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Dion Phaneuf to the Maple Leafs

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Old
01-31-2010, 04:44 PM
  #51
Bryanbryoil
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Trottier, for a guy that complains about forwards defense how can you be so in love with a defenseman that plays crappy defense? Yeah he has talent, but his hockey IQ sucks, and his attitude is worse from what I've heard from people that have grown up with him.

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01-31-2010, 04:47 PM
  #52
KH1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
I disagree.

White has been better this season. But to draw ANY conclusion based on that is GMing by PowerPoll.

As in: who's "hotter" the last game, week or month(s). As in: no perspective, whatsoever.

We'll never be able to prove it, but I'd bet my life that you could not find a single NHL GM who would choose White over Phaneuf. And that includes D. Sutter, today. Likewise, yuo can have Ian White out on the ice today for your side. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a coach who wouldn't rather have Phaneuf on the ice for them today, current "snapshot" assessments, notwithstanding. It's really not even that close.

It's akin to saying that Matt Moulson is scoring more goals than John Tavares this year. Big deal.
Like I said, Phaneuf has a far greater ceiling (both on a long term and game to game basis.) There's an obvious reason why the Leafs had to add significant parts aside from White to their side of the deal to bring Phaneuf in (despite what HF-think may tell you, Stajan is a significant asset.)

But the fact remains that White has been playing better hockey than big #3 for most of this season. And that is significant for a team like Calgary that's trying to right the ship now and going into the future. At the very least, they aren't downgrading that far in the present and that's critical. Otherwise Sutter would've accepted a draft pick/prospect instead of an RFA. It's true that the cap flexibility that this deal provides is the main attraction for the Flames, but it would be foolish to dismiss White's solid play this year.

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01-31-2010, 04:59 PM
  #53
Trottier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KH1 View Post
But the fact remains that White has been playing better hockey than big #3 for most of this season. And that is significant for a team like Calgary that's trying to right the ship now and going into the future. At the very least, they aren't downgrading that far in the present and that's critical.
I do not disagree with that logic (boldfaced), at all.

Perhaps you were the wrong poster to quote. But it was implied (or at least inferred) from several posts that simply because White is performing better this year, the two are close.

They're not.

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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Trottier, for a guy that complains about forwards defense how can you be so in love with a defenseman that plays crappy defense? Yeah he has talent, but his hockey IQ sucks, and his attitude is worse from what I've heard from people that have grown up with him.
First, with regard to forwards playing defense: when your forwards backcheck, your dman's job is exponentially easier...And you transition to offense much more efficiently. Hockey 101.

Next, I disagree with your assessment of Dion Phaneuf...or at least I do not equate his current play with future results/projection. He remains young; I expect him, to continue to mature and improve. He'll be in the league another 10-15 years. At worst, he is Bryan Mccabe. At best, he is a future Norris candidate (again).

White is a journeyman having a nice season on a lousy team.

And Phaneuf's skillset is superb. How quickly we forget that this guy was a finalist candidate for best dman in the league just a couple of seasons back.


Last edited by Trottier: 01-31-2010 at 05:07 PM.
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Old
01-31-2010, 06:07 PM
  #54
Dice on Ice
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I think that cost-effectiveness is getting lost in the analysis. Toronto is taking a mammoth gamble on Phaneuf. If he's seriously a locker room problem, and he's a guy who for whatever reason can't seem to work out the kinks in his game, then Burke has to pay him $26 million over the next four years. In the era of the salary cap, that's enormous. Especially now that he has Komisarek, Kessel, Kaberle, Finger, Grabovski, and Beauchemin under contract for the long term. Plus he has to pay Bozak, Schenn, and Gustavsson either this off-season or next off-season.

With Phaneuf in that equation, there will only be so many big-money acquisitions he can continue to make. If Dion doesn't pan out as a top-pairing guy, they'll be handing a huge paycheck to someone who isn't justifying the money. Not to say Phaneuf will become Wade Redden, but what if he's Brian Campbell? That'd still be pretty bad news if they don't have their own Seabrooks and Keiths and Hjalmarssons. And that's the thing: this would all be OK if the team as presently constituted was pretty good, but right now, it sucks.

Personally, I don't like it. But I'm not an NHL GM and he is, and he has a Stanley Cup to his name and I don't. So I guess we'll see how the whole thing pans out in time.

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01-31-2010, 06:57 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice on Ice View Post
I think that cost-effectiveness is getting lost in the analysis. Toronto is taking a mammoth gamble on Phaneuf. If he's seriously a locker room problem, and he's a guy who for whatever reason can't seem to work out the kinks in his game, then Burke has to pay him $26 million over the next four years. In the era of the salary cap, that's enormous. Especially now that he has Komisarek, Kessel, Kaberle, Finger, Grabovski, and Beauchemin under contract for the long term. Plus he has to pay Bozak, Schenn, and Gustavsson either this off-season or next off-season.

With Phaneuf in that equation, there will only be so many big-money acquisitions he can continue to make. If Dion doesn't pan out as a top-pairing guy, they'll be handing a huge paycheck to someone who isn't justifying the money. Not to say Phaneuf will become Wade Redden, but what if he's Brian Campbell? That'd still be pretty bad news if they don't have their own Seabrooks and Keiths and Hjalmarssons. And that's the thing: this would all be OK if the team as presently constituted was pretty good, but right now, it sucks.

Personally, I don't like it. But I'm not an NHL GM and he is, and he has a Stanley Cup to his name and I don't. So I guess we'll see how the whole thing pans out in time.
I've always maintained that Burke is much better at taking an established roster and turning them into a legitimate contender than actually making a bad team good again. He does this by trading future for present. Then he leaves whichever team he's with when they are on the downswing. He did this with Anaheim, and with Vancouver.

You do not give up 2 1st round picks with one certainly being a top 5 pick for a player who isn't a franchise player type. Kessel, by all acounts, is a great scorer, and will one day perhaps be consistent enough to be a bona fide star in this league. However, he is not in the upper tier of forwards in the league, and will likely never be one.

Now Burke has dealt more of his dwinding assets for another question mark in Phaneuf to help turn the franchise around. With nothing of value left aside from Kadri, and Schenn, the team has run out of assets to acquire a top line center it really needs, and the secondary scoring they will now need. Things will get much worse for the Leafs, and without their lottery pick this year or next, it may take years for this team to be consistent contenders again.

At least they'll be interesting though.

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Old
02-01-2010, 07:35 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPIsles21 View Post
Now Burke has dealt more of his dwinding assets for another question mark in Phaneuf to help turn the franchise around. With nothing of value left aside from Kadri, and Schenn, the team has run out of assets to acquire a top line center it really needs, and the secondary scoring they will now need. Things will get much worse for the Leafs, and without their lottery pick this year or next, it may take years for this team to be consistent contenders again.

At least they'll be interesting though.
The second I saw this deal I thought that this is better, for the Leafs, than a Milbury deal, but it puts the team in a very Milbury state: they've banked everything on a couple of extremely talented but flawed/incomplete hockey players in Kessel and Phaneuf. They won't have all that much salary flexibility, and they've got no additional assets, as you mention.

I can see this team, with free agent acquisitions, making the playoffs and losing in the first round next year. But they're an injury or problem away from completely falling off the cliff.

I'm so glad that the players we're banking on are inconsistent because they average 20 years old. Bailey, Okposo, Tavares seem better bets to me, because they seem to have more between the ears than Kessel or Phaneuf, by far. They also seem to have the capacity to make the team their team, which I doubt either new Leaf will.

Although this move isn't a big risk if we look at it by itself, their roster is incredibly risky.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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Old
02-01-2010, 08:12 AM
  #57
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The bottom line, I believe, is that Toronna got better. Maybe MUCH better.

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02-01-2010, 08:32 AM
  #58
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i dont see how toronto got better. they had to sacrafice a fair amount of their offensive output for this. i bet they traded away 25%-30% of the teams goals to get dion and giguere.

i think burke is gonna start reminding us more and more of milbury. i think were gonna see a series of questionable/poor trades for players w/ names in an attempt to make up for the last bad trade.

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Old
02-01-2010, 08:33 AM
  #59
redbull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
First, with regard to forwards playing defense: when your forwards backcheck, your dman's job is exponentially easier...And you transition to offense much more efficiently. Hockey 101.
NJD - perfect example of this and a very underrated piece of winning teams. When players like Datsyuk,Zetts, Parise, Zajac do this with regularity, it hurts their total offensive output but more often than not, their teams go deep in the playoffs.

Ovechkin doesn't do this - but he's got elite skills, maybe he gets a pass (although I suspect this will need to change before Washington makes the finals.)

Quote:
White is a journeyman having a nice season on a lousy team.
That point should not be lost. Leafs are awful. White's been their best defenseman but so what. He's consistent and reliable but can never be a top defenseman. He's solid for what his skills allow him to be, but that's nowhere NEAR Phaneuf, not even at his worst.

And Phaneuf's skillset is superb. How quickly we forget that this guy was a finalist candidate for best dman in the league just a couple of seasons back.[/QUOTE]

short memories. Locker-room issues aside (cuz who really knows unless you're in the room), what Phaneuf brings is rare and valuable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice on Ice View Post
I think that cost-effectiveness is getting lost in the analysis. Toronto is taking a mammoth gamble on Phaneuf. If he's seriously a locker room problem, and he's a guy who for whatever reason can't seem to work out the kinks in his game, then Burke has to pay him $26 million over the next four years. In the era of the salary cap, that's enormous.
Even Sather has shown (and continues to show) how easy it can be to rid yourself of these "bad contracts" - always another sucker out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPIsles21 View Post

Now Burke has dealt more of his dwinding assets for another question mark in Phaneuf to help turn the franchise around. With nothing of value left aside from Kadri, and Schenn, the team has run out of assets to acquire a top line center it really needs, and the secondary scoring they will now need. Things will get much worse for the Leafs, and without their lottery pick this year or next, it may take years for this team to be consistent contenders again.
.
Burke has the ability to acquire talent and he's got appeal to UFAs (for whatever reason). Whether it's signing college free agents or euro goalies, whatever. Add to that, he knows what he wants and isn't afraid to make bold statements - with the media and with his roster moves.

IMO, Burke inherited a nightmare situation with horrible contracts paralleled with major sub-par talent. Jason Blake has been horrible and most of the players moved were not players Burke wanted.

Similar to the Isles (in some ways) the Leafs have top6 players that aren't good enough offensively/physical and bottom six players that aren't good enough defensively/physical.

The Isles, at least, have cap room (budget???) and young elite-esque talent and picks.

Burke is taking a different (Ranger-esque) path to building his team.

Time will tell.

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Old
02-01-2010, 11:10 AM
  #60
Law
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Has Fearless Freddy lost his title?! Is this not trademark infringement?!

Quote:
"[Phaneuf] is a warrior. He's got a cannon for a shot," explained Burke. "He plays the game hard and I want players who play the game hard because they're hard to play against."


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Old
02-03-2010, 11:59 AM
  #61
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"Toronto gave away all their offense!"

Newsflash: they were going to do that anyway. They're sellers. Hagman, Mayers, and Stajan were almost guaranteed to go before the deadline anyway.

I love White and he's the hardest thing to swallow about this trade for Toronto, IMO. But as much as Toronto fans admire and appreciate White for his heart, at the end of the day his ceiling isn't anywhere close to Phaneuf's. Burke believes Phaneuf is already an impact player and in my estimation, none of the players traded for him have the potential to be an impact player. There are some good pieces there but as far as I'm concerned... if you trade an impact player, you better be getting at least one player with impact player potential or it's one hell of a risk.

Before Sunday, people always liked to say that the only reason guys like Stajan were scoring was because "someone has to score on a bad team", and now all of a sudden the loss of him is disastrous. Either everyone was wrong about Stajan before... or by their logic, someone else will step up - a Bozak, a Hanson, a Stalberg.

One of the most overlooked aspects of this deal, IMO, is the addition of a big shot to our dismal PP. The only real threat on our PP has been Kessel - the opposing teams' PKers cheat to him, take away his time and space and our PP is effectively neutralized. Teams will be forced now to respect Dion's shot from the point and theoretically this would give Kessel more time and space and provide two threats on our PP.

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