No, but ignoring Gretzky and Mario, Jagr is easily the best between him, Forsberg, and Lindros. You think he would be the one getting the most blind homer votes.
No you wouldn't. Any pens fans votes are going to go to Lemieux to try to keep his total up there with Gretzky's.
Just out of curiousity...Is there anyone that did NOT vote for Gretzky that was around when he was in his prime, and actually old enough to watch and understand what they were seeing? Let's say, born before 1970.
I'm not saying someone cannot evaluate players if they haven't seen them, there is plenty of old game tape, articles, etc. that are great resources one can use, but there is something to be said for actually witnessing something as it is happening, day in and day out. I myself was too young to actually comprehend what was going on when Gretzky was really in his prime. I am curious to see if there's anyone that was around to see it and still doesn't consider him the clear answer for this one.
Just out of curiousity...Is there anyone that did NOT vote for Gretzky that was around when he was in his prime, and actually old enough to watch and understand what they were seeing? Let's say, born before 1970.
Not me, not in his prime. I saw Gretzky play in the 1990's, past his prime. I especially remember him in the 1993 Stanley Cup finals. I've also seen pretty much all Gretzky tribute videos and highlights on youtube. He was the smartest player the game has ever seen. His most amazing quality (in my opinion) was that he seemed to know where all 10 players were on the ice at all times, which allowed him to make absolutely sick "blind" passes tape to tape. Another great quality that made him so great is that he did the right thing with the puck. Most of the time he took the right decision. He knew what to do, and even if he didn't have the best shot in the NHL, he scored 92 goals, simply because he knew how to score goals. He was also a great skater, perhaps the most fluid and gracious of his era.
BUT I personally think Lemieux was more dominant. Gretzky's superiority was that he used his teamates like no other player in history. But Lemieux didn't need to use teamates. He could skate right through everyone and score. Lemieux is, to me, the most dominant player ever.
Just out of curiousity...Is there anyone that did NOT vote for Gretzky that was around when he was in his prime, and actually old enough to watch and understand what they were seeing? Let's say, born before 1970.
I'm not saying someone cannot evaluate players if they haven't seen them, there is plenty of old game tape, articles, etc. that are great resources one can use, but there is something to be said for actually witnessing something as it is happening, day in and day out. I myself was too young to actually comprehend what was going on when Gretzky was really in his prime. I am curious to see if there's anyone that was around to see it and still doesn't consider him the clear answer for this one.
I was born in 59. I didn't vote for Gretzky I voted for Lemieux
BUT I personally think Lemieux was more dominant. Gretzky's superiority was that he used his teamates like no other player in history. But Lemieux didn't need to use teamates. He could skate right through everyone and score. Lemieux is, to me, the most dominant player ever.
Why is using teammates worse than doing it on your own? I've never seen a hockey game that was one-on-one. If anything, I think Gretzky's use of his teammates was a smarter way to dominate. He didn't have to fight through 2 defensemen, come in on the goalie with one hanging on his back, and put the puck in. While doing something like that is very impressive looking, it's extremely taxing on your body physically. Gretzky could produce the same result (a goal for his team) by instead of skating through or around the defenders, skating into the zone, curling back, drawing in 2 or 3 opposing players and sliding it over to an open teammate trailing the play. The fact that Gretzky could "dominate" at AT LEAST the same level as Lemieux, but did so in a way that was much less harsh on his body physically makes him better in my book...Actually, a combination of that and a better playoff resume'.
Why is using teammates worse than doing it on your own? I've never seen a hockey game that was one-on-one. If anything, I think Gretzky's use of his teammates was a smarter way to dominate. He didn't have to fight through 2 defensemen, come in on the goalie with one hanging on his back, and put the puck in. While doing something like that is very impressive looking, it's extremely taxing on your body physically. Gretzky could produce the same result (a goal for his team) by instead of skating through or around the defenders, skating into the zone, curling back, drawing in 2 or 3 opposing players and sliding it over to an open teammate trailing the play. The fact that Gretzky could "dominate" at AT LEAST the same level as Lemieux, but did so in a way that was much less harsh on his body physically makes him better in my book...Actually, a combination of that and a better playoff resume'.
I agree, just because Lemieux was a living highlight reel doesn't make him more dominant, Gretzky did the exact same thing (putting the puck in the back of the net and pile on points) without the dangles and one man rushes.
The top two vote getters so far were predictable enough. Surprised to see Forsberg with more votes than Lindros and Jagr combined. That's pretty laughable, since he has a hard enough time even beating Sakic out in similar polls usually.
Why is using teammates worse than doing it on your own?
It's not worse, just different. Lemieux is still the second best playmaker in history. In their primes, both were dominant, but it's very close. I guess when it's that close it comes down to personal preference. I could watch Lemieux highlights all day, he was a monster.
Do you honestly think Jagr was the least dominant of these 5 players.
It's a toss between Lemieux and Gretzky but Jagr is clearly the 3rd most dominant.
Judging from your avatar you're a Canadiens fan. Do you remember what Jagr used to do to your team in the 90's some of the most amazing highlight reel goals of his came against your team.
Jagr was "way" more than just nice dekes and goals.
Gretzky. Setting 61 NHL records is the very definition of domination. He dominated his peers, he dominated the opposition, he dominated the record books with totals that will never be broken. Mario came close when he was healthy, but he was injured a lot more (not even including the cancer), which gives Gretzky the edge. Also, Gretzky ruled the league for basically an entire decade straight, while Lemieux dominance was a little more intermitant. Lemieux, however, was more physically imposing.
How can winning 9 Harts and 10 Art Ross's NOT be considered dominant? No one should have votes except Gretzky and Lemieux in this poll.
There's a difference between being dominant offensively on 50% of the rink when you have the puck, or dominant both defensively and offensively, over the whole rink - with and without the puck.
There's a difference between being dominant offensively on 50% of the rink when you have the puck, or dominant both defensively and offensively, over the whole rink - with and without the puck.
There's a difference between being dominant offensively on 50% of the rink when you have the puck, or dominant both defensively and offensively, over the whole rink - with and without the puck.
Maybe lemiuex and gretzky shouldve played goalie too then maybe they could be considered dominant players
Make mine the guy who averaged 200 points over a couple year span.
There's a difference between being dominant offensively on 50% of the rink when you have the puck, or dominant both defensively and offensively, over the whole rink - with and without the puck.
Gretzky dominated even without the puck. The 50% of the time he didn't have the puck he had either already passed it to an open teammate, or was skating to where he knew it was going to be next... in preparation of either scoring himself or passing it to an open teammate.
Gretzky.
No seriously. The aim of the game is to score more goals than the other team. It helps to dominate them physically, it's great if you're good on the puck or off the puck or can stop the other team from scoring...
but Gretzky.
The other things are what allow the other players to even approach him.
Lemieux trails Gretzky by over 1100 regular season points, over 200 playoff points, 2 Stanley Cups, 4 art ross trophies, 6 hart trophies and a +/- differential over 400. There is no other serious debate with such a large discrepancy between 2 players as this one. The gap between Lemieux and Gretzky would be enough to put any player in the Hall of fame. Forsberg for example, doesn't even have 1000 career points. Nevermind 200 playoff points or whatever.
The only thing that makes this comparison remotely close is PPG, and Lemieux trails in both regular season and playoff PPG. Lemieux also took a lot more penalties than Gretz. A bad thing for someone who did not energize his team with physical play. They played the same brand but Gretzky was far more effective at it. Really, is there any doubt? Gretzky is the greatest ever....possibly of any major sport for that matter. Not just hockey.
The only thing that makes this comparison remotely close is PPG, and Lemieux trails in both regular season and playoff PPG.
To compare PPG you have to compare year for year or adjust the stats. For example Peter Stastny has higher PPG than Gordie Howe but when you adjust the stats it's not even close.
In adjusted points (hockey-reference.com), Lemieux has 1.68 PPG to 1.66 PPG for Gretzky.
To compare PPG you have to compare year for year or adjust the stats. For example Peter Stastny has higher PPG than Gordie Howe but when you adjust the stats it's not even close.
In adjusted points (hockey-reference.com), Lemieux has 1.68 PPG to 1.66 PPG for Gretzky.
Career PPG stats are not fair to use when comparing these two, whether they are adjusted or not. Gretzky played WAY more post-prime games than Lemieux.
Games Played at age 31 or older
Gretzky: 562 - 37.8% of total career games
Lemieux: 246 - 26.9% of total career games
Note: Age 31 was picked rather arbitrarily. This is not meant to be an exact age where the primes of these two ended. I probably should have said Gretzky played WAY more games at an older age than Lemieux did.
Last edited by Hawkey Town 18: 02-04-2010 at 12:51 PM.
then maybe they could be considered dominant players 
