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Scott Hartnell: still untouchable?

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Old
02-03-2010, 09:56 AM
  #51
Terence Peterman
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Originally Posted by FlyersRKings View Post
This is a joke, right? Dan Carcillo brings more tenaciousness to the game these days than Scott Hartnell, and he's cut some of the stupid penalties down as well.

'Find me another guy who plays as hard as Hartnell'? 'Hold up to Carter in gameplay'? You might want to look at his stats this year and compare them to Carter's. Are you seriously saying that you would rather have another Scott Hartnell than a Jeff Carter?

HE LEADS THE LEAGUE IN MINORS.
Dan Carcillo has been great this year. We get it. But he's not as good as Scott Hartnell. I don't think he was at all saying he'd rather another Hartnell than a Carter, but that he's a good linemate for Carter. Things aren't going the guy's way this year, that's why his stats are down. It's got nothing to do with his penalties-- he's produced offensively in spite of them pretty much his entire career.

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02-03-2010, 10:09 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by FlyersRKings View Post
Hartnell leads the league in minor penalties.

I'll allow you to take that in.

I'll be 'Charmin' soft' if it means cutting those out of the picture. Enough said.
Who cares....The difference in discipline on this team is light years with Lavi compared to Stevens. If everyone on the team was like that I would have a problem.....Thats his game, it always has been. He plays on the edge. The only reason most people have a problem with it is because a) He hasnt scored as much this year (although neither has the rest of the team) he went in the toilet when the rest of the team did, he was basically a ppg for the first 20.......and because he has become the new designated whipping boy (along with Coburn)

You wont like being charmin soft come playoff time when you have to go up against guys like Knuble, Ovechkin, Kunitz, Guerin, etc.

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02-03-2010, 10:28 AM
  #53
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As of today Hartnell no longer leads the league in minor penalties, Downie is #1.

I like Downie I still think he will be a good player.

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02-03-2010, 10:46 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Sonny View Post
Yes, a down year. You totally overlooked his lack of offense this year until it helped you state how it would make sense to trade him.
Last season was a career year. This season isn't a down year, it's pretty much what is the norm with Hartnell's career. Look at his previous years. He's a 20 goal/40 point scorer. Last year was the first time he scored 30 goals and 60 points. I don't see that ever happening again.

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I don't like a lot of his minors either, but he has held back recently, even if just a bit.
The problem with the minors is that it's always the same stupid thing he gets nailed for (cross checking someone in front of the crease, interfering with goaltenders, tripping, etc.....). You'd figure he would learn where the line is, but he consistently crosses the line. At some point, he's got to improve on that stuff and he just doesn't get it.

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Yeah, you'll love being "Charmin Soft" until you join in crying we're not physical enough or there's no one out there to protect player x on play x against team x.
I like hearing how the Flyers are "Charmin Soft". For years, the Flyers tried replicating the Broad Street Bullies. It got them no where. So, they are now moving towards a skill based game, but yet they still have to be this rock 'em sock 'em team. It's getting old. And I wouldn't classify them as being soft. They may not initiate contact the way the teams of old would, but they aren't afraid of it either.

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Hartnell's got his negatives, but he does good things too...just like nearly everyone else in the league.

To be fair, that contract was signed at what could very easily be called a critical point in Flyers history. On top of considering his 30 goal status last year (which the organization obviously saw him doing) and accounting for everyone else he brings when he's on, yes, I could see him getting a NTC elsewhere.
The problem is that the negatives far outweigh the positives. And once again, he's being paid 4.25 million a season to score. He was brought in to fill a role. That role was to be Knuble's successor and he's failed big time at that. What made Knuble so great was the fact that he never took stupid penalties the way Hartnell does. Hartnell just continues to perform the same act over and over and doesn't care. And that's what bugs me. Eventually all the good players know what the line is and won't cross it. Hartnell just pisses everything in the wind and this team has to play catch up because he's done something idiotic. The guy has been in the league now going on 8 seasons. If you can't establish what the line is in terms of excessively stupid behaviour, then you don't belong in the league.


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Originally Posted by Sonny View Post
If you want to shame the NTCs/NMCs being given out by Holmgren as though they were free condoms at college, that's an entirely different issue. And if you think Hartnell having one is bad consider that Ales Kotalik has one.
Ales Kotalik also makes substantially less money than Hartnell and he's only signed for two more seasons at 6 million over those two years. Hartnell has three years and 12.75 million dollars remaining.

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02-03-2010, 10:52 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
As of today Hartnell no longer leads the league in minor penalties, Downie is #1.

I like Downie I still think he will be a good player.
He has been playing very well lately!

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02-03-2010, 11:11 AM
  #56
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Who cares....The difference in discipline on this team is light years with Lavi compared to Stevens. If everyone on the team was like that I would have a problem.....Thats his game, it always has been. He plays on the edge. The only reason most people have a problem with it is because a) He hasnt scored as much this year (although neither has the rest of the team) he went in the toilet when the rest of the team did, he was basically a ppg for the first 20.......and because he has become the new designated whipping boy (along with Coburn)

You wont like being charmin soft come playoff time when you have to go up against guys like Knuble, Ovechkin, Kunitz, Guerin, etc.
The discipline is better, but Hartnell needs to get his head out of his ass. There's a difference between playing on the edge/being tough/being chippy and selfish penalties. Hartnell's calls are the very definition of selfish penalties...not being disciplined and putting yourself in front of the team. Tons of people have mentioned it already, but that crosscheck the other day is a classic Hartnell penalty, and there's no room for it.

As for the comment that I bolded, it's not that you have to be soft or Hartnell. I don't want to get pushed around, but I sure as **** don't want to see either of those teams get Power Plays against us....You can be just as effective playing "on the edge" and physically, just use your head and find that limit. As BCF pointed out, it's Hartnell's 8th year in the league and he still hasn't done that.

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02-03-2010, 12:00 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Last season was a career year. This season isn't a down year, it's pretty much what is the norm with Hartnell's career. Look at his previous years. He's a 20 goal/40 point scorer. Last year was the first time he scored 30 goals and 60 points. I don't see that ever happening again.
Its absolutely a down year for him. You have to factor in the injuries he has dealth with being a physical player. Over his last 6 seasons he is averaging 27 goals and 50 points per 82 games. He is also averaging a shooting percentage of 12.7. This season he is on pace for 18 goals and 43 points and has a shotting percentage of 9. Do the math. That is a down year for him. The 30 goals last year is much closer to his average than the 18 he is on pace for this year. At the beginning of the year he was on a PPG pace for like the first 20 games or so, then the entire team went in the crapper....He just doesnt seem to be connecting on his shots at the moment, similar to Gagne. I could care less about the minors. That is who he is, and it never hurt his production before....I dont think that has anything to do with lack of production. If anything, I think Carter's slower pace has hurt him more so.

Quote:
The problem with the minors is that it's always the same stupid thing he gets nailed for (cross checking someone in front of the crease, interfering with goaltenders, tripping, etc.....). You'd figure he would learn where the line is, but he consistently crosses the line. At some point, he's got to improve on that stuff and he just doesn't get it.
When you play agressive in front of the net like that, you are going to get penalties....He is an agressive player...you need a couple guys like that.

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I like hearing how the Flyers are "Charmin Soft". For years, the Flyers tried replicating the Broad Street Bullies. It got them no where. So, they are now moving towards a skill based game, but yet they still have to be this rock 'em sock 'em team. It's getting old. And I wouldn't classify them as being soft. They may not initiate contact the way the teams of old would, but they aren't afraid of it either.
I am the one that made the original comment about being soft. It has nothing to do with playing rock 'em sock 'em......It has to do with being able to withstand the punishment of the playoffs....and handling the bigger forwards on teams like Pittsburgh and Washington. Ignoring Carter, whose size is a waste, who the hell in our top 9 forwards can match up with someone like Staal, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kunitz, Guerin, etc. I want Hartnell in the lineup to play against guys like that, to jump in and protect guys like Gagne, Giroux, etc.

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The problem is that the negatives far outweigh the positives. And once again, he's being paid 4.25 million a season to score. He was brought in to fill a role. That role was to be Knuble's successor and he's failed big time at that. What made Knuble so great was the fact that he never took stupid penalties the way Hartnell does. Hartnell just continues to perform the same act over and over and doesn't care. And that's what bugs me. Eventually all the good players know what the line is and won't cross it. Hartnell just pisses everything in the wind and this team has to play catch up because he's done something idiotic. The guy has been in the league now going on 8 seasons. If you can't establish what the line is in terms of excessively stupid behaviour, then you don't belong in the league.
Unfortunately, the stupid behavior was allowed by the previous coach....We will see what happens after some time under Lavi.

He is paid 4.25 million to score, hit, fight, play in front of the next, play solid defensively, and be a power forward. He is not a one dimensional sniper. Ignoring the "down year" he is easily worth 4.25 million. How many power forwards in the league are not getting paid that much??

Quote:
Ales Kotalik also makes substantially less money than Hartnell and he's only signed for two more seasons at 6 million over those two years. Hartnell has three years and 12.75 million dollars remaining.

Ales Kotalik is an absolute waste. Talk about an overpaid player.

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02-03-2010, 12:16 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
The discipline is better, but Hartnell needs to get his head out of his ass. There's a difference between playing on the edge/being tough/being chippy and selfish penalties. Hartnell's calls are the very definition of selfish penalties...not being disciplined and putting yourself in front of the team. Tons of people have mentioned it already, but that crosscheck the other day is a classic Hartnell penalty, and there's no room for it.

As for the comment that I bolded, it's not that you have to be soft or Hartnell. I don't want to get pushed around, but I sure as **** don't want to see either of those teams get Power Plays against us....You can be just as effective playing "on the edge" and physically, just use your head and find that limit. As BCF pointed out, it's Hartnell's 8th year in the league and he still hasn't done that.
Look, we all know he is a bit of a loose cannon and a bonehead sometimes...That is part of his charm That is his game....and I gurantee you it is probably a lot of what makes him effective. I bet you if you take that agressiveness away from him, he isnt as effective.

I dont know which crosscheck you are specifically referring to, but I certainly cant think of a time that a stupid play by Hartnell was the deciding factor in us loosing a game. I am sure it has happened at some point, but the ENTIRE TEAM was an undisciplined mess under the previous coach. He played 2 1/2 years where anything was allowed.....The rest of the season under Lavi, I bet you he is a little more under control next year.

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02-03-2010, 11:55 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Its absolutely a down year for him. You have to factor in the injuries he has dealth with being a physical player. Over his last 6 seasons he is averaging 27 goals and 50 points per 82 games.
Ok, I'm all over this statement because that is so wrong, I don't know where to begin. Over the past six seasons, Hartnell has scored a total of 257 points. Divide that by the six seasons and round up and he's at 43 points per year. Over that same six season span, he scored 131 goals. Divide that by six and he's averaged 22 goals a season over that time. This is not a down year for him. This is on average as to what he would normally get. Last season was a career year for him.


651 career regular season games, 343 regular season points. 39 career playoff games, 15 career points. And that's worth 4.25 million dollars a year because he also "checks and isn't afraid to fight"? Come on, Mike. We don't argue about much (other than Hitch), but Hartnell was a bad signing and he doesn't really bring much to the table. I keep hearing about how there's no one here to face guys like Kunitz, Guerin, Staal, and Malkin, but wasn't that the reason why Holmgren brought in Pronger? So that when playoff time rolls around, he can be that hammer that pounds those guys.

The Flyers are better off without Hartnell in the lineup. Honestly, the locker room issues that we're hearing about (old city, the partying, the fighting amongst guys), I'm wondering if it's Hartnell who might be the cause of this as well. I think the wrong guys (Lupul, Upshall) were sent packing.

EDIT: Hartnell is NOT a power forward. Guys like Tocchet and Neely were power forwards. Hartnell is nothing more than a Shjon Podein clone who has a bit better hands. That's it. To even call Hartnell a power forward is laughable.

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02-04-2010, 12:12 AM
  #60
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my patience is really starting wear out on Hartnell.
Maybe I expected him to build off that nice season he had year where he was so valuable.
He is a shell of that player offensively.
I think it might be best if he is traded. Not sure if he fits int Laviolettes system anyway.

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02-04-2010, 01:13 AM
  #61
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Similar offensive output to the other seasons in his career, maybe a tenth of a ppg less. Getting upset that he's not replicating his 30/30 is like if your boss gives you a huge christmas bonus one year, and you hate him for not doing it every year from then on. It is childishly dumb.

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02-04-2010, 01:19 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by BerubeBox View Post
Similar offensive output to the other seasons in his career, maybe a tenth of a ppg less. Getting upset that he's not replicating his 30/30 is like if your boss gives you a huge christmas bonus one year, and you hate him for not doing it every year from then on. It is childishly dumb.
you think hes a good fit and a good enough skater for Laviolette's system?
I am not so sure.

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02-04-2010, 08:13 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by BerubeBox View Post
Similar offensive output to the other seasons in his career, maybe a tenth of a ppg less. Getting upset that he's not replicating his 30/30 is like if your boss gives you a huge christmas bonus one year, and you hate him for not doing it every year from then on. It is childishly dumb.
For me, it's about the absolute brain dead plays. Sure he's struggling offensively, but he's probably our 4th or 5th best offensive player.

The guy was advertised as being good defensively and lived up to that the first 2 years, but now, all he does is turn the puck over in terrible areas. And I mean, you had that play on the rush where he tanked Horcoff INTO Leighton and then wanted the goalie interference call on Horcoff. That's just ****ing dumb, Oilers easily could have scored while Hartnell was taking our goalie out of the play.

Then you have the shenanigans at the end of course. If he starts playing smart, the goals will come, the problem is that he's playing stupid and I have to say, for someone who's supposed to be good in the crease area, he's ****ing terrible there, we just don't score scrappy goals since Knuble left.

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02-04-2010, 08:13 AM
  #64
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He really irritates me this season. The whole look, how he skates and falls down, his lack of conditioning, his idiotic penalties. He kills every ****ing play out there.

Is he the dumbest player Flyers ever had?

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He has been playing very well lately!
Really? I do not know about that.

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02-04-2010, 12:05 PM
  #65
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Ok, I'm all over this statement because that is so wrong, I don't know where to begin. Over the past six seasons, Hartnell has scored a total of 257 points. Divide that by the six seasons and round up and he's at 43 points per year. Over that same six season span, he scored 131 goals. Divide that by six and he's averaged 22 goals a season over that time. This is not a down year for him. This is on average as to what he would normally get. Last season was a career year for him.


651 career regular season games, 343 regular season points. 39 career playoff games, 15 career points. And that's worth 4.25 million dollars a year because he also "checks and isn't afraid to fight"? Come on, Mike. We don't argue about much (other than Hitch), but Hartnell was a bad signing and he doesn't really bring much to the table. I keep hearing about how there's no one here to face guys like Kunitz, Guerin, Staal, and Malkin, but wasn't that the reason why Holmgren brought in Pronger? So that when playoff time rolls around, he can be that hammer that pounds those guys.

The Flyers are better off without Hartnell in the lineup. Honestly, the locker room issues that we're hearing about (old city, the partying, the fighting amongst guys), I'm wondering if it's Hartnell who might be the cause of this as well. I think the wrong guys (Lupul, Upshall) were sent packing.

EDIT: Hartnell is NOT a power forward. Guys like Tocchet and Neely were power forwards. Hartnell is nothing more than a Shjon Podein clone who has a bit better hands. That's it. To even call Hartnell a power forward is laughable.
Well you are all over nothing buddy. You have to factor in his games played. A couple of those seasons where he has 22-24 goals were in like 65 games or less.....Calculate his goals per game over the past 6 seasons and multiply by 82. Simple as that. Then also take a look at his shooting percentage over the past 6 seasons....it is 3-4 points below his average this year (hence less goals) He has averaged 27 goals per 82 games over the past 5-6 seasons. Dont forget he came in as an 18/19 year old so I didnt account for his first few seasons...

ABSOLUTELY a down year.

I get it, you dont like Hartnell....you never have and you never will. You are the king of bias on here, once you have made up your mind you never change it. You obviously have that right and I am not bashing you for it, but its the truth.

A power forward is someone who uses his size and physical play to get goals. When was the last time you saw Hartnell deak around a dman while on the rush and score??? When was the last time you saw him dangle at the blue line and look for a pass??? He gets the garbage goals in front of the net, and battles dmen by playing physical. POWER FORWARD


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02-04-2010, 12:13 PM
  #66
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He really irritates me this season. The whole look, how he skates and falls down, his lack of conditioning, his idiotic penalties. He kills every ****ing play out there.

Is he the dumbest player Flyers ever had?

Really? I do not know about that.
I am talking about Downie....go to Tampa's board, and the thread I started here. He is playing very well.

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02-04-2010, 12:15 PM
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For me, it's about the absolute brain dead plays. Sure he's struggling offensively, but he's probably our 4th or 5th best offensive player.

The guy was advertised as being good defensively and lived up to that the first 2 years, but now, all he does is turn the puck over in terrible areas. And I mean, you had that play on the rush where he tanked Horcoff INTO Leighton and then wanted the goalie interference call on Horcoff. That's just ****ing dumb, Oilers easily could have scored while Hartnell was taking our goalie out of the play.

Then you have the shenanigans at the end of course. If he starts playing smart, the goals will come, the problem is that he's playing stupid and I have to say, for someone who's supposed to be good in the crease area, he's ****ing terrible there, we just don't score scrappy goals since Knuble left.
Well, its only fair....Carcillo got called for goaltender interference against the Islanders after he was pushed into the goalie

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02-04-2010, 12:15 PM
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He is paid 4.25 million to score, hit, fight, play in front of the next, play solid defensively, and be a power forward. He is not a one dimensional sniper. Ignoring the "down year" he is easily worth 4.25 million. How many power forwards in the league are not getting paid that much??
This statement hurts my brain. He doesn't score, hits occasionally, makes me wish Knuble was here in front of the net to show you how a player SHOULD play in front of the net, and could never be considered a power forward.

On top of that, we're paying him close to Carter's salary to be an abysmal player with inexplicably bad passing, a penchant to take atrocious penalties, and fight.

We pay Asham and Carcillo a quarter of what he makes to do the same things, and they do it better.

If Hartnell's production was 4 times what they do, then maybe he'd be worth 4.25 million. I would rather, however, find an actual power forward with some skill to boot and a leash on his temper.

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02-04-2010, 12:18 PM
  #69
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Well you are all over nothing buddy. You have to factor in his games played. A couple of those seasons where he has 22-24 goals were in like 65 games or less.....Calculate his goals per game over the past 6 seasons and multiply by 82. Simple as that. Then also take a look at his shooting percentage over the past 6 seasons....it is 3-4 points below his average this year (hence less goals) He has averaged 27 goals per 82 games over the past 5-6 seasons. Dont forget he came in as an 18/19 year old so I didnt account for his first few seasons...
I don't have to factor in jack. His stats are his stats and there's nothing that can be done about that. His numbers are what they are. If you feel the need to defend his wretched play and that ludicrous contract Holmgren gave him, by all means. But FACT is, he scored 251 points over the past six seasons. FACT is, he scored 131 goals over that time. Whether or not he missed games is besides the point. His numbers are what they are - he's a 22 goal/42 point forward who is making a ludicrous amount of money for what he brings to the table.

And this isn't some bias. I never liked him in Nashville. I never liked him in junior hockey. He was always overrated.

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02-04-2010, 12:24 PM
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This statement hurts my brain. He doesn't score, hits occasionally, makes me wish Knuble was here in front of the net to show you how a player SHOULD play in front of the net, and could never be considered a power forward.

On top of that, we're paying him close to Carter's salary to be an abysmal player with inexplicably bad passing, a penchant to take atrocious penalties, and fight.

We pay Asham and Carcillo a quarter of what he makes to do the same things, and they do it better.

If Hartnell's production was 4 times what they do, then maybe he'd be worth 4.25 million. I would rather, however, find an actual power forward with some skill to boot and a leash on his temper.
Yeah yeah yeah....and last year everyone loved him when he scored 30 goals......Take a look at THE ENTIRE LINEUP. The entire team went in the crapper for almost two months. Scoring is down among most of our forwards compared to last year.....

How about Carter???? Why isnt everyone bashing him??? He is on pace for only 32 goals compared to his 46 last year. HE SUCKS. TRADE HIM.

How about Richards??? He is only on pace for 64 points instead of the 80 he had last year. HE SUCKS. TRADE HIM.

You can look at everyone on this team and see that they arent scoring on the same pace as last year. EVERYONE.....Our third leading scorer is a dman for god sake, when was the last time that happened???

Hartnell's numbers are down this season like the rest of the team, simple as that. Everybody just decided he is our #1 whipping boy now and ignores the fact that Carter and Richards are on a much slower pace than last year as well.

And where in anything did you see me say he was better than Knuble??? Knuble was light years better at playing in front of the net, we all know that. Which is why the moron Holmgren should have waived Jones and kept Knuble....but hey, what do I know??? It is so shocking to me that Richards/Gagne numbers are down after they lost their RW from basically all of last season and they dont have anyone to replace him.

Hartnell has just as many goals as Asham and Carcillo combined.....while playing dreadful.


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02-04-2010, 12:27 PM
  #71
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I am talking about Downie....go to Tampa's board, and the thread I started here. He is playing very well.
O yes.. Of course he is.. Strong on the puck, good passes, tries to skate hard but still takes way too many penalties.

I think it will go away once he gets used to NHL.

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02-04-2010, 12:29 PM
  #72
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I don't have to factor in jack. His stats are his stats and there's nothing that can be done about that. His numbers are what they are. If you feel the need to defend his wretched play and that ludicrous contract Holmgren gave him, by all means. But FACT is, he scored 251 points over the past six seasons. FACT is, he scored 131 goals over that time. Whether or not he missed games is besides the point. His numbers are what they are - he's a 22 goal/42 point forward who is making a ludicrous amount of money for what he brings to the table.

And this isn't some bias. I never liked him in Nashville. I never liked him in junior hockey. He was always overrated.
Yes you do. You cant call someone a 22 goal player when that 22 goals is in 60 games.....Last time I checked the hockey season is 82 games....but maybe I am watching a different league than you, I dont know.

Thats like saying Cam Neely was a 28 goal scorer over his last 4 seasons in the NHL, when he never played more than 49 games.....had 11 goals in 13 games one year, 50 in 49 the next. 27 in 42games and then 26 in 49 games. Your math doesnt compute.

I am not defending his play at all.....I am saying that he is having a down year, am I not???? If I was defending his play I wouldnt be acknowledging that fact. Carter and Richards are as well and nobody is killing them.....I could sit here and ***** constantly that if I see Carter let up one more time going behind the net instead of using his speed and his body to pounce on the dman and get the puck I am going to flip....You know what, that is who he is....He is never going to use his size like we want, or play more physical like we want. He is who he is.....Same with Hartnell....He is a loose cannon on the ice, always has been, always will be.

And the fact that you just said you never liked the guy is the absolute definition of bias....You never liked him, therefore you never will regardless of what he does. He was perfectly fine the 2nd half of his first season here all the way through 20 games this season (where he was started off the year averaging almost a PPG) Anyone that isnt bias would have turned around that time (and many did) saying that they were wrong....they liked how he was playing, etc. You didnt. You kept on bashing cause you just dont like the guy, period.


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02-04-2010, 12:32 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
And where in anything did you see me say he was better than Knuble??? Knuble was light years better at playing in front of the net, we all know that. Which is why the moron Holmgren should have waived Jones and kept Knuble....but hey, what do I know??? It is so shocking to me that Richards/Gagne numbers are down after they lost their RW from basically all of last season and they dont have anyone to replace him.
My point is you're defending him as if he's well worth the 4.25 million he's making.

Don't get me started on Jeff Carter. He needs to figure out another move other than the shot from a bad angle from the top of the circle after skating down the wing. But he still only makes 750,000 more than Hartnell, and I thought the Carter deal was atrocious as well. Is he only worth .75 million more than Harts?

Knuble made 2.8 million. You just admitted you'd rather have him than Hartnell for two-thirds the cap hit - most likely still less than Hartnell even if we had given him that raise he wanted.

He was never worth the salary we gave him, because he doesn't do one thing very well. He does 'everything' - with mediocrity.

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02-04-2010, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyersRKings View Post
My point is you're defending him as if he's well worth the 4.25 million he's making.

Don't get me started on Jeff Carter. He needs to figure out another move other than the shot from a bad angle from the top of the circle after skating down the wing. But he still only makes 750,000 more than Hartnell, and I thought the Carter deal was atrocious as well. Is he only worth .75 million more than Harts?

Knuble made 2.8 million. You just admitted you'd rather have him than Hartnell for two-thirds the cap hit - most likely still less than Hartnell even if we had given him that raise he wanted.

He was never worth the salary we gave him, because he doesn't do one thing very well. He does 'everything' - with mediocrity.
Find me a player of his size that scores between 25-30 goals that, and here is the most important thing, WAS SIGNED AS A FA, and is making less than $4.25. And players less than 24 years old dont count, cause their next contract will absolutely be making more than that. He is playing like **** right now, no doubt....but he was certainly worth it last year, and 3/4 of the prior year after getting off to a slow start. He started off this season on PPG pace...he went in the crapper when everyone else did, and is the last one to come out of the slump obviously....hence why his play really stands out at this point, in a bad way.

No, I didnt say I rather have Knuble than Hartnell....I rather have kept Knuble in addition to Hartnell, instead of Jones.

I am not going to debate Carter's contract. That is what younger "stars" are making these days....cant do anything about it. You are contradicting yourself though. You cant say that Carter's deal is atrocious and then question if he is worth only .75 more than Hartnell???

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02-04-2010, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Find me a player of his size that scores between 25-30 goals that, and here is the most important thing, WAS SIGNED AS A FA, and is making less than $4.25. And players less than 24 years old dont count, cause their next contract will absolutely be making more than that. He is playing like **** right now, no doubt....but he was certainly worth it last year, and 3/4 of the prior year after getting off to a slow start. He started off this season on PPG pace...he went in the crapper when everyone else did, and is the last one to come out of the slump obviously....hence why his play really stands out at this point, in a bad way.

No, I didnt say I rather have Knuble than Hartnell....I rather have kept Knuble in addition to Hartnell, instead of Jones.

I am not going to debate Carter's contract. That is what younger "stars" are making these days....cant do anything about it. You are contradicting yourself though. You cant say that Carter's deal is atrocious and then question if he is worth only .75 more than Hartnell???

It's a question of relative contract value, not the actual $. Carter was totally given a bloated contract for his statistics at the time: 29 goals, 24 assists for a whopping 53 points. Apparently that means you get a $5 million contract. There was no way Holmgren could have known his production would increase by 30 points.

But that's besides the point. Carter is still worth more than Hartnell by any stretch of the imagination, and a good deal more, I would imagine. Which makes Hartnell's contract look even more ridiculous. If Carter's was bloated, it makes Hartnell's look like Peter Griffin.

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