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Kovalchuk, Salmela traded to the Devils, for Oduya, Bergfors, Cormier and a first

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Old
02-05-2010, 02:20 PM
  #476
Jester
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Originally Posted by CJV123 View Post
Cormier was a bigger part of this deal than the posts in here suggests. Cormier has skills as well as being a tough and even dirty guy. Lamoriello says including him was the toughest part of the trade, and Waddell insisted on Cormier or no deal.
I call BS on Lou's part. It might be true, but I don't think it's an accident that Cormier embarrassed himself and quickly found himself in a different organization. Not saying Lou was going to give him away, but I doubt he's shedding tears over him either.

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02-05-2010, 02:28 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
The more I look at Oduya, the more skeptical I am. Pavel Kubina has been a horse for that team, but he's a UFA after the year and with Oduya's contract, they now have Oduya at 3.5, Hainsey at 4.5, Enstrom at 3.75, and Bogosian at 3.375, so signing Kubina just became impossible and he's been their 2nd best d-man this year.

I see Oduya as almost a net-negative for ATL in this deal.
It's no guarentee that Atlanta would have been able to sign Kubina regardless. Plus he is turning 33, so I'm not sure if he's the kind of guy they felt safe in offering a 3+ year deal. Obviously Kubina is still effective, a lot of us (myself included) had Kubina on the radar as a potential rental before all of this went down. Oduya's got a couple good years left and they could reallocate Kubina's money towards supplementing their offense next season.

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Then you have Bergfors who spent 3 years in the AHL before cracking the NHL, had a hot start, and doesn't have a goal since December 30. Doesn't have a point since Jan. 5. Not thrilled about that piece if I'm an ATL fan.
To be fair, Bergfors took a weird route. Not a lot of 18 year olds go directly to the AHL. Tedenby spent a couple more years in the SEL after being drafted and he'll probably do a year in the AHL before cracking the NHL roster, at which point he'll be almost the same age as Bergfors was this season.

If you're an Atlanta fan, I don't think there's a lot of ways to be thrilled about trading Kovalchuk. At least looking forward, they have Afinogenov and Armstrong as impending UFAs. Bergfors certainly helps fill a hole if either/both leave.

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Then you have Cormier who is a thug with a terrible disciplinary record.
It's been a weird six weeks for Cormier. Before the first elbowing incident, he was just a nasty Holik-esque 3rd line prospect that we were all excited about. Now the elbowing incidents put him in the spotlight when we heard nothing but good things before.

You would hope that Cormier's gotten the wakeup call by now that those sort of shenanighans won't be accepted. I believe Waddell's already alluded to them expecting Cormier competing for an NHL spot next season. Atlanta's prospect center depth wasn't great either.

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Then the 1st which will probably be 27-28 or even 30th and that's at least diluted by the fact that ATL is trading down 20-25 spots in the 2nd round.

He did not get back a single decent asset outside of the 1st.
Yeah, the swapping of 2nds was definitely strange on their part.

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02-05-2010, 02:40 PM
  #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...
And I think Hossa is a better player for a team trying to win a Championship.

The salary cap has altered the reality here of what is possible in deals. Teams that might have bid on a deal (us, for example) didn't because of the salary cap. And due the salary cap, teams covet their young players and picks a lot more than they used to.
And I already broke down how Atlanta got assbanged in that deal.

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15-Feb-07 Philadelphia Flyers traded Peter Forsberg to the Nashville Predators for Ryan Parent, Scottie Upshall, a 1st round selection and a 3rd round selection in 2007.
Very similar situations here, if anything, Forsberg is much less of an asset than Kovy/Hossa. Flyers got back a very solid D prospect, a very solid forward who can play anywhere in the lineup, and a 1st.

Now, would you rather have a shutdown D prospect, a sparkplug winger who will pot 20-25 per year, and a 1st or an overpaid d-man, a forward described as an "enigma" who is poor defensively, a prospect who is suspended and a dirty player, and a 1st in the same area of the draft?

I take the Flyers deal all week and twice on Sundays.

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I'm sure other teams were interested, but given the artificial deadline of the Olympics there is no way Waddell was going to maximize this deal. If Kovy goes and shreds his groin at the Olympics (a la Elias) the Devs just got effed. If Kovy hadn't been traded and shredded his groin, the Thrashers would have been effed.
Yeah, definitely a factor, but again, that's why they get the big bucks.

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And I disagree that Kovy is that important a factor in handicapping the Stanley Cup. For any team not used to playing with a guy like Kovy (read, the Devs) it maybe take them a while to adjust to what he does out there and the puck demands he comes with.
I dunno, I think he is, we can agree to disagree.

I have a basic fundamental problem with the way Waddell approached the situation. Instead of deciding that getting picks/prospects and clearing cap space was the way to go, he decided to try to do some window dressing by getting marginal NHLers.

If I'm Waddell, I immediately go to LA (who was offering prospects).

I want 1 of Hickey/Moller/Schenn/Voynov/Loktionov. Depending on which one the Kings are willing to give (and they'd be willing to give at least 1 IMO), you then ask for Parse/Richardson (solid 3rd liners who the Kings probably won't be able to afford down the line) and depending on the combo, then get a pick.

Hypothetically you get Hickey/Richardson/2nd.

Now you have your top-3 set for the next decade on D (Bogosian/Enstrom/Hickey), you have a real solid 3rd line plug who can support your top-6 (and you already have Little/Peverley/Kane/Antropov there) and you get a decent pick, probably around 50 or so, to supplement your draft class.

Plus, you get 6.4 mill in cap space after this year plus Armstrong's and Kozlov's expirings to go after some decent FAs.

I don't see how that's a worse deal than what Waddell got and I think it's very feasible.

Of course, the smartest thing would have been to deal Kovalchuk last year (I said this at the time), but too late now.

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02-05-2010, 02:48 PM
  #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Of course, the smartest thing would have been to deal Kovalchuk last year (I said this at the time), but too late now.
Hindsight is 20/20. Waddell knew how far he was prepared to go to keep Kovy. It's asking a lot of him to foresee that he wouldn't be able resign Kovalchuk for $8.4 x 12 years.

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02-05-2010, 02:52 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post

I don't see how that's a worse deal than what Waddell got and I think it's very feasible.
No offense, but you have no idea what's feasible. Maybe Waddell asked for just that and got scoffed at?

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02-05-2010, 02:55 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
And I already broke down how Atlanta got assbanged in that deal.
Which was not the general perception of that trade at the time...at all. Now, perhaps you were all over that at the time, but folks generally thought Atlanta had done alright in that deal when it went down. In retrospect, it didn't work out...but that's how these things go.

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Very similar situations here, if anything, Forsberg is much less of an asset than Kovy/Hossa. Flyers got back a very solid D prospect, a very solid forward who can play anywhere in the lineup, and a 1st.

Now, would you rather have a shutdown D prospect, a sparkplug winger who will pot 20-25 per year, and a 1st or an overpaid d-man, a forward described as an "enigma" who is poor defensively, a prospect who is suspended and a dirty player, and a 1st in the same area of the draft?

I take the Flyers deal all week and twice on Sundays.
Flyers got good defensive prospect that had previous back problems (look how that has worked out), a sparkplug winger (who had shown less at the NHL level than Bergfors), and a 1st.

Part of your evaluation is that you simply don't think very highly of Cormier. But the real thing is that I think your misreading just how far the market has fallen off for these types of deals...both because teams covet their young players/picks a bit more, and because the salary cap structure of the league has become ridiculously tight.

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02-05-2010, 02:56 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I call BS on Lou's part. It might be true, but I don't think it's an accident that Cormier embarrassed himself and quickly found himself in a different organization. Not saying Lou was going to give him away, but I doubt he's shedding tears over him either.
Waddell was quoted as saying that having Cormier in the package was a must for him, so whether Lou had soured on him or not, he had was Don wanted.

Cormier is a very good prospect, solid, talented, tough 2-way player. Born to be a Devil and exactly the kind of guy Lou loves.

He'll have a great NHL career, he just needs to keep his elbows down for a while. By training camp it will be forgotten. Love to have in the Flyers' system.

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02-05-2010, 03:06 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post


Definition of "stoppable" in the NHL.

And that's before dealing with their defensive unit.

Caps are 18th in the league in goals against per game. They're very, very similar to the Buffalo Sabres out of the lockout, and as of now I think they'll suffer the same fate. A stellar regular season team, with a wide open game that looks great until they run into the playoffs where trouble lurks.
The Flyers are equally as bad when it comes to goaltending though. The Flyers goals against average is 2.69 while the Caps is 2.68. The Caps are also better in save percentage .913 vs .905.

The Caps may be stoppable due their goaltending, but the Caps still have the edge in any matchup vs the Flyers.


Last edited by Haute Couturier: 02-05-2010 at 03:11 PM.
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02-05-2010, 03:06 PM
  #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Hindsight is 20/20. Waddell knew how far he was prepared to go to keep Kovy. It's asking a lot of him to foresee that he wouldn't be able resign Kovalchuk for $8.4 x 12 years.
Well, the point is that I said it at the time, I don't feel like going back a year through posts, but Waddell should have offered Kovy something and if Kovy said no, should have dealt him then and there and gotten twice as much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel
No offense, but you have no idea what's feasible. Maybe Waddell asked for just that and got scoffed at?
You seriously think LA turns down that offer considering they'll probably be a pretty serious player in the Kovy sweepstakes?

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Which was not the general perception of that trade at the time...at all. Now, perhaps you were all over that at the time, but folks generally thought Atlanta had done alright in that deal when it went down. In retrospect, it didn't work out...but that's how these things go.
I don't recall this at all, I thought ATL got screwed in that deal, I thought more people had that opinion at the time?

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Flyers got good defensive prospect that had previous back problems (look how that has worked out), a sparkplug winger (who had shown less at the NHL level than Bergfors), and a 1st.
Upshall was clearly a guy who desperately needed a change of scenery, but Bergfors has had about 40 good games, so I wouldn't exactly say he's shown anything at the NHL level. Upshall had 24 in 48 with Nashville in 05-06 before injury problems in 06-07, Bergfors has 27 in 54...

As for Parent, not surely how widely known the back stuff was at the time. People knew it was there, but I don't think it was viewed as a chronic problem (maybe NSH knew something no one else did).

Quote:
Part of your evaluation is that you simply don't think very highly of Cormier. But the real thing is that I think your misreading just how far the market has fallen off for these types of deals...both because teams covet their young players/picks a bit more, and because the salary cap structure of the league has become ridiculously tight.
Which is why taking on an overpriced player makes that deal all the more retarded.

And sure Cormier has a nice toolbox, but the brain appears to be lacking. Was already criticized for 2 elbows at the WJCs and then goes and does that as soon as he gets back? Serious attitude problem there and those kind of hits just show such a blatant lack of respect for fellow players, I have a problem with guys like that.

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02-05-2010, 03:22 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Very similar situations here, if anything, Forsberg is much less of an asset than Kovy/Hossa. Flyers got back a very solid D prospect, a very solid forward who can play anywhere in the lineup, and a 1st.

Now, would you rather have a shutdown D prospect, a sparkplug winger who will pot 20-25 per year, and a 1st or an overpaid d-man, a forward described as an "enigma" who is poor defensively, a prospect who is suspended and a dirty player, and a 1st in the same area of the draft?

I take the Flyers deal all week and twice on Sundays.
I don't think anybody's gonna argue that Philly got a pretty good package for Forsberg. The slight difference is that they were decidedly out of the playoffs at that point, plus had the financial resources to be a player in free agency. They could taking prospects knowing they could also spend money to lure Danny Briere, Kimmo Timonen, and Scott Hartnell a few months later.

The Thrashers still have a reasonable shot at the playoffs. So Waddell wanted immediate help. Again, it's questionable strategy as you mentioned, but that was their goal. Atlanta also probably wouldn't be a prime free agent destination that Philly would have been in 2007.

And it's not like Ryan Parent's really torn the cover off the NHL to this point. All of us have the tendency to overrate Parent's potential and gloss over Oduya putting up 25+ points and playing 20+ minutes the last couple of years.

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If I'm Waddell, I immediately go to LA (who was offering prospects).

I want 1 of Hickey/Moller/Schenn/Voynov/Loktionov. Depending on which one the Kings are willing to give (and they'd be willing to give at least 1 IMO), you then ask for Parse/Richardson (solid 3rd liners who the Kings probably won't be able to afford down the line) and depending on the combo, then get a pick.
I watch a lot of Kings games and spend a good deal of time on their boards......not entirely sure I would call Parse a solid 3rd liner. Ryan Smyth and Justin Williams had cascading injuries and the Kings didn't have any other AHL wingers worth calling up. Kinda doubt Lombardi would have dealt Hickey or Schenn for a potential rental right now.

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Hypothetically you get Hickey/Richardson/2nd.
This would be a tough sell to the non-fanatic fanbase. We just traded Kovalchuk for a guy with 7 goals this year, a prospect defenseman who is out for the season, and a mid 2nd rounder? Basically throwing in the towel on the season. At least by getting Bergfors/Oduya, they can say they still intend on fighting for a playoff spot.

Richardson's played really well lately, but it wasn't too long ago that Kings fans were calling him a waste of space.

Like others mentioned, I think you're underselling Cormier based on the elbowing incidents. Six weeks ago, Cormier was a great looking 3rd line prospect who was named Captain of the Canadian WJC team. These elbowing incidents tarnish his image, but doesn't mean he can't reach his potential.

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02-05-2010, 03:57 PM
  #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Hindsight is 20/20. Waddell knew how far he was prepared to go to keep Kovy. It's asking a lot of him to foresee that he wouldn't be able resign Kovalchuk for $8.4 x 12 years.
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Well, the point is that I said it at the time, I don't feel like going back a year through posts, but Waddell should have offered Kovy something and if Kovy said no, should have dealt him then and there and gotten twice as much.
My point is that you said it at the time, but I bet your idea of getting maximum value then was predicated on Atlanta not being able to resign him. Since Waddell knew he was willing to go as far as he was, he is pretty justified in feeling confident in his ability to get Kovalchuk signed. Who turns down 101million/12years, or 70million/7years? I was saying hindsight is 20/20 in regards to knowing Kovy wouldn't sign for that much.

We're also ignoring the value to Atlanta of a final year of Kovalchuk.

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02-05-2010, 04:25 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
You seriously think LA turns down that offer considering they'll probably be a pretty serious player in the Kovy sweepstakes?
I don't know. All I'm saying is, nobody knows what kind of offers Waddell was fielding, or how serious any of the teams really were. Practically the entire league was rumored to be interested (okay, every team in the playoff hunt). Who knows how serious anyone really was, or what pieces they were offering?

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02-05-2010, 09:41 PM
  #488
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I think Atlanta could have done a tad better, but it was a decent return for what amounts to a really, really good rental. NJ obviously got the best of the deal, but Atlanta's return wasn't bad. They got a decent prospect, another first, and a couple of decent roster players. Not bad for a team like Atlanta that needs to develop some guys through the draft in order to improve. Come summer time they'll have two first round picks and Cormier added to their prospect pool. It's a good start.

NJ is also another Cup candidate now, which sucks, but there's so many strong teams this year that it's anybody's guess as to who wins it all. Chicago, SJ, Washington, Pittsburgh, and now NJ are all great teams. Heck, even when Philly is playing to their potential (which we've seen them do) they're among the best in the East.

Only top team right now that I don't see going far is Buffalo. They rely far too much on Miller to get anywhere I think.

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02-06-2010, 10:43 AM
  #489
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I think Jester's really onto something when he says that Washington's stats are somewhat inflated due to the terrible division they play in. A GAA of is 2.68 and a SV% of .913 for a team that gets to play Carolina, Tampa Bay, Florida and Atlanta a bunch of times each year is underachieving.

If Washington isn't running up the score on teams, they can't beat them.

That being said, I think that Washington's below-average goaltending might be good enough to win them a cup because their offense is potent enough to make up for this. They're sort of like the Saints in the NFL, who can cover up their weaknesses in stopping the running game by building a big lead and thus, forcing teams to abandon the run. If they can jump out to early leads and play a more defensive style to cover that shortcoming, they can go deep in the playoffs.

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02-06-2010, 10:54 AM
  #490
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The Devils got a great deal.

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