task, a seemingly impossible one, actually.
Can you not buy out the contracts through waivers?

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01-29-2010, 03:31 PM
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you trade a second round pick for a rental if it's a piece of the puzzle that can get you somewhere. This team doesn't have the pieces in place to be shipping off a second round pick for the possibility of a playoff berth and a first round exit. I always say anything can happen in the playoffs, but I don't get a great feeling from this team to make me believe that anything can happen. The consistent effort, skill and depth just isn't there. Given this team's erratic play this season, I'd look to unload a couple guys for picks and let them fend for themselves, hope for the best and re-tool in the offseason. I'd actually be skeptical regarding trading Prospal. He's the only one that can return someone, but realistically I don't think Sather does that since depth is so thin. Sometimes you lose guys at the end of the season for nothing. I wouldn't lose much sleep over it.
Oh I agree 100%. This team simply doesn't have what it takes - we could add two or three rentals and that probably wouldn't change. That's why I say this is the season where you SELL at the deadline. Not like we're stripping the team down to nothing and starting a full rebuild, but you get rid of what spare parts you can:

You move Higgins and Prospal because they're UFAs that could bring back something (even if it's a pick) that helps in the FUTURE. I don't worry about depth getting thin after we trade Prospal - we're not making noise, even if we do make the playoffs, so what does it matter? Maybe we call up Grachev to replace him and see what he looks like with 15 or so games and NO pressure or expectations, since we've already become sellers.

I also move Lisin and Girardi at the deadline since they're RFAs, unless we KNOW we are resigning them and that they are in the long term plans. Otherwise get a return for them. I then see if we can package Roszival and Kotalik in any way with the UFAs and RFAs to see if we can clear some cap for next year and increase the return we get back.

I'm not calling for a full rebuild or stripping of the team, but I do think you have to acknowledge that this team is just too inconsistent and lacks the necessary pieces to live by the "anything can happen in the playoffs" motto this season. Once you do acknowledge that, you have to decide to sell. You don't hold on to Prospal just because depth is thin without him - we weren't any worse when he was injured and he could bring something back that helps us in the future. You have to sell the UFAs and RFAs that you don't intend on bringing back and you might as well see if you can find takers for Rozy and Kotalik while you're at it as they're more likely to be moved in a package. Add expendable prospects to sweeten the deals if you have to but don't move anybody who figures into the future of the team unless the return is worth it. Over the off-season you see what youth is ready to jump up to the big club and you try and do a better job spending your new found cap space to compliment the pieces that you know you have.

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