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Any reason torts won't shadow star players...

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Old
02-04-2010, 10:00 PM
  #1
XthedoodX
 
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Any reason torts won't shadow star players...

tonight's loss was due to many things, poor defense, some weak goaltending, bad penalties, weak penalty calls, etc but I am not going to dwell on it for once. I am just curious why Torts, who seems so apt to juggle lines like they are going out of style and make sure Staal is out on defense against AO, won't try and shadow him? I am not saying it will work, but we can't stop him or certain other premier players (Crosby, Kovalchuk, Parise, etc.) on a nightly basis, why not have avery skate with him step for step and drive him crazy? he certainly has the wheels and can drive him crazy, or maybe callahan? Just seems to me as has been mentioned elsewhere Torts really has no answers and won't try different things, same formula of different lines and hope it works. Not sure if this was addressed elsewhere, I know the game has changed, but a guy like Jan Erixon could bother mario for an entire game and shut him down, why can't we try it in 2010, just once?

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02-04-2010, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by XthedoodX View Post
tonight's loss was due to many things, poor defense, some weak goaltending, bad penalties, weak penalty calls, etc but I am not going to dwell on it for once. I am just curious why Torts, who seems so apt to juggle lines like they are going out of style and make sure Staal is out on defense against AO, won't try and shadow him? I am not saying it will work, but we can't stop him or certain other premier players (Crosby, Kovalchuk, Parise, etc.) on a nightly basis, why not have avery skate with him step for step and drive him crazy? he certainly has the wheels and can drive him crazy, or maybe callahan? Just seems to me as has been mentioned elsewhere Torts really has no answers and won't try different things, same formula of different lines and hope it works. Not sure if this was addressed elsewhere, I know the game has changed, but a guy like Jan Erixon could bother mario for an entire game and shut him down, why can't we try it in 2010, just once?
Dude seriously who can read this block text? Use the enter key.

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02-04-2010, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Whoot Whoot View Post
Dude seriously who can read this block text? Use the enter key.
Dude seriously there is punctuation... you know like in books, maybe you are familiar? Maybe?

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02-04-2010, 10:16 PM
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Why is it a sin for a Ranger to actually hit someone? Rozy tried to stick check Ovechkin for what seemed like an eternity on the goal with 8 seconds to go in the 2nd. All he had to do was step up and push him in his chest and no goal. Instead they blow the 2 goal lead and ultimately the game. He really does suck.

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02-04-2010, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Why is it a sin for a Ranger to actually hit someone? Rozy tried to stick check Ovechkin for what seemed like an eternity on the goal with 8 seconds to go in the 2nd. All he had to do was step up and push him in his chest and no goal. Instead they blow the 2 goal lead and ultimately the game. He really does suck.
Would have been nice if he played the body instead of the puck, but he didn't and the king gave up a garbage goal. I was honestly hoping for a goalie change and some Prince Chad.

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02-04-2010, 10:21 PM
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squishy
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The "shadow" defense pretty much went out with the Lockout.

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02-04-2010, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by squishy View Post
The "shadow" defense pretty much went out with the Lockout.
Yeah but why not? what do the rangers have to lose at this point, clearly staal girardi or staal rozy are not going to shut down an AO or crosby, why not try something else? Torts gets paid a lot more than me and has time to think about these things, I wonder what he does all day long, for real?

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02-04-2010, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Why is it a sin for a Ranger to actually hit someone? Rozy tried to stick check Ovechkin for what seemed like an eternity on the goal with 8 seconds to go in the 2nd. All he had to do was step up and push him in his chest and no goal. Instead they blow the 2 goal lead and ultimately the game. He really does suck.
Yeah that goal was the backbreaker for the rangers. They just made it a 2 goal game and to give up that kind of goal with 8 seconds left was awful. Drury made a horrible play in the offensive zone and turned the puck over. All Rozy needed to do was just bump him off the puck.

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02-04-2010, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by XthedoodX View Post
Yeah but why not? what do the rangers have to lose at this point, clearly staal girardi or staal rozy are not going to shut down an AO or crosby, why not try something else? Torts gets paid a lot more than me and has time to think about these things, I wonder what he does all day long, for real?
Fo real son, fo real.

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02-04-2010, 10:31 PM
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squishy
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Originally Posted by XthedoodX View Post
Yeah but why not? what do the rangers have to lose at this point, clearly staal girardi or staal rozy are not going to shut down an AO or crosby, why not try something else? Torts gets paid a lot more than me and has time to think about these things, I wonder what he does all day long, for real?
Because shadowing a player relies heavily on being able to get in his way and box him out and hook and hold and all those little things that are now called as penalties. You can have a player chase Ovechkin around the ice all night, but if said player can't touch him until the puck is already on his stick, you're not going to accomplish much of anything.

As for what Torts does all day long... your guess is as good as mine.

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02-04-2010, 10:33 PM
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Yeah that goal was the backbreaker for the rangers. They just made it a 2 goal game and to give up that kind of goal with 8 seconds left was awful. Drury made a horrible play in the offensive zone and turned the puck over. All Rozy needed to do was just bump him off the puck.
Yup, I was at the Garden looking up at the clock saying to myself if we can just run the last 3 and change off the clock we can win this game. Of course that was wishful thinking...game over.

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02-04-2010, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by squishy View Post
Because shadowing a player relies heavily on being able to get in his way and box him out and hook and hold and all those little things that are now called as penalties. You can have a player chase Ovechkin around the ice all night, but if said player can't touch him until the puck is already on his stick, you're not going to accomplish much of anything.

As for what Torts does all day long... your guess is as good as mine.
I know what you are saying about hooking and holding, its not possible, but say cally follows him everywhere he goes, passes will be forced leading to turnovers, he certainly shouldn't be wide open like he was much of the game, and maybe AO for example gets annoyed and takes dumb penalties himself.

Again this would take a smart and fast player... so maybe not for avery, but why can't we try anything? So frustrating and I am only a fan, they could have beaten the caps tonight I can only imagine how annoyed some players are, emphasis on SOME.

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02-04-2010, 11:43 PM
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Kel Varnsen
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Ovechkin would eat Avery alive...

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02-05-2010, 08:03 AM
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Vito Andolini
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Originally Posted by XthedoodX View Post
I know what you are saying about hooking and holding, its not possible, but say cally follows him everywhere he goes, passes will be forced leading to turnovers, he certainly shouldn't be wide open like he was much of the game, and maybe AO for example gets annoyed and takes dumb penalties himself.
OK...have you not noticed that Ovechkin is faster and stronger than anyone on this team? And have you not noticed that he has absolutely no problem shooting the puck through our players?

But fine, suppose we "shadow" Ovechkin.

3 things are still going to happen:
1. We'll take penalties left and right because Ovechkin is impossible to stop with legal measures
2. He'll still score because he's the best player in the league
3. The other 4 players on the ice will pick us a part because they aren't a 1 man team.


Last edited by Vito Andolini: 02-05-2010 at 10:35 AM.
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02-05-2010, 08:09 AM
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I'm not sure who the Rangers would use to shadow any top player. There isn't a defenseman nor is there a forward who can handle such a player. Perhaps Torts should speak to Ryan about how to mask a defense so Ovechkin and others feel as though they're moving through the neutral zone freely, only to be smothered once he enters the offensive zone, and that smothering occurs differently each time.

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02-05-2010, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by XthedoodX View Post
I know what you are saying about hooking and holding, its not possible, but say cally follows him everywhere he goes, passes will be forced leading to turnovers, he certainly shouldn't be wide open like he was much of the game, and maybe AO for example gets annoyed and takes dumb penalties himself.

Again this would take a smart and fast player... so maybe not for avery, but why can't we try anything? So frustrating and I am only a fan, they could have beaten the caps tonight I can only imagine how annoyed some players are, emphasis on SOME.

What you are saying is not unreasonable. What would the team have to lose if they "tried it"? Would they of scored 10 goals with a man shadowing him all night? Probably not. They may be not be a "one man team" but if Ovie was out of the lineup it certainly would look alot different.

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02-05-2010, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by msg View Post
Yeah that goal was the backbreaker for the rangers. They just made it a 2 goal game and to give up that kind of goal with 8 seconds left was awful. Drury made a horrible play in the offensive zone and turned the puck over. All Rozy needed to do was just bump him off the puck.
Not for nothing, yes Rozsival got beat by Ovechkin but Lundqvist just cannot let that kind of goal in. 8 seconds left, 8 minutes left, 18 minutes left, that goal cannot go in. But back to the original post, I wouldn't say Renney shadowed these kind of players but he definetely matched lines. Staal was always out there against Ovechkin along with the Sjostrom-Betts-Orr line. For whatever reason Tortorella doesn't do it. I've kind of given up trying to figure out what he does. He's stubborn and he's going to do what he thinks is right, unfortunately he's been wrong a little too much.

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02-05-2010, 11:14 AM
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mullichicken25
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Why is it a sin for a Ranger to actually hit someone? Rozy tried to stick check Ovechkin for what seemed like an eternity on the goal with 8 seconds to go in the 2nd. All he had to do was step up and push him in his chest and no goal. Instead they blow the 2 goal lead and ultimately the game. He really does suck.
cause it was that easy

we're talking about hitting someone who is often regaurded as the best palyer in the world, one on one, in open ice...good luck with that

rosi did everything that could be asked of him and henrik shat the bed


edit: after reading more posts about how he should have "just bumped him off the puck" i feel i should mention that AO is a complete animal and "bumping off the puck" is no easy feat. If Rosi tried to hit him theres a good chance the play ends with rosi on his ass and ovie scoring a pretty goal rather than the garbage one Henrik gave up

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02-05-2010, 11:30 AM
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yeah guys, like its so easy to bump a 230 lb best player in the world off the puck. lundqvist looked of the whole game last night. he was fighting the puck and often had no idea where the puck was.

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02-05-2010, 01:37 PM
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Not only does no one really use a defense where they shadow a player with another player, but who on this team is actually good enough to shadow someone like Ovechkin?

Exactly.

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02-05-2010, 03:40 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
OK...have you not noticed that Ovechkin is faster and stronger than anyone on this team? And have you not noticed that he has absolutely no problem shooting the puck through our players?

But fine, suppose we "shadow" Ovechkin.

3 things are still going to happen:
1. We'll take penalties left and right because Ovechkin is impossible to stop with legal measures
2. He'll still score because he's the best player in the league
3. The other 4 players on the ice will pick us a part because they aren't a 1 man team.
what you are arguing makes sense in some categories but not in all. Jan erixon was not nearly as fast or as big and obviously not as good as super Mario, yet he could get the job done. again this was back when clutching and holding and obstruction ran rampant, but just because someone is a better player does not mean they couldn't be stopped.

No one is talking about shutting him down completely, maybe containing him would be a better choice of words. If you think that callahan couldn't at least keep up with him, you are wrong.

As for the one man team, i didn't say it guarantees a win, the caps have other players who can score and usually score against us, but by containing AO, you are forcing other players who are not half the player that he is to come up big, backstrom, green, and Semin are all good players, but AO is on a different level

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02-05-2010, 03:43 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
Not only does no one really use a defense where they shadow a player with another player, but who on this team is actually good enough to shadow someone like Ovechkin?

Exactly.
As i stated in the first post, no one tries it anymore and I was asking why? you don't think callahan can follow AO around all game and bother him, his team may not pass to him as much since he will have someone draped on him, and he may get frustrated...

Exactly.

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02-05-2010, 03:54 PM
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mullichicken25
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Originally Posted by XthedoodX View Post
As i stated in the first post, no one tries it anymore and I was asking why? you don't think callahan can follow AO around all game and bother him, his team may not pass to him as much since he will have someone draped on him, and he may get frustrated...

Exactly.
correct, i dont think he can

nor do i feel like his team wouldnt pass to him

you dont bother to shadow a player of that calibur because it simplly wont work and your stuck with a line thats out there for an absurd amount of minutes only trying to keep AO from scoring (which he'll do anyway) and that cuts into the time that gaborik's on the ice trying to make up the difference in goals

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02-05-2010, 04:04 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
correct, i dont think he can

nor do i feel like his team wouldnt pass to him

you dont bother to shadow a player of that calibur because it simplly wont work and your stuck with a line thats out there for an absurd amount of minutes only trying to keep AO from scoring (which he'll do anyway) and that cuts into the time that gaborik's on the ice trying to make up the difference in goals
well that is your opinion, you are entitled to it. I think he can defintely keep up with him.

I also think the caps when then force passes which would lead to turnovers, which works for me.

It simply won't work? based on what? we haven't tried it, no one has in years. It worked on Mario, and plenty of teams in the 80's and 90's would shadow players, the game is different, but whats the harm in trying. No one said it had to be an entire line, you have someone follow him around, when AO jumps on, Cally jumps on, just like staal and rozy jump on, however, cally goes wherever AO goes. As for cutting into his ice-time, not necessarily, you can switch gabby to the other wing to get him extra time, he will still get his power play time.

Point is nothing torts is doing is working, we were up 5-3 and still lost. Something else could and should be tried, but nothing ever will.

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