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Do we really have the best D in the atlantic?

View Poll Results: Which team has the best defense pairings in the atlantic division?
Philly 56 80.00%
NJ 10 14.29%
Pitt 3 4.29%
Rags 1 1.43%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-06-2010, 08:21 PM
  #26
Jester
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
a) they haven't won anything of significance yet
b) he was probably talking about Lindros's Flyers
Yep.

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02-06-2010, 11:33 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yep.
how about crosby malkin kunitz? or zetterberg datsyuk franzen? 2 cups right there.

richards carter... hartnell?
richards carter... giroux?

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02-07-2010, 01:34 AM
  #28
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hahahah flyers are fycked this year, we got no talent/skill if i wasnt drunk id be crying not laughin!!!

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02-07-2010, 01:55 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
how about crosby malkin kunitz? or zetterberg datsyuk franzen? 2 cups right there.

richards carter... hartnell?
richards carter... giroux?
How about...few years of being absolutely pitiful....and butt ass lucky in the draft.

...and Kunitz? Really. I would have gone with Staal or MAF.

Get back to me when you come up with a plan to do better than a Selke finalist and the 2nd leading goal scorer in the league last year, though.

Look, would it be great if we had generational talent? Abso-effing-lutely. Is what we got half bad? Nope, it's actually pretty good.

In the meantime, lets try not to live up to our "negadelphia" label.

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02-08-2010, 01:18 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
How about...few years of being absolutely pitiful....and butt ass lucky in the draft.

...and Kunitz? Really. I would have gone with Staal or MAF.

Get back to me when you come up with a plan to do better than a Selke finalist and the 2nd leading goal scorer in the league last year, though.

Look, would it be great if we had generational talent? Abso-effing-lutely. Is what we got half bad? Nope, it's actually pretty good.

In the meantime, lets try not to live up to our "negadelphia" label.
fine we should be optomistic, but what we have isnt pretty damn good...
and im not asking for malkin or ovechkin (although i wouldve wanted kovy) but now im asking for someone in the top 30...hardly generational.

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02-08-2010, 01:21 AM
  #31
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Rags fan here, def Philly.

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02-08-2010, 06:17 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
2009: 7 players with 10+ goals

2010: 6 players with 10+ goals. In addition, Pronger, Powe (8), Carcillo (7), Gagne, Betts, and Asham (6) all have an outside chance of scoring 10 goals this season.
10 goal players? The point he was making is that we had 6 legit scorers (30 or more goals). Who cares about 10 goal scorers?
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02-08-2010, 10:29 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
i agree. the flyers are not the offensive powerhouse everyone thinks/thought they were during the ECF run. the flyers are a combination of depth and hot streaks (that unfortunately don't last a long time).
And why would they be? Philly in the recent past has given up:

Umberger (now a 20 plus goals guy)
Knuble (ditto)
Upshall (will pot well over 20 goals this year)
Prospal

Which team can maintain their offensive production after giving up so much?

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02-08-2010, 11:02 AM
  #34
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Yes we do but we sure as hell don't play like it.

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02-08-2010, 11:11 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I wouldn't say our D is the best in the division. We have two great defenders in Pronger and Timonen, a good player in Carle, and the rest are all question marks. That's the reality of it. Coburn starts playing great for stretches at a time and follows it up with whoreanusly terrible play for stretches at a time. The guy has zero consistency in his game. Parent is always hurt, Krajicek is what he is, and Syvret and Bartulis are starting to look overwhelmed.

In terms of defense 1 to 6, I'd have to go with New Jersey, followed by *ugh Pittsburgh and then the Flyers.
The Devils' defense is better than the Flyers? How so?

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02-08-2010, 11:14 AM
  #36
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fine we should be optomistic, but what we have isnt pretty damn good...
Yes, it really is. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the other rosters and point outputs around the league...and not just in a knee-jerk this year way, but in a slightly larger perspective.

Quote:
and im not asking for malkin or ovechkin (although i wouldve wanted kovy) but now im asking for someone in the top 30...hardly generational.
And we have a few guys that have proven capable of doing that...it's a down year (and the team is still one of the better clubs in the league offensively), the panic attack is unwarranted.

As to Kovy...the man has never had a single plus season in his career, and has yet to win a single playoff game in his career. While the latter is not entirely his fault, it's also partially an aspect of he's not the type of player you win anything with.

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02-08-2010, 01:03 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
As to Kovy...the man has never had a single plus season in his career, and has yet to win a single playoff game in his career. While the latter is not entirely his fault, it's also partially an aspect of he's not the type of player you win anything with.
im saving this.

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02-08-2010, 01:07 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
im saving this.
Go ahead.

You should also pay attention to the fact that we had no 1st rd pick to offer, no quality prospects in the AHL, no cap space, and would not have been able to re-sign Kovy. Trading for him would have been an EPIC FAIL.

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02-08-2010, 02:20 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Go ahead.

You should also pay attention to the fact that we had no 1st rd pick to offer, no quality prospects in the AHL, no cap space, and would not have been able to re-sign Kovy. Trading for him would have been an EPIC FAIL.
im just saving that kovy isnt a winner...i agree if we had to give up JVR or giroux for him it wouldnt have been worth it, although the point i am making is that our team isnt great, and our offense is very untalented. we dont need kovy or whatever, but we DO need someone who has real scoring talent, maybe move carter to wing to get him going...whatever it takes, personally i would take any of the following over carter:
brace yourselves, it starts out lofty.
ovi
malkin
crosby
sedins
backstrom
semin
green
gaborik
heatley
stamkos
kopitar
kovy
eric staal
iginla
lecavalier
st louis
thornton
marleau
parise
getzlaf
(bobby ryan)
etc.

bottom line is that carter isnt a top of the league talent guy. we need someone on that list to get ahead in this league.

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Old
02-08-2010, 02:35 PM
  #40
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Jeff Carter 22-25-47
Pavel Datsyuk 15-31-46
Henrik Zetterberg 16-29-45
Mike Richards 22-22-44

And taking Gaborik over Jeff Carter is hilarious. You realize he has yet to play 82 games in his career, right? Immensely talented player...but that contract Sather just gave him was, by far, the dumbest he's given out yet.

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02-08-2010, 03:39 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Jeff Carter 22-25-47
Pavel Datsyuk 15-31-46
Henrik Zetterberg 16-29-45
Mike Richards 22-22-44

And taking Gaborik over Jeff Carter is hilarious. You realize he has yet to play 82 games in his career, right? Immensely talented player...but that contract Sather just gave him was, by far, the dumbest he's given out yet.
way to compare Carter and Richards to slumping superstar players..

how about:
St. Louis 18-45-63
Marleau 38-26-64
Stamkos 32-29-61
Kopitar 26-35-61
etc
etc
etc

Richards and Carter are supposed to be on the same level of Kopitar and Stamkos, but they are not. Stamkos is on a bad, bad team and still scoring at every whim. Kopitar, dare I say, single-handedly turned that team around with his work ethic alone. (Ryan Smyth had a little to do with it too.)

you can flip this anyway you want.. the bottom line is the flyers lack REALLY GOOD players. we were spoiled by that ECF run and we are all starting to realize it.

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02-08-2010, 04:01 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
way to compare Carter and Richards to slumping superstar players..

how about:
St. Louis 18-45-63
Marleau 38-26-64
Stamkos 32-29-61
Kopitar 26-35-61
etc
etc
etc

Richards and Carter are supposed to be on the same level of Kopitar and Stamkos, but they are not. Stamkos is on a bad, bad team and still scoring at every whim. Kopitar, dare I say, single-handedly turned that team around with his work ethic alone. (Ryan Smyth had a little to do with it too.)

you can flip this anyway you want.. the bottom line is the flyers lack REALLY GOOD players. we were spoiled by that ECF run and we are all starting to realize it.
agreed.

carter isnt better than gaborik, if we are really going off of salaries than how much do hartnell gagne and briere hurt us?

also what we need to do is sign someone like hossa (kovalchuk) to a sketchy contract that goes for 12+ years.
pay them cap for first 10 years than 2 mil for last 2-4 years that way the active cap is only 6-8 mil

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02-08-2010, 04:12 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
way to compare Carter and Richards to slumping superstar players..
So Datsyuk and Zetterberg are allowed to have a down year, and Carter and Richards are not?

That's a nice even-handed assessment.

Quote:
Richards and Carter are supposed to be on the same level of Kopitar and Stamkos, but they are not. Stamkos is on a bad, bad team and still scoring at every whim. Kopitar, dare I say, single-handedly turned that team around with his work ethic alone. (Ryan Smyth had a little to do with it too.)
What the hell are you talking about? Stamkos was the no. 1 overall pick and extremely well regarded coming up for a reason...just like Tavares was. Stamkos is absolutely supposed to be better than Richards and Carter if he achieves his talent prospects.

But, by all means, lets tank and go for the no. 1 overall.

Quote:
you can flip this anyway you want.. the bottom line is the flyers lack REALLY GOOD players. we were spoiled by that ECF run and we are all starting to realize it.
Team Canada disagrees with you. Mike Richards is one of the best two-way centers in the league, and an exceptional PKer. Jeff Carter didn't score 46 goals by accident. You bring up Marleau...the man scored 19 goals in '07-'08...Carter is on pace for a low 30s total this year. Chris Pronger is one of the best all-around defensemen in the league. Kimmo Timonen is pretty damn good himself.

Say it with me: Negadelphia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
also what we need to do is sign someone like hossa (kovalchuk) to a sketchy contract that goes for 12+ years.
Absolutely, would love a player like Hossa. Problem is you're equating him to Kovy, and the two aren't anything alike except that they both score goals. Hossa is a very good defensive player, while Kovy watches other folks play D and then picks up loose pucks that come his way.

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pay them cap for first 10 years than 2 mil for last 2-4 years that way the active cap is only 6-8 mil
No, we need to stop giving out salary cap crippling contracts.

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Old
02-08-2010, 09:56 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So Datsyuk and Zetterberg are allowed to have a down year, and Carter and Richards are not?

That's a nice even-handed assessment.



What the hell are you talking about? Stamkos was the no. 1 overall pick and extremely well regarded coming up for a reason...just like Tavares was. Stamkos is absolutely supposed to be better than Richards and Carter if he achieves his talent prospects.

But, by all means, lets tank and go for the no. 1 overall.



Team Canada disagrees with you. Mike Richards is one of the best two-way centers in the league, and an exceptional PKer. Jeff Carter didn't score 46 goals by accident. You bring up Marleau...the man scored 19 goals in '07-'08...Carter is on pace for a low 30s total this year. Chris Pronger is one of the best all-around defensemen in the league. Kimmo Timonen is pretty damn good himself.

Say it with me: Negadelphia.



Absolutely, would love a player like Hossa. Problem is you're equating him to Kovy, and the two aren't anything alike except that they both score goals. Hossa is a very good defensive player, while Kovy watches other folks play D and then picks up loose pucks that come his way.



No, we need to stop giving out salary cap crippling contracts.
the difference between pavel and henrik... they win.

they were both late, late draft picks but don't you consider them on par with stamkos if not better? exactly.

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02-08-2010, 10:39 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
the difference between pavel and henrik... they win.
Datsyuk won at 23 (as a marginal player--he was known as a playoff no show, in fact), and then as a key cog when he was 29. In his first 42 playoff games, he had 3 goals. Zetterberg didn't win his first cup until he was 27.

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they were both late, late draft picks but don't you consider them on par with stamkos if not better? exactly.
They were both late, late draft picks because people did not expect them to be that good. The fact that they are that good, or better, is surprising. You acting like it's some shocking observation that Stamkos is a good goalscorer is...ridiculous. He was the no. 1 overall pick for a reason. If he didn't develop into a very good player that would be a disaster for the TBL organization...just like it'll be a **** if JVR doesn't turn into a very good player.

Stamkos scored 100 goals in 124 OHL games.
Carter scored 123 goals in 236 OHL games.
Richards 115 goals in 233 OHL games.

So, again, if your master plan is tanking the season so we can get into the lottery and draft a player of that talent level...great, I'm not on board.

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02-08-2010, 11:25 PM
  #46
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we arent arguing if carter/richards are on par for their draft number, we are saying we have no offensive superstar...do you dispute that?

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02-09-2010, 12:01 AM
  #47
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we arent arguing if carter/richards are on par for their draft number, we are saying we have no offensive superstar...do you dispute that?
...Jeff Carter was 2nd in the league in goals last year. His 4th NHL season. He should have a VERY good NHL career as far as scoring goals. He has 134 goals in 363 games, or 0.37 goals a game (30 goals in an 82 game season). That pace, in a 16 year NHL career...makes him a 500 goal scorer in the NHL. He has, easily, one of the best shots in the NHL. It hasn't been going in for him this year...and maybe last year was a fluke, but I don't think so. However, the real point is that down years happen. EVERY SINGLE PLAYER that you can list, has had down years.

The argument that "the bottom line is the flyers lack REALLY GOOD players[;]" is a categorically false statement, and the only way one can make it is having an opinion devoid of any attachment to referential understanding of what other players are out there doing.

Lets go through your list.

ovi - generational talent.
malkin - generational talent.
crosby - generational talent.
sedins - (at age 25: Daniel (22-49-71), Henrik (18-57-75), Carter's current pace (33-36-69 oh the horror!
backstrom - fantastic player, but playing with Ovie is friendly to your stats...ask Zubrus.
semin - see above, he's also softer than melted butter.
green - terrible defensively, and unfortunately that's kind of part of his job.
gaborik - injury disaster.
heatley - really...you want this guy?
stamkos - absolutely would love to have him.
kopitar - he's basically no different than Richards, and Carter, you realize that right? He's just over a PPG, and Richards has done this in consecutive seasons.
kovy - Want nothing to do with him.
eric staal - Would love to have him, but since his 100 pt season... < PPG player.
iginla - great player, but in the next 5 years...Jeff Carter will score more goals than Iginla
lecavalier - He has 8 less goals than Carter right now, you know.
st louis - He has 5 less goals than Carter right now.
thornton - I love Thornton, and would take him in a heartbeat...but you're aware he has the "Playoff choke artist" tag, right?
marleau - 674 pts in 929 games is an offensive superstar? This will be the first year in his career he has crossed 40 goals.
parise - love him.
getzlaf - great as well, but lets not act like he's an order of magnitude better than what we have.
(bobby ryan) - Going to be a very good player... 25-20-45 in 58 games.

In short, your reaction to Richards/Carter having a slightly down year is pure knee-jerk...a few of these guys are absolutely better than both, but in most cases it's VERY debatable. And given Richards intangibles, he's absolutely a player you win with over a slew of these guys.

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02-09-2010, 12:17 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...Jeff Carter was 2nd in the league in goals last year. His 4th NHL season. He should have a VERY good NHL career as far as scoring goals. He has 134 goals in 363 games, or 0.37 goals a game (30 goals in an 82 game season). That pace, in a 16 year NHL career...makes him a 500 goal scorer in the NHL. He has, easily, one of the best shots in the NHL. It hasn't been going in for him this year...and maybe last year was a fluke, but I don't think so. However, the real point is that down years happen. EVERY SINGLE PLAYER that you can list, has had down years.

The argument that "the bottom line is the flyers lack REALLY GOOD players[;]" is a categorically false statement, and the only way one can make it is having an opinion devoid of any attachment to referential understanding of what other players are out there doing.

Lets go through your list.

ovi - generational talent.
malkin - generational talent.
crosby - generational talent.
sedins - (at age 25: Daniel (22-49-71), Henrik (18-57-75), Carter's current pace (33-36-69 oh the horror!
backstrom - fantastic player, but playing with Ovie is friendly to your stats...ask Zubrus.
semin - see above, he's also softer than melted butter.
green - terrible defensively, and unfortunately that's kind of part of his job.
gaborik - injury disaster.
heatley - really...you want this guy?
stamkos - absolutely would love to have him.
kopitar - he's basically no different than Richards, and Carter, you realize that right? He's just over a PPG, and Richards has done this in consecutive seasons.
kovy - Want nothing to do with him.
eric staal - Would love to have him, but since his 100 pt season... < PPG player.
iginla - great player, but in the next 5 years...Jeff Carter will score more goals than Iginla
lecavalier - He has 8 less goals than Carter right now, you know.
st louis - He has 5 less goals than Carter right now.
thornton - I love Thornton, and would take him in a heartbeat...but you're aware he has the "Playoff choke artist" tag, right?
marleau - 674 pts in 929 games is an offensive superstar? This will be the first year in his career he has crossed 40 goals.
parise - love him.
getzlaf - great as well, but lets not act like he's an order of magnitude better than what we have.
(bobby ryan) - Going to be a very good player... 25-20-45 in 58 games.

In short, your reaction to Richards/Carter having a slightly down year is pure knee-jerk...a few of these guys are absolutely better than both, but in most cases it's VERY debatable. And given Richards intangibles, he's absolutely a player you win with over a slew of these guys.
I'm on your side. People have a short memory here... It's the same with Cole Hamels on the Phillies. Trade him? GTFO. Our team is fine, just a few bad slumps. Don't go trading Carter

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02-09-2010, 01:00 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...Jeff Carter was 2nd in the league in goals last year. His 4th NHL season. He should have a VERY good NHL career as far as scoring goals. He has 134 goals in 363 games, or 0.37 goals a game (30 goals in an 82 game season). That pace, in a 16 year NHL career...makes him a 500 goal scorer in the NHL. He has, easily, one of the best shots in the NHL. It hasn't been going in for him this year...and maybe last year was a fluke, but I don't think so. However, the real point is that down years happen. EVERY SINGLE PLAYER that you can list, has had down years.

The argument that "the bottom line is the flyers lack REALLY GOOD players[;]" is a categorically false statement, and the only way one can make it is having an opinion devoid of any attachment to referential understanding of what other players are out there doing.

Lets go through your list.

ovi - generational talent.
malkin - generational talent.
crosby - generational talent.
sedins - (at age 25: Daniel (22-49-71), Henrik (18-57-75), Carter's current pace (33-36-69 oh the horror!
backstrom - fantastic player, but playing with Ovie is friendly to your stats...ask Zubrus.
semin - see above, he's also softer than melted butter.
green - terrible defensively, and unfortunately that's kind of part of his job.
gaborik - injury disaster.
heatley - really...you want this guy?
stamkos - absolutely would love to have him.
kopitar - he's basically no different than Richards, and Carter, you realize that right? He's just over a PPG, and Richards has done this in consecutive seasons.
kovy - Want nothing to do with him.
eric staal - Would love to have him, but since his 100 pt season... < PPG player.
iginla - great player, but in the next 5 years...Jeff Carter will score more goals than Iginla
lecavalier - He has 8 less goals than Carter right now, you know.
st louis - He has 5 less goals than Carter right now.
thornton - I love Thornton, and would take him in a heartbeat...but you're aware he has the "Playoff choke artist" tag, right?
marleau - 674 pts in 929 games is an offensive superstar? This will be the first year in his career he has crossed 40 goals.
parise - love him.
getzlaf - great as well, but lets not act like he's an order of magnitude better than what we have.
(bobby ryan) - Going to be a very good player... 25-20-45 in 58 games.

In short, your reaction to Richards/Carter having a slightly down year is pure knee-jerk...a few of these guys are absolutely better than both, but in most cases it's VERY debatable. And given Richards intangibles, he's absolutely a player you win with over a slew of these guys.
carter is lazy and his shot always seems to go wide.

i would bet carter never scores 40 goals on the flyers again.

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02-09-2010, 01:04 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by triqsix View Post
carter is lazy and his shot always seems to go wide.

i would bet carter never scores 40 goals on the flyers again.
Carter keeps putting rubber on net the way he is, and he's almost certainly going to score 40 again...but, more to the point, a guy that puts 30-40 goals on the board with consistency, is a very good player in the NHL.

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