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Who do you think (if anyone) should have their jersey retired for the Flyers?

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Old
02-02-2010, 09:35 PM
  #26
FlyHigh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguy View Post
But he didn't win a cup. This is the ultimate goal of hockey and that's why it's one of the specifications set by the team. He has gotten the recognition by being inducted into the Flyers Hall of Fame.
The Cup is a team accomplishment.

Retiring a number is a special way to recognize an individual's contribution.

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02-02-2010, 09:37 PM
  #27
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Howe.

I'm sure MSE could think of someone good.

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02-02-2010, 09:40 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I know people may hate me for this, but what did Ashbee deserve to get his # retired? I never understood it, might as well ask someone more knowledgeable then me.
http://flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/hero.cgi?hero_2_

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02-02-2010, 09:54 PM
  #29
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Scottie Upshall.

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02-02-2010, 10:08 PM
  #30
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What has Howe done to have his # retired? I mean, he was good for a long time but really, his number retired? I even saw HHOF mentioned. Seriously?

How about Brian Propp?

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02-02-2010, 10:09 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
What has Howe done to have his # retired? I mean, he was good for a long time but really, his number retired? I even saw HHOF mentioned. Seriously?

How about Brian Propp?
He should be in the Hall of Fame

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02-02-2010, 10:19 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
He should be in the Hall of Fame
I dont get it. For what reason? Howe was never even the best player on his own team let alone the league.

I would retire Propp's number far before Howe.

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02-02-2010, 10:38 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
cancer. But first he won two cups, and a Conn Smythe and is considered one of the most important players in developing the image, style and soul of those early 70s teams.


EDIT: One cup, and no conn smythe. I had combined him and McLeish into one uber-Bullie. Hopefully this edit comes in time to keep MSE from taking me to school.
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Thanks guys.

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Old
02-02-2010, 10:41 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
I dont get it. For what reason? Howe was never even the best player on his own team let alone the league.

I would retire Propp's number far before Howe.
Seriously?

EDIT: Just for fun, I looked this up. Outside of his partner (Brad McCrimmon), Howe was +57 higher than the next highest Flyer in the 85-86 season.

But yeah, he wasn't the best guy on his own team.

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02-02-2010, 10:50 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Seriously?

EDIT: Just for fun, I looked this up. Outside of his partner (Brad McCrimmon), Howe was +57 higher than the next highest Flyer in the 85-86 season.

But yeah, he wasn't the best guy on his own team.
OK, maybe it was a slight exaggeration on my part but i just dont really think his number should be retired. I'd prefer to see Propp or even 88 retired.

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02-02-2010, 10:51 PM
  #36
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I'd like to see 88 retired. Just to see Eric come back and put everything to rest. I know he had that video last year but to have him actually at the Wach would be great.

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02-02-2010, 10:51 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
The Cup is a team accomplishment.

Retiring a number is a special way to recognize an individual's contribution.
Yes, but winning a Stanley Cup is the ultimate goal for any individual playing the game in the first place. No matter how much you have contributed to the team, if you didn't get the silver bowl, you didn't accomplish your ultimate goal. He had a great career and was a great player, no doubt. But getting your number retired by this team comes with specific requirements, one of which he didn't meet. I'm sure Howe is okay with not having his number retired, as it is what the franchise has decided the requirements are.

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02-02-2010, 10:54 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
OK, maybe it was a slight exaggeration on my part but i just dont really think his number should be retired. I'd prefer to see Propp or even 88 retired.
Why? As good as Propp was, he played in a very offensive era and never finished top-10 in scoring. I'd say he was a very good player, but I don't think he was ever in the upper echelons of the league like Howe was.

As far as the Big E, he only played 486 games in the O and B, might have had "prayer meetings" with Brindy's wife, left the team on very acrimonious terms, and then sabotaged the NHLPA. No thank you.

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02-02-2010, 10:59 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
I dont get it. For what reason? Howe was never even the best player on his own team let alone the league.

I would retire Propp's number far before Howe.
The requirement for the HOF is to be the best player on the team (not league)?

I guess we should pull Phil Esposito, Henri Richard, Ted Lindsay, and Bill Barber out of it then.

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02-02-2010, 11:04 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
The requirement for the HOF is to be the best player on the team (not league)?

I guess we should pull Phil Esposito, Henri Richard, Ted Lindsay, and Bill Barber out of it then.
So I guess Shane Doan and Rick Nash are locks then?

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Old
02-02-2010, 11:05 PM
  #41
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I agree with Lindros. It would be pretty damn cool to see him come back fir it.

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02-02-2010, 11:10 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguy View Post
Yes, but winning a Stanley Cup is the ultimate goal for any individual playing the game in the first place. No matter how much you have contributed to the team, if you didn't get the silver bowl, you didn't accomplish your ultimate goal. He had a great career and was a great player, no doubt. But getting your number retired by this team comes with specific requirements, one of which he didn't meet. I'm sure Howe is okay with not having his number retired, as it is what the franchise has decided the requirements are.
Well then the requirements are just dumb. I bet if you went around the Wach, most fans probably wouldn't know who he was which is criminal for a top-5 guy in franchise history.

I dunno, I'm sure MSE will chip in immensely, but it's a damn shame that his career has seemingly been swept under the rug.

He played LW in the WHA before making the switch to D and still become an elite 2-way D. Also didn't make it to the NHL because of the WHA until he was 24-25 years old.

If you switch 4 WHA seasons to NHL ones and hypothesize that he averages around 50 points per season which is very reasonable IMO, he ends up with 950 points which would put him 10th in the NHL in scoring for a d-man (just ahead of Chelios) behind Bourque, Coffey, MacInnis, Housley, Murphy, Potvin, Lidstrom, Leetch, and Robinson.

And it's not like he was solely an offensive D, he was a great 2-way guy, he's 6th all-time among d-men in +/- and again, if you want to throw hypothetical WHA years into it, he's easily into the top-5 and in Dennis Potvin territory.

I guess this is just an issue I feel really strongly about, but he really is one of the most underrated players in NHL history.

It's an absolute travesty that he isn't in the Hall,

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02-02-2010, 11:12 PM
  #43
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I don't think Lindros deserves it aside from not winning a cup. He may have been one of the top 2 players in the league at one point, and he did win a Hart, but the negativity he brought to this team cancels that out IMO. I think having your number retired for this team also factors in what a player gives back to the organization as well. And all Lindros ever gave back was headaches (not to play on the concussions).

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02-02-2010, 11:14 PM
  #44
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Howe was a great defensemen. Pelle made comments about how much he enjoyed having Howe on the ice when he was. I don't remember the exact quote, however it's in Pelle's book.

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02-02-2010, 11:15 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Well then the requirements are just dumb. I bet if you went around the Wach, most fans probably wouldn't know who he was which is criminal for a top-5 guy in franchise history.

I dunno, I'm sure MSE will chip in immensely, but it's a damn shame that his career has seemingly been swept under the rug.

He played LW in the WHA before making the switch to D and still become an elite 2-way D. Also didn't make it to the NHL because of the WHA until he was 24-25 years old.

If you switch 4 WHA seasons to NHL ones and hypothesize that he averages around 50 points per season which is very reasonable IMO, he ends up with 950 points which would put him 10th in the NHL in scoring for a d-man (just ahead of Chelios) behind Bourque, Coffey, MacInnis, Housley, Murphy, Potvin, Lidstrom, Leetch, and Robinson.

And it's not like he was solely an offensive D, he was a great 2-way guy, he's 6th all-time among d-men in +/- and again, if you want to throw hypothetical WHA years into it, he's easily into the top-5 and in Dennis Potvin territory.

I guess this is just an issue I feel really strongly about, but he really is one of the most underrated players in NHL history.

It's an absolute travesty that he isn't in the Hall,
If your going to average in seasons outside the NHL for him, wouldnt you have to do it for a lot of other players? I dont know how much that would effect things but you cant just thow what ifs in for him and not others.

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02-02-2010, 11:16 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Well then the requirements are just dumb. I bet if you went around the Wach, most fans probably wouldn't know who he was which is criminal for a top-5 guy in franchise history.

I dunno, I'm sure MSE will chip in immensely, but it's a damn shame that his career has seemingly been swept under the rug.

He played LW in the WHA before making the switch to D and still become an elite 2-way D. Also didn't make it to the NHL because of the WHA until he was 24-25 years old.

If you switch 4 WHA seasons to NHL ones and hypothesize that he averages around 50 points per season which is very reasonable IMO, he ends up with 950 points which would put him 10th in the NHL in scoring for a d-man (just ahead of Chelios) behind Bourque, Coffey, MacInnis, Housley, Murphy, Potvin, Lidstrom, Leetch, and Robinson.

And it's not like he was solely an offensive D, he was a great 2-way guy, he's 6th all-time among d-men in +/- and again, if you want to throw hypothetical WHA years into it, he's easily into the top-5 and in Dennis Potvin territory.

I guess this is just an issue I feel really strongly about, but he really is one of the most underrated players in NHL history.

It's an absolute travesty that he isn't in the Hall,
I agree that he is underrated and should have gotten into the Hall, but that's not what we're arguing about here. Also, all the stats you bring up have to be rethunk because Howe played the majority of his career in a high scoring era. If he played in the 70s or 90s how would his numbers match up all time? It's the reason why Coffey, Bourque, and MacInnis will never touch Orr among others.

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Old
02-02-2010, 11:22 PM
  #47
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I totally forgot about Howe (just goes to show that whoever was saying he was underrated before is completely right). He should definitely be up there. I don't think winning a Cup should be a requirement (and who is to say for sure if it is, like someone pointed out, there's only been a team for 40 years and there arguably weren't any Clarkes, Parents, etc after those Cup years). But I really think LeClair and Hextall deserve it (Howe, too, like I said earlier in the post). Leclair is top five in goals on the team and was a mainstay of the Flyers resurgence in the 90s. Hextall is a Flyers legend and no one can argue that. His stats maybe aren't HOF worthy but he WAS Flyers hockey. Not to mention he did lead the team to the cup finals and score the first goal by a goalie in NHL history.

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02-02-2010, 11:26 PM
  #48
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I think Hextall deserves it as well. After all he revolutionizing the position of goaltender.

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02-02-2010, 11:30 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
I dont get it. For what reason? Howe was never even the best player on his own team let alone the league.
If you don't think Howe was the best player on all the mid 80's Flyer teams, you really DON'T get it.

He was every bit as good as all the others mentioned in that era: Bourque, Coffey, whoever. His exclusion from the HHOF is a huge injustice.

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02-02-2010, 11:30 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
If your going to average in seasons outside the NHL for him, wouldnt you have to do it for a lot of other players? I dont know how much that would effect things but you cant just thow what ifs in for him and not others.
Not really, Howe spent 6 years in the WHA I believe before going onto the NHL, not many NHL HoFers spent that much time in another league.

I mean, the HOF has a known vendetta against WHA players, is it a coincidence that the 2 best d-men (by far) not to be in the Hall are JC Tremblay and Mark Howe? Of course not, it's petty and cheap, but that describes a lot of NHL operations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguy View Post
I agree that he is underrated and should have gotten into the Hall, but that's not what we're arguing about here. Also, all the stats you bring up have to be rethunk because Howe played the majority of his career in a high scoring era. If he played in the 70s or 90s how would his numbers match up all time? It's the reason why Coffey, Bourque, and MacInnis will never touch Orr among others.
That's true, but pretty much the entire top of the NHL scoring list played in a high-scoring era. Howe was also pretty consistently one of the top-5 scorers on his team.

I also think the +/- stat is pretty revealing, obviously that doesn't include guys like Orr, Harvey, Shore, and Kelly, but it's still impressive.

I'm not saying the guy is a top-5 all-time D, but he's a borderline top-25 and by far the best d-man to play for the franchise as well as the best player for the club during the 80s.

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