HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

CBA: questions on LTIR Exception execution

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-05-2008, 06:44 PM
  #1
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 11,273
vCash: 500
CBA: questions on LTIR Exception execution

CBA Section 50.10(d):

Quote:
(d) Bona-Fide Long-TermInjury/Illness Exception to the Upper Limit. In the event that a Player on a Club becomes unfit to play (i.e., is injured, ill or disabled and unable to perform his duties as a hockey Player) such that the Club's physician believes, in his or her opinion, that the Player, owing to either an injury or an illness, will be unfit to play for at least (i) twenty-four (24) calendar days and (ii) ten (10) NHL Regular Season games, and such Club desires to replace such Player, the Club may add an additional Player or Players to its Active Roster, and the replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of such additional Player(s) may increase the Club's Averaged Club Salary to an amount up to and exceeding the Upper Limit, solely as, and to the extent and for the duration, set forth below. If, however, the League wishes to challenge the determination of a Club physician that a Player is unfit to play for purposes of the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception, the League and the NHLPA shall promptly confer and jointly select a neutral physician, who shall review the Club physician's determination regarding the Player's fitness to play.

(i) A Club seeking to exercise the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception must simultaneously so notify Central Registry and the NHLPA, in writing, before any Player replacing an unfit-to-play Player shall be permitted to play with the Club;

(ii) The Player Salary and Bonuses of the Player that has been deemed unfit-to-play shall continue to be counted toward the Club's Averaged Club Salary as well as count against the Players' Share during the League Year in which the Player is deemed unfit-toplay (including during the period such unfit-to-play Player is on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to another league);

(iii) The total replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for a Player or Players that have replaced an unfit-to-play Player may not in the aggregate exceed the amount of the Player Salary and Bonuses of the unfit-to-play Player who the Club is replacing;

(iv) The replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for any Player(s) that replace(s) an unfit-to-play Player may be added to the Club's Averaged Club Salary until such time as the Club's Averaged Club Salary reaches the Upper Limit. A Club may then exceed the Upper Limit due to the addition of replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of Players who have replaced an unfit-to-play Player, provided, however, that when the unfit-to-play Player is once again fit to play (including any period such Player is on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to another league), the Club shall be required to once again reduce its Averaged Club Salary to a level at or below the Upper Limit prior to the Player being able to rejoin the Club. To the extent any Player who is unfit-to-play becomes fit to play during the period of the Roster Freeze set forth in Article 13, the provisions of this Section 50.10(d)(iv) requiring a Club to come back into compliance with the Payroll Range shall supersede the provisions of Article 13 restricting transactions during the Roster Freeze;
Various questions not explicitly addressed:

a) Do LTIR Exceptions have to be invoked in one atomic action? For example, could a team with a $2m injured player on LTIR add a $1m replacement player via LTIR Exception and then at a later date add a second $1m player?

b) Can a team change players designated as LTIR Exception replacements? For example, Player A was originally added to the roster as an LTIR Exception, but later the team wants to swap Player B into the LTIR Exception and remove Player A while keeping both players on the roster.

c) Can LTIR Exceptions be "undone"? For example, if the team payroll came back into cap compliance with needing the LTIR Exception, or if the player(s) added via LTIR Exception are removed from the roster.

d) If LTIR Exceptions can be "undone", can a new LTIR Exception be later invoked for the same injured player on LTIR?

mouser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2008, 07:10 PM
  #2
Irish Blues
____________________
 
Irish Blues's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Country: St Helena
Posts: 21,804
vCash: 91
1. The designation for LTIR can be made retroactively. Additionally, there is no limit to the number of players that can be designated for LTIR in a season or at any one time.

2. Contrary to popular belief, teams do not "tag" or otherwise designate players as "the replacement players for the guy who's on LTIR" - the league simply assumes that, after exhausting available cap space prior to the use of space available due to an LTI designation, any players that would otherwise result in the team being out of compliance are "the replacement players" and their Averaged Amount is exempted from calculations [up to the limit available].

3. I don't completely understand what you mean by "undone" ... so I'll just say that the player cannot be removed from LTIR until the team has sufficient cap space available.

4. A player may be designated for LTIR more than once in a season.

__________________
No promises this time.
Irish Blues is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-05-2008, 10:53 PM
  #3
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 11,273
vCash: 500
Sorry for the confusion. All my questions/examples were purely related to the act of a team "exercising" a LTIR Exemption to replace an injured player. Nothing to do with actually putting an injured player onto LTIR. (just taking answer #2 since the rest seem to deal with placing a player onto LTIR)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
2. Contrary to popular belief, teams do not "tag" or otherwise designate players as "the replacement players for the guy who's on LTIR" - the league simply assumes that, after exhausting available cap space prior to the use of space available due to an LTI designation, any players that would otherwise result in the team being out of compliance are "the replacement players" and their Averaged Amount is exempted from calculations [up to the limit available].
The illustrations in the CBA don't seem to fully match with this answer. Taking the first example illustration from the CBA:

Quote:
Illustration #1: The Upper Limit in a League Year is $40.0 million. A
Club has an Averaged Club Salary of $35.0 million (excluding
Earnable Performance Bonuses up to the full amount of the
Performance Bonus Cushion) for half of the season. A Player who has
an SPC with an Averaged Amount of $4.0 million becomes unfit to
play at the halfway point of the season, and on the same day, the Club
acquires two Players who have SPCs with an aggregate Averaged
Amount of $10.0 million, increasing its Averaged Club Salary to $40.0
million (bringing them to the Upper Limit). The Club then exercises
the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception on the unfit-to-play
Player.
The Club may then replace the unfit-to-play Player with any
Player or Players who have SPCs with an (aggregate) Averaged
Amount of $4.0 million. If these replacements are made at the time of
the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception election
and are
maintained through the conclusion of the season
, the Club's Averaged
Club Salary is $42.0 million, as the Club is permitted to exceed the
Upper Limit by $2.0 million because of the Bona-Fide Long-Term
Injury/Illness Exception.
The other couple examples in the CBA also use the descriptions "elections", "elects" and "exercises" for the team taking advantage of the LTIR Exception. The words "at the time of" are also repeated in all examples for "replacement" players.

The reason I'm curious and asking these questions btw is the illustrations would seem to suggest there are possible non-linear cap implications for exercising LTIR Exceptions.

mouser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-06-2008, 09:48 AM
  #4
Irish Blues
____________________
 
Irish Blues's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Country: St Helena
Posts: 21,804
vCash: 91
I've already asked the league whether or not players are designated as "the replacement players for the injured player." The answer is "no."

Irish Blues is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2010, 08:41 AM
  #5
Bill Ladd
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Bill Ladd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellesley, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 15,155
vCash: 500
A couple questions...

So the way I'm understanding this is that if my team is $1M below the cap, and halfway through the season, we lose a guy making $4M for the year. His cap hit stays. And if his replacement also makes $4M, the LTIE will allow the team to exceed the cap by a pro-rated $4M. So, if nothing else happened, this hypothetical team would be allowed to exceed the cap by $1M.

Question 1) If your replacement player pushes you over the cap, does this eliminate the team from adding any players at the deadline? Had this player not been injured, the team would have been carrying $1M in cap space all year, and could have used that space to add someone to their roster. But now that they have to carry both the injured and the replacement players, they're over. So, is there an adjustment made in the team's cap calculations whereby the LTI money is exempt, and the team would still be allowed to add a player?

Question 2) If a player goes on LTIR for a quarter of the season, then comes off LTIR, and the replacement player is then sent back down. Does that quarter's worth of LTI salary count all season as an exemption?

Thanks

__________________
Bill Ladd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2010, 05:04 PM
  #6
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 11,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayMaker View Post
A couple questions...

So the way I'm understanding this is that if my team is $1M below the cap, and halfway through the season, we lose a guy making $4M for the year. His cap hit stays. And if his replacement also makes $4M, the LTIE will allow the team to exceed the cap by a pro-rated $4M. So, if nothing else happened, this hypothetical team would be allowed to exceed the cap by $1M.

Question 1) If your replacement player pushes you over the cap, does this eliminate the team from adding any players at the deadline? Had this player not been injured, the team would have been carrying $1M in cap space all year, and could have used that space to add someone to their roster. But now that they have to carry both the injured and the replacement players, they're over. So, is there an adjustment made in the team's cap calculations whereby the LTI money is exempt, and the team would still be allowed to add a player?
Contrary to what the CBA says, there isn't really a "replacement" player. The NHL has implemented the LTIR exception such that teams are permitted to go over the cap by the amount of the LTIR. The LTIR exception is automatically applied when a team exercises a transaction they don't have payroll room for. [This interpretation is per a response Irish Blues got on CBA questions he sent to the NHL.]

In the question you pose above, the CBA offers up an illustration that says No, the team cannot add another player [page 230]:
Quote:
Illustration #3: The Upper Limit in a League Year is $40.0 million. A Club has an Averaged Club Salary of $39.0 million (excluding Earnable Performance Bonuses up to the full amount of the Performance Bonus Cushion) for half of the season. A Player who has an SPC with an Averaged Amount of $4.0 million becomes unfit to play at the halfway point of the season. On the same day, the Club exercises the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception on the unfit-to-play Player. The Club may then replace the unfit-to-play Player with any Player or Players who have SPCs with an (aggregate) Averaged Amount of $4.0 million. If these replacements are made at the time of the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception election and are maintained through the conclusion of the season, the Club's Averaged Club Salary is $41.0 million, as the Club is permitted to exceed the Upper Limit by $1.0 million because of the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception.
Based on other commentary since the CBA was written I'm not sure that's how the NHL is actually implementing the rule though. I think your hypothetical team would still be able to add a $2m contract [not pro-rated] anytime between the midpoint and deadline via the LTIR exception. It doesn't matter whether this player is added at the midpoint or the deadline, unused LTIR space does not accumulate like unused Payroll space does as the season progresses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayMaker View Post
Question 2) If a player goes on LTIR for a quarter of the season, then comes off LTIR, and the replacement player is then sent back down. Does that quarter's worth of LTI salary count all season as an exemption?
Yes. For the period the team was over the cap due to exercising the LTIR it's as if they accumulated zero payroll room during that time. Note that it's only the amount the team was over the cap due to the LTIR. So in your example, say the LTIR player was injured midseason, then returned at the 3/4th mark the team would be permitted to finish the season with a club payroll of $500k over the upper limit--the net amount that the replacement player put the team over the cap during the quarter season the LTIR exception was in effect.

mouser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2010, 03:42 PM
  #7
sarcastro
Registered User
 
sarcastro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,245
vCash: 663
Can you put a player on LTIR retroactively? An example being, if a player is injured and two weeks later his injury is found to be more severe than previously anticipated, can the club place him on LTIR effective day 1 of his injury absence?

sarcastro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2010, 04:19 PM
  #8
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,254
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Can you put a player on LTIR retroactively? An example being, if a player is injured and two weeks later his injury is found to be more severe than previously anticipated, can the club place him on LTIR effective day 1 of his injury absence?
Yes. But player has to miss at least 10 games.

LadyStanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2010, 04:31 PM
  #9
Fugu
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Can you put a player on LTIR retroactively? An example being, if a player is injured and two weeks later his injury is found to be more severe than previously anticipated, can the club place him on LTIR effective day 1 of his injury absence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Yes. But player has to miss at least 10 games.

To add to LS's comment, if it's not clear that a player qualifies for LTIR status at the time of his injury, but subsequently is a long term casualty, the club may retroactively place him on LTIR and gain credit for the entire period where his services were lost.

  Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2010, 05:14 PM
  #10
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 11,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
To add to LS's comment, if it's not clear that a player qualifies for LTIR status at the time of his injury, but subsequently is a long term casualty, the club may retroactively place him on LTIR and gain credit for the entire period where his services were lost.
They can retroactively place the player on LTIR, but the club doesn't get any cap benefit for the time between when the player was initially injured and when they placed the player on LTIR. Technically the club doesn't gain any benefit until the LTIR exception is actually used to allow the team payroll to exceed the cap--unused LTIR exception time/$ disappears as it goes unused, it doesn't accumulate like unused payroll room does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Can you put a player on LTIR retroactively? An example being, if a player is injured and two weeks later his injury is found to be more severe than previously anticipated, can the club place him on LTIR effective day 1 of his injury absence?
Yes. As noted above there's no financial gain to retroactively invoking LTIR, however since players on LTIR must miss a minimum of 10 games there could be a benefit to meeting the minimum game requirement if the player is expected to return in the near future.

mouser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2010, 09:28 AM
  #11
Jason MacIsaac
MARS Officer
 
Jason MacIsaac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 16,449
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Jason MacIsaac Send a message via Yahoo to Jason MacIsaac
It seems to be happening this year quite a bit. Does replacement player need to be at the AHL level at the time of the LTIR request? It seems NJ sent Taormina down and brought Henrique up. They then placed Salvador on the LTIR and then today did the flip again with Henrique and Taormina. It was obvious Henrique was not going to play. Any reason to this other then the one I assumed?

It seems Taormina was Salvador's replacement and he wasn't allowed on the team at the time of the request, I guess.

Jason MacIsaac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-11-2010, 10:18 AM
  #12
jacK
Registered User
 
jacK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 2,663
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
It seems to be happening this year quite a bit. Does replacement player need to be at the AHL level at the time of the LTIR request? It seems NJ sent Taormina down and brought Henrique up. They then placed Salvador on the LTIR and then today did the flip again with Henrique and Taormina. It was obvious Henrique was not going to play. Any reason to this other then the one I assumed?

It seems Taormina was Salvador's replacement and he wasn't allowed on the team at the time of the request, I guess.
here's a good article explaining a similar situation in Pittsburgh:
http://thehockeywriters.com/eric-tan...what-happened/

jacK is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:37 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.