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GM shouldn't sacrifice future for No. 8 seed

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Old
01-29-2010, 03:41 PM
  #51
broadwayblue
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Originally Posted by Kovalchkin71 View Post
True enough, but that's the gamble you take. A second round pick for a GOOD rental is not a terrible trade.
It is when you have a shot at actually winning a few rounds. It isn't when you are lucky to go 7 games in the first round. Big difference imo. We blew a 2nd rounder last year for absolutely no reason other than to keep the lights and cash registers on at the Garden for 3 extra nights. Not the way to build a franchise.

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01-29-2010, 03:48 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
It is when you have a shot at actually winning a few rounds. It isn't when you are lucky to go 7 games in the first round. Big difference imo. We blew a 2nd rounder last year for absolutely no reason other than to keep the lights and cash registers on at the Garden for 3 extra nights. Not the way to build a franchise.
If you look at my last post, I agree. I didn't think we should have traded the pick for Antropov last season and I don't think we should be giving up ANY futures this season, unless it's in a package that clears up cap and/or has a decent return that's not expiring at the end of the season. I was simply commenting on the fact that while 2nd rounders are valuable, in the right circumstances it's a fair price to pay for a rental. More of an aside about the deadline in general than approving of Sather's moves.

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01-29-2010, 03:51 PM
  #53
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I'd say Sather and co. were pretty confident they'd resign Antropov if he played as well as expected, so I wouldn't call it a complete rental.

Obviously he was rather invisible for quite a few games and then priced himself out of this market, but it wasn't a true rental in a sense when the deal was done, just imo.

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Old
01-29-2010, 03:54 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
I'd say Sather and co. were pretty confident they'd resign Antropov if he played as well as expected, so I wouldn't call it a complete rental.

Obviously he was rather invisible for quite a few games and then priced himself out of this market, but it wasn't a true rental in a sense when the deal was done, just imo.
I cant say he really priced himself out.

He got 4/16 and then we turn around and give Kotalik 3/9. A million more a season, and 1 more year for a clearly better player? We missed the boat with that one. Same goes for Zherdev. Either one of those guys at a million more would have been a big help.

Instead we got Kotalik and Brashear at a 4.4 million per season cap hit. Sheesh.

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01-29-2010, 03:56 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
It is when you have a shot at actually winning a few rounds. It isn't when you are lucky to go 7 games in the first round. Big difference imo. We blew a 2nd rounder last year for absolutely no reason other than to keep the lights and cash registers on at the Garden for 3 extra nights. Not the way to build a franchise.
Yes.

I was upset when they traded Prucha and Dawes last year too. Not so much because we were losing the player, and not so much of what we were getting back either. It was at the fact that Sather HAD to do that with the jam he got into with all the restricted free agents and cap trouble. Its because he HAD to turn them into players who could help a playoff run that we all knew wasnt really going to amount to much going in. It was because he could have gotten back a pick or 2 or 3 for those guys if the record had been a little different going into the trade deadline.

Sather will always force the inevitable, which is to save face and go for it. Its to reach for that extra profit in the form of bloated playoff ticket prices, no matter how futile or disjointed the attempt at a championship may seem. Its about numbers. It about a business, short term when you are staring a potential playoff berth down. It won't be any different this year either, unless he is forced to do so. The only way that happens is if its truly evident they cant make it a few weeks after the olympic break...

Right now the Rangers are 2 points out of 13th, but also 2 out of 6th. This next stretch is immensely important for the Rangers because they've been at this same point in previous seasons. Which way the door swings these next 10 games might determine where they lie at the crossroads. What might be more important is the rest of the Atlantic dwellers and how they perform. The Atlantic sucks. If the Rangers were in the West it would already be clear that they should be sellers.

Inferno laid out the remaining games in his last blog post, and its pretty evident theyll have to play very good hockey to get a spot regardless of how the rest of the Conference plays. But its not about then, its more about now and the next several games that are important to the future of this team, because it will ultimately be the deciding factor in what Bozo is going to do. Buy or Sell...


Last edited by HockeyBasedNYC: 01-29-2010 at 04:03 PM.
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Old
01-29-2010, 04:13 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
Sanguinetti?
You can make an argument that Sanguinetti,Heikkinen and even Sauer who has received zero opportunity this season from the start of the training camp are more viable options than Redden who is a 15 minute defenseman making $8 million in salary and a $6.5 million cap hit.

The other guys have a chance to improve while we already know about Redden.

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01-29-2010, 04:14 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I cant say he really priced himself out.

He got 4/16 and then we turn around and give Kotalik 3/9. A million more a season, and 1 more year for a clearly better player? We missed the boat with that one. Same goes for Zherdev. Either one of those guys at a million more would have been a big help.

Instead we got Kotalik and Brashear at a 4.4 million per season cap hit. Sheesh.
4/16 for essentially a 30 year old with a track record of knee injuries and maybe 2 quality years is awful.

Passing on him was by far the correct move if he felt he was worth that or more on the open market, it just happened to be that Sather spent that remaining cash in a nearly as bad case.

There's no way Antro is worth that much to any team that wasn't trying to appease a Russian superstar, just like Kotalik isn't worth that much to any team that isn't clueless on how to build a PP.

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01-29-2010, 04:16 PM
  #58
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He really hasn't done that. The biggest problem has been the cap-choking contracts. I fear July 1 more than the trade deadline.
That Kovakchuk situation is out there and the idiotic Vinny rumors have gotten started again on the news about the NHL trying to broker a sale of the Tampa Bay team to a hedge fund manager from Boston.

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01-29-2010, 04:26 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I cant say he really priced himself out.

He got 4/16 and then we turn around and give Kotalik 3/9. A million more a season, and 1 more year for a clearly better player? We missed the boat with that one. Same goes for Zherdev. Either one of those guys at a million more would have been a big help.

Instead we got Kotalik and Brashear at a 4.4 million per season cap hit. Sheesh.
Remember this little gem from Sather about Antropov?

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"Based on the first volley from [agent] Mark Gandler, there is a slim chance [of Antropov returning]," the general manager said following the fifth round of the Entry Draft. "There's a snowball's chance in hell that's going to happen. It's ridiculous. I hate to criticize an agent, but let's have a little bit of reality here."
And then the arrogant ******* goes ahead and signs the clearly lesser player in Kotalik for 3 years at $9 million with a limited NTC!!! Yes, Glen, please, let's have a little bit of reality here.

It's just not the awful contracts that's the problem, it's that his priorities and decision-making are way off. He belittles Antropov's agent for wanting too much money but then overpays Kotalik. It's absolutely mind-boggling.

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Old
01-29-2010, 04:28 PM
  #60
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Speaking of futures, why did that ahole Sather give up a 3rd for Boyle? I'm expecting him to trade our 2nd at the deadline and look. We have a 1st rounder then don't get to pick in the next 2 rounds.

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01-29-2010, 04:37 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Kovalchkin71 View Post
Nashville, Atlanta (without Kovalchuk, over $20M under), Columbus, Colorado, Anaheim, Islanders, Dallas, St. Louis, Tampa Bay, Minnesota, Los Angeles and Toronto all will have at least $12M cap space available this off-season, as things currently stand. Roszival's pro-rated cap hit by the deadline is significantly lower than $5M (meaning you don't need to have $5M in cap space to acquire him then, more like $2M) and if you acquire him at the draft or over the summer, it doesn't matter at all. That's 12 teams with at least $12M available this off-season. Rozy has a $5M cap hit for the next two years but only $7M in actual dollars paid remaining. A team like PHX who wants to get better without PAYING a lot is a great example of a team who might be interested in acquiring Rozy at $3.5M a year without worrying about the actual cap hit. And they're in the playoff hunt - Roszival + Prospal for an expiring contract? That's the kind of deal Sather should be searching for. Add a second and maybe it gets Mueller?
Ok the post I questioned stated there are teams near the cap floor who may be interested in Rozsival and not worry about the cap hit, because they're near the cap floor anyway. Most of the teams you just mentioned will be nowhere near the cap floor next year.

The only teams that will possibly be near the cap floor are the teams with ownership issues (Nashville, Phoenix and Long Island). Good luck pawning Roszival off on one of them. And if their ownership situations settle, these teams may not be near the cap floor either.

The rest of those teams will most likely be much closer to the cap ceiling than cap floor, they cleared cap space for a reason...TO SIGN GOOD PLAYERS. They are definitely not looking at a Roszival.

I don't think Rozsival has been as brutal as Redden, but he is no 'bargain' at either a $10 million cap hit, or $7 million actual payroll for the next two years.

And I don't understand your point about Roszival's pro-rated cap hit either. The only time you don't need to have $5 million in cap space for a year is if you trade Roszival at the deadline in the last year of his contract, when he'll be a UFA two months later. At that point he will be worth virtually nothing on the trade market.

What does this
Quote:
if you acquire him at the draft, or over the summer, it doesn't matter at all
mean? What doesn't matter at all? The cap hit will always be there until his contract runs out.


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01-29-2010, 04:41 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by alphaqup View Post
Speaking of futures, why did that ahole Sather give up a 3rd for Boyle? I'm expecting him to trade our 2nd at the deadline and look. We have a 1st rounder then don't get to pick in the next 2 rounds.
I'm more upset about this trade than the Antro one because Antro definitely contributed while he was here, and would have been better as a signing than Kotalik.

Boyle makes no sense bc he's a downgrade from Betts.

But I guess Sather figured why keep Betts when he has Chris Drury, basically the same player.

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01-29-2010, 05:25 PM
  #63
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i feel that brooks is spot on with this. but you never know what sather's gonna do next

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01-29-2010, 05:44 PM
  #64
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<-- Tank four Hall
while I don't feel like we need to tank (avatar is more for fun), every argument I hear against tanking assumes

1) our prospects will pan out at or beyond our expectations
2) some other team will be duped into taking Rosival, Redden, and Drury.

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01-29-2010, 05:46 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by alphaqup View Post
Speaking of futures, why did that ahole Sather give up a 3rd for Boyle? I'm expecting him to trade our 2nd at the deadline and look. We have a 1st rounder then don't get to pick in the next 2 rounds.
Rangers 3rd rounders since 2000:
Dom Moore
Garth Murray
Marcus Jonasen
Ken Roche
Zdenek Bahensky
Billy Ryan
Brodie Dupont
Dalyn Flatt
Ryan Hillier
Evgeny Grachev
Thomas Kundratek
Ryan Bourque

With that kind of track record, giving up a 3rd for a cheap 4th liner who kills penalties well really doesn't seem like a big deal

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01-29-2010, 06:50 PM
  #66
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what can the Rangers get in a firesale? Redden? Noone wants. Rozsival? Noone wants, except if the Rangers take back something else that's not working and costs $5MM. Higgins? Mid-round pick? Drury? NTC or NMC, and who wants to foot his bill? Prospal can probably fetch something, but of course then this team will have a nice hole to fill and I don't know what they're going to fill it with. There aren't a heck of a lot of options. Unfortunately, if the Rangers want to make a big splash on the young side they need to trade someone young. Someone like Dubi + Girard + a pick may be able to get a centerman who's a good amount better than Dubi, or a top pair defenseman (OK, maybe the pieces I'm putting up there aren't the right one, but that's the idea).

So since a firesale nets little, do you shed some youth for better youth? Do you say that Sangs is needed and is there a market for him? So you bank on Stepan and get rid of Anisimov + for a young winger? I dunno right now, but these are things that need to be considered.
I say move what you can for what you can that makes the team better. Trade from strengths to fill weaknesses. Don't do wasteful deals like was done last year for Antropov and don't do deals where you pay someone to take a contract.

There is only so much that can be done by the deadline. Come, the end of the season, teams have holes that need to be filled, more deals can be done. I still believe Rozi is tradeable because of the way his contract is structured. He's come to the point in his deal which is similar to where McCabe's was when he was dealt and I believe Rozi will be dealt this offseason.

My pie in the sky is ...if Gomez is dealt las season for prospects, Rozi is dealt this offseason for a prospect or pick, Drury could be dealt the following season, and Redden the year after. There are many teams who have tighter financial constraints to work within, then the salary cap. Sometimes trading a salary for a salary makes more sense and if you're not spending to the cap, the cap hit, doesn't matter too much.

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Old
01-29-2010, 07:07 PM
  #67
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I'm not sure what Brooks is getting at here. There is no way we would trade ONLY youth for Kovy, Phaneuf, Vinny L, etc. They make 6.4, 6.5, and 7.7 per year respectively. In order to get one of those guys, Rozi or Redden would have to go the other way, and honestly I wouldn't mind sacrificing a few young guys to get rid of one of those terrible contracts.

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01-29-2010, 07:51 PM
  #68
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I think the biggest problem with Sather is that he cannot deal with the idea of the Rangers having a learning (ie: bad) season. There's nothing wrong with signing a big money free agent to fill a glaring hole on the roster. Unfortunately, Sather fills the hole before finding out if he has something even better in the prospect cupboard.

First he signs Gomez and Drury. It didn't seem like a horrible idea at the time. Why? Because all we heard/saw the season before was that we just didn't have quality centers. Immonen was getting games. Dom Moore. Betts. Cullen. Aside from Nylander (who was rapidly pricing himself beyond his ability), the Rangers just didn't have any centers to play the top two lines. Sather addressed that and let Nylander walk, signing two (clearly at the time) top 6 centers. Enter Brandon Dubinsky. Not only does he show top 6 ability, but he also shows the best chemistry with Jagr. If Sather had been a little more patient or cautious, we might not have the Drury contract working against us.

Same story the next year with Redden. Staal and Girardi proved to be top 4 d-men. Add Roszival to that equation, and Redden suddenly isn't necessary.

I think the same thing happened with Kotalik. All we cried about last season was getting a PP quarterback. That's been Kotalik's bread and butter for years now. Unfortunately for Kotes (and Sather), Del Zotto proved to have better bread on better butter. Now we have a PP quarterback who doesn't get to be a focal point on the PP with shattered confidence after being beaten out by a 19 year old (not complaining about DZ, just pointing out how the situation could seem to Kotalik).

Sather needs to move as many expensive pieces as he can. Particularly, he needs to open up one or two spots on the defense (for Sanguinetti, Heikkinen and/or Sauer), and one or two spots on the wing (for Byers, more Lisin minutes and maybe give PAP or Locke an extended look).

Then let it roll for the rest of this season and next. By 2012, we'll know what we have in the group of young D-men. We'll know what we have in Grachev, Stepan, etc. At THAT point, the team can assess what weaknesses they have, address those weaknesses with an intelligent signing or two (since Drury will be coming off the books) and make a few seasons worth of Cup runs.

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01-29-2010, 09:10 PM
  #69
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Given what Atlanta is rumored to want for Ilya, it would not be sacrificing the future, so I must say I disagree with Brooks regarding that.

Additionally, given our system and our roster's shortcomings with legitimate scoring talent, I would say that acquiring Ilya would not be mortgaging the future either. If he's just a rental, yes, but if the price is Dubinsky, Rozsival and Kotalik plus a pick, even a 1st rounder, it's unquestionably worth it. Silly bandaids in the Lindros mold are a no-go, but Ilya is, at least to me, completely irrespective of the "mortgaging the future" discussion.

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01-29-2010, 09:52 PM
  #70
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If you can guarantee me that Kovalchuck would sign here if we traded for him at the deadline, then I would not be opposed at all to the trade. Except replace Dubinsky with another player (McD) because we need centers for the future.

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01-29-2010, 10:30 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
I think the biggest problem with Sather is that he cannot deal with the idea of the Rangers having a learning (ie: bad) season. There's nothing wrong with signing a big money free agent to fill a glaring hole on the roster. Unfortunately, Sather fills the hole before finding out if he has something even better in the prospect cupboard.
There's something very wrong with paying big money to free agents who aren't worthy of it, especially when you don't just do it once, but 4-5 times over the course of 2-3 years.

Quote:
First he signs Gomez and Drury. It didn't seem like a horrible idea at the time. Why? Because all we heard/saw the season before was that we just didn't have quality centers. Immonen was getting games. Dom Moore. Betts. Cullen. Aside from Nylander (who was rapidly pricing himself beyond his ability), the Rangers just didn't have any centers to play the top two lines. Sather addressed that and let Nylander walk, signing two (clearly at the time) top 6 centers. Enter Brandon Dubinsky. Not only does he show top 6 ability, but he also shows the best chemistry with Jagr. If Sather had been a little more patient or cautious, we might not have the Drury contract working against us.
Seemed like a horrible idea to me Why? Because clearly, neither Drury or Gomez have ever been franchise players. Any rudimentary analysis of either of their careers provides the evidence to see that. Franchise players make other players around them better. It's the other way around with both Drury and Gomez. It isn't about Brandon Dubinsky. It's about Drury and Gomez being role players that were paid like superstars.

Quote:
Same story the next year with Redden. Staal and Girardi proved to be top 4 d-men. Add Roszival to that equation, and Redden suddenly isn't necessary.
Redden isn't necessary because he's a terrible player, and his play the two seasons prior to us signing him was already showing that to be the case. Someone was necessary, for sure. Just not Redden. There were other options available, Sather just chose to take the worst possible choice available.

Quote:
I think the same thing happened with Kotalik. All we cried about last season was getting a PP quarterback. That's been Kotalik's bread and butter for years now. Unfortunately for Kotes (and Sather), Del Zotto proved to have better bread on better butter. Now we have a PP quarterback who doesn't get to be a focal point on the PP with shattered confidence after being beaten out by a 19 year old (not complaining about DZ, just pointing out how the situation could seem to Kotalik).
Kotalik is not and never has been a PP Quarterback, nor was he ever the focal point of any PP before. A PP quarterback runs the power play. He distributes the puck and sets up the play. In Buffalo, that man was Brian Campbell. It isn't hard to tell from his play that Kotalik doesn't have the ability to run anything. There is only one reason Kotalik is on the ice for a PP, and that's to be set up to take one-timers.

Del Zotto did not take Kotalik's role, because Kotalik was not brought here to run the PP. He was brought here for his shot. The only one to blame for his shattered confidence is Kotalik, because he's such a downright awful player (by NHL standards) that he can't even put himself in position to do the one thing he's paid millions of dollars to do. Instead, he fumbles with the puck and makes bad decision after bad decision. Kotalik should never have been signed for this precise reason. It isn't because someone else took his role, it's just that he's not very good. You'll notice the Buffalo Sabres, a team that's doing a lot better than we are, didn't show much interest in holding on to him. Wonder why?

Quote:
Sather needs to move as many expensive pieces as he can. Particularly, he needs to open up one or two spots on the defense (for Sanguinetti, Heikkinen and/or Sauer), and one or two spots on the wing (for Byers, more Lisin minutes and maybe give PAP or Locke an extended look).

Then let it roll for the rest of this season and next. By 2012, we'll know what we have in the group of young D-men. We'll know what we have in Grachev, Stepan, etc. At THAT point, the team can assess what weaknesses they have, address those weaknesses with an intelligent signing or two (since Drury will be coming off the books) and make a few seasons worth of Cup runs.
Here, we're more or less in agreement.

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Old
01-29-2010, 11:25 PM
  #72
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It is when you have a shot at actually winning a few rounds. It isn't when you are lucky to go 7 games in the first round. Big difference imo. We blew a 2nd rounder last year for absolutely no reason other than to keep the lights and cash registers on at the Garden for 3 extra nights. Not the way to build a franchise.
What if part of that money went into scouting?

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Old
01-29-2010, 11:46 PM
  #73
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If Slats doesn't trade Rosie, it will be a big mistake. Not only will he get something for him, but he'll create a spot for Heineken, who will leave otherwise.

Also, trade Prospal and Higgins since we'll likely lose them in the summer anyway. Not only will they want far more money, but we will need to clear their spots anyway to allow Grachev and either Byers or Weise to play.

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Old
01-29-2010, 11:55 PM
  #74
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My thing with the Antropov deal is it was basically a rehearsal for Antropov. There was definitely interest in re-signing him from the start because of the size he has and how we lack it, or at least lacked it at the time. So while he ended up being a rental, we took a chance on the possibility he may re-sign, and possibly a little cheaper if he liked it here. Didn't happen that way, but we've wasted 2nd round picks on plenty of guys that don't sign because of whatever reason in the draft...Antoine Lafleur the latest case.

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01-30-2010, 02:38 AM
  #75
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The guys on NHL network were discussing with Bob McKenzine today that the Thrashers would want Staal, Dubinsky, Grachev, Sanguinetti, and a 1st for Kovalchuk -- at least that type of deal. Obviously it would end up being less but that is the asking price right now.

McKenize's final thought: Marc Staal, Dubinsky, & Grachev OR 1st for Kovalchuk

No thanks Atlanta, keep him.

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