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02-04-2010, 06:25 AM
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Torts fiddles as Rangers burn

Larry Brooks on John Tortorella's constant line juggling and he can't have all three of the Rangers better offensive players on the same line

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Perhaps Tortorella recognized that, for the coach began to juggle his lines midway through the third period. Indeed, when Gaborik scored late in the game, it was off a nifty feed from astute waiver claim Erik Christensen, with whom The Great Gabby seems to be sympatico.
Gaborik, who scored five of the team's six goals over their three-game western tour, is a prize; a spectacular free-agent signing whose production is not dependent upon the identity of his center. And the Rangers don't have nearly enough below to play their three best offensive players together.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...LsRE8uISYrsyRN

When Prospal was out with his knee surgery,Christensen and Dubinsky along with Gabby was a productive line. As soon as Prospal returned,he went back on the line with Gabby and Christensen became a bit player again and then a healthy scratch. Christensen can make plays and get the puck to Gabby. Leave Christensen with Gabby. Torts insists on putting his son with Gabby.

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02-04-2010, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Larry Brooks on John Tortorella's constant line juggling and he can't have all three of the Rangers better offensive players on the same line



http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...LsRE8uISYrsyRN

When Prospal was out with his knee surgery,Christensen and Dubinsky along with Gabby was a productive line. As soon as Prospal returned,he went back on the line with Gabby and Christensen became a bit player again and then a healthy scratch. Christensen can make plays and get the puck to Gabby. Leave Christensen with Gabby. Torts insists on putting his son with Gabby.


As much as I agree with EC being a better fir for Gabby, the team still sucks either way. Brooks is on a mission to attack Torts (which I find entertaining), but LB has to realize that the last "hot streak" the Rangers had were against really bad teams, if that is at all possible.

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02-04-2010, 08:12 AM
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I agree that Torts should let the lines be for a few games, but when they dont score a lick - you have to try and get things going. I have to be fair because I criticized Renney for the same thing.

I think with the last game, he wanted to see what Jokinen could do on the top line and maybe catch lightning in a bottle. I would have done the same. Sometimes you get that first game jolt of a player coming in. I dont blame him for trying that. In fact, i thought he should have left that line alone. I thought they were beginning to figure eachother out with little passes and such and they were starting to cycle the puck nicely. Then he broke them up.

When the Rangers were going good they were rolling 4 lines that were consistent. As soon as they have one bad game he breaks it all up. I think he should go back to the lines that got them some wins, and put Jokinen Avery and Dubinsky, or Callahan.

But it really doesnt matter when you have all shooters and no one to pass them the puck. The Rangers need more playmakers, they have 2 - Prospal and Christensen (and hes just ok at it). Dubinsky isnt a great playmaker, Callahan only know one direction - straight ahead. Drury - lol, Anisimov gets to the net but hes still learning on the job. Outside of Christensen and Prospal, the only other semi-play makers are Gaborik and actually Avery who can make an occasional pass. Jokinen is known as a shooter but he's got pretty good vision too.

We dont have any threat from the blueline except Staal sneaking in and Del Zottos stretch passes that works 25% of the time. Rozsival used to sneak in well but doesnt any more and he cant shoot it on net. Gilroy has a weak shot and has shown nothing even close to what we all got excited about in preseason. Redden + Girardi - lol.

So even if you leave the lines alone and try even imaginable combination - its tough to ask for things to click on a consistent basis with this lineup. When your captain and 7 million dollar forward is playing on the 4th line - and is on pace for under 30 points for the entire season, yeah, you have problems.


Last edited by HockeyBasedNYC: 02-04-2010 at 08:19 AM.
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02-04-2010, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scipio Africanus View Post
....the team still sucks either way.
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
But it really doesnt matter when you have all shooters and no one to pass them the puck.
Like odc's thread yesterday, I disagree that this is about the quality of the roster.

If Tortorella is in touch with the reality of the situation, then he would know he's not a "lightning in a bottle" combination away from opening a floodgate of offense. At some point, you've got to go with chemistry, complimentary parts and pure logic and let it take you as far as it can. It seems pretty obvious where the grabbing at straws approach has gotten the team.

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02-04-2010, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Like odc's thread yesterday, I disagree that this is about the quality of the roster.

If Tortorella is in touch with the reality of the situation, then he would know he's not a "lightning in a bottle" combination away from opening a floodgate of offense. At some point, you've got to go with chemistry, complimentary parts and pure logic and let it take you as far as it can. It seems pretty obvious where the grabbing at straws approach has gotten the team.
indeed.

if torts could think the game like tom renney, and yet still add his enthusiasm and energy to the bench and lockeroom, i think he could atleast get this team to the playoffs.

if he continues to operate in this contrarian manor and 'over coach' he will continue to make this team worse, as he did in la the other night.

he may be the most impatient coach ive ever observed and thats not good.

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02-04-2010, 08:38 AM
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We need Torts Reform ...I like the guy and was very excited to have him coach this lazy group....he needs to stop messing around with the lines...at the start of the season I figured he was trying to find what worked...but it hasnt stopped...leave Gaby and Christensen together.....that seems to be one of the few things on this team that works.

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02-04-2010, 08:39 AM
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The previous coach who shall not be named got HAMMERED on these boards for juggling line combos. Meanwhile, Tortorella looks like a mad scientist compared to him.

At this point, I think the top 6 needs to be:

Dubinsky-Christensen-Gaborik
Prospal-Jokinen-Callahan

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02-04-2010, 08:40 AM
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People seem to be forgetting the "Tom Renney line generator"

http://users.cloud9.net/~wmason/cgi-...negenerator.pl

Dude changed his lines just as much as Tortorella. Let's not start some BS.

Though I can say that yeah I think Tortorella should leave his lines together a little more...he tends to mix things up during games when it isn't working, but then go back to what's worked in the past for the next game.

Also, to be honest I'd be pretty freaked out of I was a coach and I was putting Christensen out there as the teams first line center. That definitely puts a "this is a ****** team" cast on the whole thing. I don't think Christensen is a reliable center for Gaborik overall, and Tortorella knows that.

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02-04-2010, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Like odc's thread yesterday, I disagree that this is about the quality of the roster.

If Tortorella is in touch with the reality of the situation, then he would know he's not a "lightning in a bottle" combination away from opening a floodgate of offense. At some point, you've got to go with chemistry, complimentary parts and pure logic and let it take you as far as it can. It seems pretty obvious where the grabbing at straws approach has gotten the team.
Can't disagree. He changes it up too often and should just rely on logic and patience. He should let the players figure it out on each line. Keep those lines in practice. Work on each individuals role. IF the players arent the right combination to make things work, then you have to assign roles on the line and stick with them. The problem is, there hasnt been any chemistry really... besides Prospal and Gabby. EC and Gaborik has clicked here and there. Lets not make them out to be Hull and Oates.

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02-04-2010, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
People seem to be forgetting the "Tom Renney line generator"

http://users.cloud9.net/~wmason/cgi-...negenerator.pl

Dude changed his lines just as much as Tortorella. Let's not start some BS.

Though I can say that yeah I think Tortorella should leave his lines together a little more...he tends to mix things up during games when it isn't working, but then go back to what's worked in the past for the next game.

Also, to be honest I'd be pretty freaked out of I was a coach and I was putting Christensen out there as the teams first line center. That definitely puts a "this is a ****** team" cast on the whole thing. I don't think Christensen is a reliable center for Gaborik overall, and Tortorella knows that.

***Please note that Prucha is a healthy scratch.***
Still the best part

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02-04-2010, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
if torts could think the game like tom renney....
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Neither one of these guys is what I'd call a strategic hockey mind, and as it's been pointed out, TR certainly had a penchant for line juggling himself. Other than temperment, they could be clones at this point.

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02-04-2010, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Can't disagree. He changes it up too often and should just rely on logic and patience. He should let the players figure it out on each line. Keep those lines in practice. Work on each individuals role. IF the players arent the right combination to make things work, then you have to assign roles on the line and stick with them. The problem is, there hasnt been any chemistry really... besides Prospal and Gabby. EC and Gaborik has clicked here and there. Lets not make them out to be Hull and Oates.
The real problem is, whether Tortorella keeps the lines together for five minutes or five months...this roster is terrible and is going nowhere.

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02-04-2010, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
People seem to be forgetting the "Tom Renney line generator"

http://users.cloud9.net/~wmason/cgi-...negenerator.pl

Dude changed his lines just as much as Tortorella. Let's not start some BS.

Though I can say that yeah I think Tortorella should leave his lines together a little more...he tends to mix things up during games when it isn't working, but then go back to what's worked in the past for the next game.

Also, to be honest I'd be pretty freaked out of I was a coach and I was putting Christensen out there as the teams first line center. That definitely puts a "this is a ****** team" cast on the whole thing. I don't think Christensen is a reliable center for Gaborik overall, and Tortorella knows that.
who freekin cares if ec was waived or not. geez.

no one questions his talent level. he can skate, he passes well and he has a very hard wrist shot. he seems to think the game at a high level as well. with him its been all about confidence and when hes played well for us hes been very effective.

keep him with gaby. hell have a ton of assists by just giving him the puck and really, thats all gaby needs his center to do.

more than anything, torts needs to find 3 guys who can play on the 2nd line and 5 guys on the pp that can get the job done.

do that and were a better team. we still suck until we get rid of dreaden, blowzy and dreary, but were better.

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02-04-2010, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
indeed.

if torts could think the game like tom renney, and yet still add his enthusiasm and energy to the bench and lockeroom, i think he could atleast get this team to the playoffs.

if he continues to operate in this contrarian manor and 'over coach' he will continue to make this team worse, as he did in la the other night.

he may be the most impatient coach ive ever observed and thats not good.


it's not good if u have a young team..they do on d and those guys havent been treated like yo-yo's...the forwards are vets and they need to sense the urgency....and it's highly unlikely we see a positive article from doosh about torts anyways

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02-04-2010, 09:00 AM
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MJ..

it's sometimes difficult to find chemistry among a group that may not make a lot of sense. Renney struggled with his line combinations also, as well as PP combinations. While many were quick to dismiss him as a bad coach, and many are doing the same with Torts, perhaps it's the make-up of these teams that affects the chemistry, not so much the head coach who keeps trying to find it. I'm not saying Torts is doing a great job, but at the same time here's a guy who needs to make the playoffs; otherwise, he's likely out of a job and he needs to find chemistry among 12 guys, half of whom are centerman playing out of position, plus defensemen that includes no two guys who should be on a top pair + Wade Redden.

Heck, he's playing Erik Christenson on a top line (and everybody supports that decision), but this is a guy who was in Anaheim and in 9 games had zero points, after a season in which he had 28 points, after 24 points after 33 points. While people have issues with the maneuvering, they don't have a problem with this guy on this team's top line.

It's about finding the ultimate combinations, on offense and defense. This team has lost enough 1 goal games and played enough games in which they failed to score to surmise that perhaps the forwards are an issue. Unfortunately, trying to find that spark among a group that includes an influx of imported forwards, some of whom didn't work out and some old players, some of whom should've never have been here in the first place, some kids who are getting their first chance, and a defense that cannot bring up the puck. I don't know what anyone's expectations for this team was, but personally, I don't know why they wouldn't be fighting withing that 7-12 spot with the difference being who gets hot when and if Gaborik and Lundqvist remain on top of their game.

Now that I've taken my contrarian view, one I believe has some merit, Torts' work on the PP has been no better than that of his predecessor's. While there are many grips I have, the top one is that Drury, the best PP scorer on this team, didn't start the season on the left side of Gaborik and Prospal (heck, was he even on the PP?). Honestly, that makes little sense. Didn't have an effect early, but it is now and like I said when Prucha went downhill, if a goal scorer doesn't get his chances on the PP, he gets hurt at ES, and that's the difference, I believe, in Drury's season. To me, that's a coach's blatant disregard for what made a player successful throughout his entire career, and that's what I hated about the Rangers' signings and coaches since 1997 - they sign people to play different roles, and play people in different positions/roles when they get here.

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02-04-2010, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
I agree that Torts should let the lines be for a few games, but when they dont score a lick - you have to try and get things going. I have to be fair because I criticized Renney for the same thing.

I think with the last game, he wanted to see what Jokinen could do on the top line and maybe catch lightning in a bottle. I would have done the same. Sometimes you get that first game jolt of a player coming in. I dont blame him for trying that. In fact, i thought he should have left that line alone. I thought they were beginning to figure eachother out with little passes and such and they were starting to cycle the puck nicely. Then he broke them up.

When the Rangers were going good they were rolling 4 lines that were consistent. As soon as they have one bad game he breaks it all up. I think he should go back to the lines that got them some wins, and put Jokinen Avery and Dubinsky, or Callahan.

But it really doesnt matter when you have all shooters and no one to pass them the puck. The Rangers need more playmakers, they have 2 - Prospal and Christensen (and hes just ok at it). Dubinsky isnt a great playmaker, Callahan only know one direction - straight ahead. Drury - lol, Anisimov gets to the net but hes still learning on the job. Outside of Christensen and Prospal, the only other semi-play makers are Gaborik and actually Avery who can make an occasional pass. Jokinen is known as a shooter but he's got pretty good vision too.

We dont have any threat from the blueline except Staal sneaking in and Del Zottos stretch passes that works 25% of the time. Rozsival used to sneak in well but doesnt any more and he cant shoot it on net. Gilroy has a weak shot and has shown nothing even close to what we all got excited about in preseason. Redden + Girardi - lol.

So even if you leave the lines alone and try even imaginable combination - its tough to ask for things to click on a consistent basis with this lineup. When your captain and 7 million dollar forward is playing on the 4th line - and is on pace for under 30 points for the entire season, yeah, you have problems
.


I think you hit it on the head. Not sure if you consider shooters and finishers the same thing, but besides Gaborik nobody can finish inside the face off circle either. The parts that he is constantly interchanging are the same parts, unfortunately most of them are just not that good/skilled.

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02-04-2010, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
If Tortorella is in touch with the reality of the situation, then he would know he's not a "lightning in a bottle" combination away from opening a floodgate of offense. At some point, you've got to go with chemistry, complimentary parts and pure logic and let it take you as far as it can. It seems pretty obvious where the grabbing at straws approach has gotten the team.
Exactly right and really well put.

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02-04-2010, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
It's about finding the ultimate combinations, on offense and defense.
I agree, but your ultimate combination may not be good enough to achieve your DESIRED result. Definitely not EVERY time it hits the ice anyway.

It's not as if the line combinations are the only factor in play here either. Are these guys following the game strategy that's been laid out for them? Has that strategy been tailored for success against your opponent that night?

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02-04-2010, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Neither one of these guys is what I'd call a strategic hockey mind, and as it's been pointed out, TR certainly had a penchant for line juggling himself. Other than temperment, they could be clones at this point.
That's true, but Tom didn't do it to this extent.

Also, Tom occasionally worked out some really good combinations. He had the balls to let Dubinsky center Jagr and it worked, and he stuck with it; then he threw Avery with them -- and even an Avery lover like me initially thought it was crazy -- and that worked, and he stuck with it. He seemed to get people to work with Drury. There are other examples. When Torts finds a good line, it feels more like a blind squirrel finding a nut -- and then he doesn't stick with it anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
But it really doesnt matter when you have all shooters and no one to pass them the puck. The Rangers need more playmakers, they have 2 - Prospal and Christensen (and hes just ok at it). Dubinsky isnt a great playmaker, Callahan only know one direction - straight ahead. Drury - lol, Anisimov gets to the net but hes still learning on the job. Outside of Christensen and Prospal, the only other semi-play makers are Gaborik and actually Avery who can make an occasional pass. Jokinen is known as a shooter but he's got pretty good vision too.
I still think having Avery on a line with Gaborik makes so much sense, and you get to move a playmaker in Prospal down to a line that needs one, but he's just never going to do it.

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02-04-2010, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The previous coach who shall not be named got HAMMERED on these boards for juggling line combos. Meanwhile, Tortorella looks like a mad scientist compared to him.

At this point, I think the top 6 needs to be:

Dubinsky-Christensen-Gaborik
Prospal-Jokinen-Callahan
I agree this should at least get a look for a few games.
He will eventually have to juggle again, because this team just cannot score enough goals.

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02-04-2010, 10:36 AM
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dont really see what Avery brings to the first line, he's not skilled enough to do anything and his ability to grind it out isn't consistent enough.

The only reason he worked with Jagr for a little bit is because Jagr was an incredible player, and as much as I like Gaborik, he's no Jagr

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02-04-2010, 10:45 AM
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I think the lines should look like this

Dubi - EC - Gabby - everytime on the ice they make something happen
Prospal - Jokinen - Cally - playmaker with goalscorer and a callys north south game.
Drury - Anisimov - Lisin - good speed and playmaking ability
Avery - Boyle - Prust - great aggitating fourth line who can hit n stick up for the team

Keep lines like this with spread out scoring and playmakers, have 4 lines that can play and net some goals..whattaya think?

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02-04-2010, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by N9Y4R View Post
I agree this should at least get a look for a few games.
He will eventually have to juggle again, because this team just cannot score enough goals.
Brooks just tweeted that the lines at the morning skate were:

Prospal-Christensen-Gaborik
Dubinsky-Jokinen-Callahan

Switched the two "playmakers," but good enough. Lets try this for more than a period.

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02-04-2010, 10:55 AM
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i dont like it, he needs to switch dubi and prospal.. no point in having 2 playmakers with gabby and no1 that can create space.. and on the 2nd line having no playmakers and 2 players that can creat space.. torts baffles me sometimes

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02-04-2010, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Brooks just tweeted that the lines at the morning skate were:

Prospal-Christensen-Gaborik
Dubinsky-Jokinen-Callahan

Switched the two "playmakers," but good enough. Lets try this for more than a period.
Would prefer the 2 playmakers on different lines, but at least the 2nd line will hit everything on the ice. They better dump and chase all night and pound the D.
Don't want to see Dubi trying to dangle over the blueline all night.

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