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Kovalchuk, Salmela traded to the Devils, for Oduya, Bergfors, Cormier and a first

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Old
02-05-2010, 11:05 AM
  #451
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Who knows...there are 25 games to go, and we have no idea who we are playing. Can we beat the Devs? Yes. Can we beat the Pens? Yes. Can we beat the Caps? NO.

....

fixed for ya.

Caps are unstoppable

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02-05-2010, 11:06 AM
  #452
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I actually think Atl got pretty good value for a rental and I do not for a second believe that Carter and Roo,& jvr were ever all asked for in one deal with what the return turned out to be. My guess is Atl wanted Roo or JVR, Defenseman and picks and that is a trade we could not make due to no picks and no cap room. And as a guy who watches a lot of Atl games, watch the **** out for the Devils
I dont think they ever would have asked for them in one deal, but the absolutely asked for at least one of JVR/Giroux and I wouldnt have done that if it were me.

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02-05-2010, 11:06 AM
  #453
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Who knows...there are 25 games to go, and we have no idea who we are playing. Can we beat the Devs? Yes. Can we beat the Pens? Yes. Can we beat the Caps? Yes.
I do not know what is going to happen in 25 games games and I am not basing my opinion on things I do not know.

Based on how we played 55 games I said 2nd round exit which is fair. 2 years ago Flyers finished hot and beat Washington a year ago we lost a few games to the Rangers and Pens took us out. In both years we did not have enough to go all the way.

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02-05-2010, 11:10 AM
  #454
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Originally Posted by kammy View Post
fixed for ya.

Caps are unstoppable


Definition of "stoppable" in the NHL.

And that's before dealing with their defensive unit.

Caps are 18th in the league in goals against per game. They're very, very similar to the Buffalo Sabres out of the lockout, and as of now I think they'll suffer the same fate. A stellar regular season team, with a wide open game that looks great until they run into the playoffs where trouble lurks.

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02-05-2010, 11:13 AM
  #455
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post


Definition of "stoppable" in the NHL.

And that's before dealing with their defensive unit.

Caps are 18th in the league in goals against per game. They're very, very similar to the Buffalo Sabres out of the lockout, and as of now I think they'll suffer the same fate. A stellar regular season team, with a wide open game that looks great until they run into the playoffs where trouble lurks.
I wish we could just sticky this, so it'd be easily accessible for everyone who states the Caps are anything along the lines of "unstoppable." They're not a team built for the playoffs.

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02-05-2010, 11:15 AM
  #456
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
I dont think they ever would have asked for them in one deal, but the absolutely asked for at least one of JVR/Giroux and I wouldnt have done that if it were me.
I agree , the only way I wanted Kovy was if we could move something like Harts and one of Coburn/Carle, but you knew that was not going to happen with Harts NTC. I hope we can add a Dman and maybe a UFA winger before the deadline though.

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02-05-2010, 11:23 AM
  #457
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I wish we could just sticky this, so it'd be easily accessible for everyone who states the Caps are anything along the lines of "unstoppable." They're not a team built for the playoffs.
I also didn't mention how terrible their division is (who the Caps are 12-2 against). This isn't to say the Caps are not a very good team, as they are...and I'll be shocked if they go out in the first round (not saying that), but I think they'll have very tough series after that.

However, I think the Devs are a much more dangerous playoff team...especially if they can get Kovy situated and popping goals for them.

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02-05-2010, 11:25 AM
  #458
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I think some people here have been traumatized by our recent failures against the Penguins.

With a few more breaks I think we beat the Pens last postseason, and they were the eventual Stanley Cup champions. Who knows what could've happened with a healthy defense in 2007-08. Anything can happen when two good teams clash.

I'm not trying to sound overly optimistic, but I think people are underestimating our chances.

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02-05-2010, 11:27 AM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I think some people here have been traumatized by our recent failures against the Penguins.

With a few more breaks I think we beat the Pens last postseason, and they were the eventual Stanley Cup champions. Who knows what could've happened with a healthy defense in 2007-08. Anything can happen when two good teams clash.

I'm not trying to sound overly optimistic, but I think people are underestimating our chances.
Two years ago, we were not going through that Pens team...they were significantly better than everyone in the East that year. Last year, we could have beat them...this year we can beat them. If we're playing like we have been, and like we did prior to the collapse...we can play with anyone.

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02-05-2010, 11:59 AM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I think some people here have been traumatized by our recent failures against the Penguins.

With a few more breaks I think we beat the Pens last postseason, and they were the eventual Stanley Cup champions. Who knows what could've happened with a healthy defense in 2007-08. Anything can happen when two good teams clash.

I'm not trying to sound overly optimistic, but I think people are underestimating our chances.
I agree. 2 years ago even with a heathy Timonen and Coburn we dont beat them. It wouldnt of been as easy as it was for Pittsburgh that year but the Flyers still lose.
Last year we were 2 minutes away from splitting in Pittsburgh and then won game 3.
We all know what happened in game 6. If Laviolette is the coach of that team we win that game and most likely the series.
I dont care what anyone says.
I still think the Flyers are going to have to add a player or 2 for a deep, deep playoff run.
As far as the Caps go I want to see how Varlamov is for the playoff push if hes healthy. Because Theodore is not the answer in goal no matter how well he was playing before giving up 5 to the Rangers last night.
Varlamov was the key to their run last year before they eventually lost to Pittsburgh in 7.

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02-05-2010, 12:02 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
I agree. 2 years ago even with a heathy Timonen and Coburn we dont beat them. It wouldnt of been as easy as it was for Pittsburgh that year but the Flyers still lose.
Last year we were 2 minutes away from splitting in Pittsburgh and then won game 3.
We all know what happened in game 6. If Laviolette is the coach of that team we win that game and most likely the series.
I dont care what anyone says.
I still think the Flyers are going to have to add a player or 2 for a deep, deep playoff run.
As far as the Caps go I want to see how Varlamov is for the playoff push if hes healthy. Because Theodore is not the answer in goal no matter how well he was playing before giving up 5 to the Rangers last night.
Varlamov was the key to their run last year before they eventually lost to Pittsburgh in 7.
Lets slow down.

They beat the Rangers (a terrible offensive team) and then he got LIT UP by the Pens. .952 against the Rangers, and a .898 (3.74 GAA) against the Pens. Some of that is the Caps style, but I watched 5 or 6 of those games, and he let in some ugly, ugly goals against the Pens. Caps were a solid goaltending performance away from beating the Pens.

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02-05-2010, 12:26 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Lets slow down.

They beat the Rangers (a terrible offensive team) and then he got LIT UP by the Pens. .952 against the Rangers, and a .898 (3.74 GAA) against the Pens. Some of that is the Caps style, but I watched 5 or 6 of those games, and he let in some ugly, ugly goals against the Pens. Caps were a solid goaltending performance away from beating the Pens.
To be fair though, Varlamov was very green in terms of NHL play, he had only played 6 regular season games prior to that.

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02-05-2010, 12:29 PM
  #463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Lets slow down.

They beat the Rangers (a terrible offensive team) and then he got LIT UP by the Pens. .952 against the Rangers, and a .898 (3.74 GAA) against the Pens. Some of that is the Caps style, but I watched 5 or 6 of those games, and he let in some ugly, ugly goals against the Pens. Caps were a solid goaltending performance away from beating the Pens.

If the Caps stuck with Theodore in round 1 they get beat by that Rangers team.
They definitely need to beef up their blueline.
I didnt watch alot of that series, just trying to go by memory.

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02-05-2010, 12:32 PM
  #464
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To be fair though, Varlamov was very green in terms of NHL play, he had only played 6 regular season games prior to that.
Absolutely...but they had the Rangers in the first round, and they were dominating them. Henrik was just playing outstanding hockey.

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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
If the Caps stuck with Theodore in round 1 they get beat by that Rangers team.
They definitely need to beef up their blueline.
I didnt want alot of that series, just trying to go by memory.
Probably true, but that's more because Theodore sucks...than Varlamov is all that special. They just had an opponent in the first round that sucked at scoring goals all year.

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02-05-2010, 12:40 PM
  #465
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Back to the topic at hand. Anyone read Mckenzie's article today on the trade? I 100 percent agree with him.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=309019

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02-05-2010, 12:45 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
Back to the topic at hand. Anyone read Mckenzie's article today on the trade? I 100 percent agree with him.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=309019
Yeah, I always said Kovalchuk would go pretty cheap in the end.

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02-05-2010, 12:51 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I watched 5 or 6 of those games, and he let in some ugly, ugly goals against the Pens. Caps were a solid goal tending performance away from beating the Pens.
Agreed. I think if he plays this year though we're in for a different thing altogether. His hands still didn't look amazing when I watched him this year, but they did look more consistent (he wasn't still letting those muffin wristers from above the dots), and his foot work has been top notch from day 1.

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02-05-2010, 01:01 PM
  #468
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Yeah, I always said Kovalchuk would go pretty cheap in the end.
Yep, Pretty much spot on with the "rumors" of some of the names that were out there. I didnt buy any of it.
Only thing I didnt like on Atlanta's end was them agreeing to swap 2nd round picks. Which I would have made conditional of the Devils winning the Cup.
Salmela is just fodder in this trade.

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02-05-2010, 01:13 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
Back to the topic at hand. Anyone read Mckenzie's article today on the trade? I 100 percent agree with him.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=309019
I have to disagree here, look at the UFA deals at last couple years' deadlines.

Kotalik netted a 2nd rounder.
Dominic Moore netted a 2nd.
Derek Morris netted Kalinin, Prucha, and Dawes
Antropov got a 2nd and a conditional
Leopold netted Ryan Wilson and a 2nd.
Brian Campbell netted Bernier and a 1st.
Brad Stuart netted a 2nd and a 4th.


Now you are talking about a guy orders of magnitude better here, NJ may well be the primary favorite to win the Cup.

And Waddell gets back a d-man who's drastically overpaid based on his performance this year, a top-9 prospect by some accounts (and Bergfors has certainly tailed off), a guy who will probably never play in the NHL, and a 1st.

That's pathetic. I'd rather trade Kovalchuk for 1 good prospect than that pile of crap.

And he knocked his 2nd down about 20-25 slots.

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02-05-2010, 01:32 PM
  #470
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I have to disagree here, look at the UFA deals at last couple years' deadlines.

Kotalik netted a 2nd rounder.
Dominic Moore netted a 2nd.
Derek Morris netted Kalinin, Prucha, and Dawes
Antropov got a 2nd and a conditional
Leopold netted Ryan Wilson and a 2nd.
Brian Campbell netted Bernier and a 1st.
Brad Stuart netted a 2nd and a 4th.


Now you are talking about a guy orders of magnitude better here, NJ may well be the primary favorite to win the Cup.

And Waddell gets back a d-man who's drastically overpaid based on his performance this year, a top-9 prospect by some accounts (and Bergfors has certainly tailed off), a guy who will probably never play in the NHL, and a 1st.

That's pathetic. I'd rather trade Kovalchuk for 1 good prospect than that pile of crap.

And he knocked his 2nd down about 20-25 slots.
Eh, I think you're underestimating how screwed Waddell was. He basically had to deal Kovy prior to the Olympics, which meant he had an artificial deadline that no one else had to worry about. I'm curious if Waddell might have gotten more after the Olympics...but he would have then had to risk Kovy getting hurt and ending up getting nothing back.

On top of that, everyone knows Kovy is basically un-signable by anyone that lacks significant cap space...so that takes out a LOT of the trading partners, because the teams with cap space are probably not in a position to be trading for Kovy as of now.

He got a NHL D (sure, there are problems), a young NHL forward (as McKenzie notes, Bergfors may or may not be anything special, but he's a NHL forward), Cormier (has his problems, but he is a legit prospect), and a 1st.

Not too bad. So they'll miss the playoffs now (almost definitely) and have two picks in the first rd and start over.

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02-05-2010, 01:45 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Eh, I think you're underestimating how screwed Waddell was. He basically had to deal Kovy prior to the Olympics, which meant he had an artificial deadline that no one else had to worry about. I'm curious if Waddell might have gotten more after the Olympics...but he would have then had to risk Kovy getting hurt and ending up getting nothing back.

On top of that, everyone knows Kovy is basically un-signable by anyone that lacks significant cap space...so that takes out a LOT of the trading partners, because the teams with cap space are probably not in a position to be trading for Kovy as of now.

He got a NHL D (sure, there are problems), a young NHL forward (as McKenzie notes, Bergfors may or may not be anything special, but he's a NHL forward), Cormier (has his problems, but he is a legit prospect), and a 1st.

Not too bad. So they'll miss the playoffs now (almost definitely) and have two picks in the first rd and start over.
Obviously he was in a tight situation, I don't think anyone is disputing that. But those guys get paid the big bucks to come up big in those situations.

The more I look at Oduya, the more skeptical I am. Pavel Kubina has been a horse for that team, but he's a UFA after the year and with Oduya's contract, they now have Oduya at 3.5, Hainsey at 4.5, Enstrom at 3.75, and Bogosian at 3.375, so signing Kubina just became impossible and he's been their 2nd best d-man this year.

I see Oduya as almost a net-negative for ATL in this deal.

Then you have Bergfors who spent 3 years in the AHL before cracking the NHL, had a hot start, and doesn't have a goal since December 30. Doesn't have a point since Jan. 5. Not thrilled about that piece if I'm an ATL fan.

Then you have Cormier who is a thug with a terrible disciplinary record.

Then the 1st which will probably be 27-28 or even 30th and that's at least diluted by the fact that ATL is trading down 20-25 spots in the 2nd round.

He did not get back a single decent asset outside of the 1st.

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02-05-2010, 01:53 PM
  #472
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He did not get back a single decent asset outside of the 1st.
Okay, we can quibble about Oduya and Cormier (whose issues have nothing to do with his actual hockey skill), but Bergfors is a friggin rookie...and is a decent asset. Not a world beater, but he is a guy that should be in the NHL for some time.

Again, I'm not sure what you expected to happen here. 17 of the 30 teams in the NHL have <$2M in cap space as of today. Kovy had $2.2M left (and we'll leave aside dealing with pro-rating and LTIR and all that crap). For a lot of teams trading for Kovy represented a serious cap problem this year...so you're talking about significant alterations to their roster to facilitate the deal.

You know you're almost definitely not re-signing him... his value wasn't that great.

And that's before dealing with any GMs that think like me...in that Kovy just isn't a player that I necessarily want on a team competing for a Cup.

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02-05-2010, 02:05 PM
  #473
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Okay, we can quibble about Oduya and Cormier (whose issues have nothing to do with his actual hockey skill), but Bergfors is a friggin rookie...and is a decent asset. Not a world beater, but he is a guy that should be in the NHL for some time.

Again, I'm not sure what you expected to happen here. 17 of the 30 teams in the NHL have <$2M in cap space as of today. Kovy had $2.2M left (and we'll leave aside dealing with pro-rating and LTIR and all that crap). For a lot of teams trading for Kovy represented a serious cap problem this year...so you're talking about significant alterations to their roster to facilitate the deal.

You know you're almost definitely not re-signing him... his value wasn't that great.

And that's before dealing with any GMs that think like me...in that Kovy just isn't a player that I necessarily want on a team competing for a Cup.
I'm not saying Bergfors is necessarily a bust, but he's been in pros for 4 years and still has yet to make a significant impact. I think he'll be a good 3rd liner at least, but 2nd line might even be a push especially from what McKenzie was saying.

Again, if I'm dealing a guy who's a top-5 NHL forward, I want at least some kind of good prospect back and I don't want a contract back that's going to prevent me from signing one of my best d-men.

Obviously Waddell was in the hole, but you can't tell me that other teams weren't at least interested in Kovalchuk and that couldn't couldn't have initiated some kind of fight. The team that gets Kovalchuk automatically becomes a significant Cup favorite.

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02-05-2010, 02:11 PM
  #474
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I'm not saying Bergfors is necessarily a bust, but he's been in pros for 4 years and still has yet to make a significant impact. I think he'll be a good 3rd liner at least, but 2nd line might even be a push especially from what McKenzie was saying.

Again, if I'm dealing a guy who's a top-5 NHL forward, I want at least some kind of good prospect back and I don't want a contract back that's going to prevent me from signing one of my best d-men.
...

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February 26, 2008: Traded to Pittsburgh by Atlanta with Pascal Dupuis for Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen, Angelo Esposito and Pittsburgh's 1st round choice (Daulton Leveille) in 2008 Entry Draft, February 26, 2008.
And I think Hossa is a better player for a team trying to win a Championship.

The salary cap has altered the reality here of what is possible in deals. Teams that might have bid on a deal (us, for example) didn't because of the salary cap. And due the salary cap, teams covet their young players and picks a lot more than they used to.

Quote:
Obviously Waddell was in the hole, but you can't tell me that other teams weren't at least interested in Kovalchuk and that couldn't couldn't have initiated some kind of fight. The team that gets Kovalchuk automatically becomes a significant Cup favorite.
I'm sure other teams were interested, but given the artificial deadline of the Olympics there is no way Waddell was going to maximize this deal. If Kovy goes and shreds his groin at the Olympics (a la Elias) the Devs just got effed. If Kovy hadn't been traded and shredded his groin, the Thrashers would have been effed.

And I disagree that Kovy is that important a factor in handicapping the Stanley Cup. For any team not used to playing with a guy like Kovy (read, the Devs) it maybe take them a while to adjust to what he does out there and the puck demands he comes with.

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02-05-2010, 02:18 PM
  #475
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Cormier was a bigger part of this deal than the posts in here suggests. Cormier has skills as well as being a tough and even dirty guy. Lamoriello says including him was the toughest part of the trade, and Waddell insisted on Cormier or no deal.

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