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Old
02-09-2010, 01:17 PM
  #1
chris11inter
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Hemsky

Hello Canes Fans,

I come in peace and just had a thought of an interesting trade proposal and would like your thoughts.

If the Canes were able to get the second overall draft pick (I’m not saying they will, or should, or any of that) in this year’s draft.

Would you be willing to trade that second overall draft pick to the Edmonton Oilers for Ales Hemsky? Hemsky has 2 years remaining on his contract at 4.1 Million per year. A consistent 70 point guy and would look just great next to Erik Stall.

Anyhow- just wondering your thoughts.

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02-09-2010, 01:18 PM
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OrioleWay
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No, sorry.

I still don't get all bash for Hemsky. If he comes here to play with Staal, he will put 70 point easily... good player, great cotract but this won't happen imo.

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02-09-2010, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris11inter View Post
Would you be willing to trade that second overall draft pick to the Edmonton Oilers for Ales Hemsky? Hemsky has 2 years remaining on his contract at 4.1 Million per year. A consistent 70 point guy and would look just great next to Erik Stall.
I'd rather keep the pick and get Tieler Saygan to play with him.

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02-09-2010, 01:41 PM
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Guerzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris11inter View Post
Hello Canes Fans,

I come in peace and just had a thought of an interesting trade proposal and would like your thoughts.

If the Canes were able to get the second overall draft pick (I’m not saying they will, or should, or any of that) in this year’s draft.

Would you be willing to trade that second overall draft pick to the Edmonton Oilers for Ales Hemsky? Hemsky has 2 years remaining on his contract at 4.1 Million per year. A consistent 70 point guy and would look just great next to Erik Stall.

Anyhow- just wondering your thoughts.
Really?

And no, not in a million years would this deal happen. Likely a guaranteed 8 years of Seguin compared to 2 years of Hemsky. Let's do the math.

What about Brind'Amour (1 year remaining at 3.6) for Jordin Ebburlay?


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02-09-2010, 01:41 PM
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Perhaps we could take Dusdyn Pinnir off your hands instead.

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02-09-2010, 01:50 PM
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02-09-2010, 02:00 PM
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can't think of much I'd rather NOT do than trade a 2nd overall pick for Alex Hermsly

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02-09-2010, 02:21 PM
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that deal is a franchise killer in the cap era

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02-09-2010, 06:17 PM
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vwg*
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cmon guyz plz trade are 1st pix so I can has Himski on my wing

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02-09-2010, 08:40 PM
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I'd do it. That Tailor Haal kid has bust written all over him.

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02-09-2010, 08:47 PM
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bleedgreen
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to the op, i think everyone here is overreacting. we dont get high picks very often so we wouldnt trade it for gretzky right now. hemsky for a high first isnt a bad offer at all. 4 million for hemsky is a good price, we pay whitney similar and the kid has a bunch of years left in the tank. the kid we draft is not at all likely to be better than hemsky in reality. he would be a good compliment to staal, i dont think we would ever do it though.

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02-09-2010, 08:52 PM
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i would trade our first for Gretzky if you throw Kurri in

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02-09-2010, 08:58 PM
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bleed... I don't know why you always have to point out how we overvalue our picks and prospects, especially in this situation. I don't think you'll find many people who would trade a top 3 pick for Hemsky.. the dude is good but he's best used as a secondary scoring player. Of course our pick could end up being a bust or worse than Hemsky but he could also be a lot better, that's just the risk you have to take sometimes. Hemsky would look good next to Staal but he is NOT worth a lottery pick especially coming off a season ending injury. He's invisible if he's not producing and is totally one dimensional. Whitney could probably do just as good of a job as Hemsky next to Staal next season, for cheaper even if he's an old UFA.

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02-09-2010, 09:22 PM
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i point it out because we do. on the other end of the coin, im one of the most vocal guys around here about how jr has been awful at asset management of the first round his entire career and have had a hissy fit every time one of our firsts is traded. i dont see you pointing that part out. that actually has been the thing i harp on the most around here over the years. i hated trading jj and ladd, wasnt happy when we traded tanabe and knyanzev, have flamed jr for giving away essentially every pick he has given away and lamented over and over for years that we never build from within.

its just you guys are talking about a guy who is more talented than any player on our team or in our organization, and is more talented than any of the top 10 of this draft - and talking about him like he is warmed over poo. cant remember a player we've ever had that can play like hemsky, so while i wouldnt do the trade i wouldnt tear this guy a new one for offering. he came over here and offered his teams best player.

as for us overrating prospects, i think we overrate mcbain/bowman and now dalpe. i think we underrate chaput and lawson. i dont think mcbain was a steal at all. he was a top defenseman in the ncaa, as any second round pick should be, and he requires time in the minors as he should as well. im hoping he can be a top 4 guy, but i think he will be exceeding actual expectations a bit to do so next year and a more realistic hope for him in the next couple of years is as a bottom pairing guy. bowman has an nhl shot, and thats it so far. so did shane willis and jeff hereema. if i do give our posters a hard time about overrating our prospects its because ive followed every single one of them since the late 80's, and we've had a very small handful actually pan out - many that did were for other teams. when you guys all freak about how the albany river rats have over half a team that can be playing for us next year i just cant help think about how many times ive been down that path with this team and watching fans of the other teams do the same. we'll be lucky if out of all our albany roster this year and next 3 or 4 guys turn out to be players that make it here at all. its possible boychuk wont ever be more than a minor leaguer, sutter is hitting his best right now, mcbain is a 6th dman, dodge out plays all of them, bowman scores 20 goals for three seasons in a row for another team starting two years from now and seguin is more weiss/connolly than stamkos/tavares and we trade him two years before he actually makes it. that might sound like me at my most pessimistic, buts its a for more likely reality than boychuk/bowman flanking staal, mcbain running the pp, sutter better than j staal as a no2 center and whatever draft pick we get lighting it up at his position as well.

for the record, i actually im pumped we have all the youth we have. i have hope. i know it doesnt sound like it but i really do. we havent had this since around 92ish. i wont be "myself" and talk about how that went tho.

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02-09-2010, 09:33 PM
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You just "overvalue" soft, one dimensional wingers, I guess (at least as much as we "overvalue" our prospects and picks). There's more to being a great hockey player than talent. I already I admitted I would like Hemsky on our team, just not at this cost. High picks in the cap era are worth more than ever these days. Saying we wouldn't trade one for Gretzky is a huge over-exaggeration, and although I knew you meant it to be an exaggeration, I don't agree with it. There are plenty of guys not named Ovechkin, Crosby or Malkin that I would trade a high first for right now.. and Hemsky definitely is not one of them.

I think you're confusing our excitement over guys like McBain, Dalpe, etc as us overrating them. EVERY team's fans on HFboards is exactly the same. I have no illusions that these guys will be superstars one day or anything like that. If the right deal came along, I'd move any of our prospects because none of them are the untouchable type.

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02-09-2010, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
its just you guys are talking about a guy who is more talented than any player on our team or in our organization, and is more talented than any of the top 10 of this draft - and talking about him like he is warmed over poo. cant remember a player we've ever had that can play like hemsky, so while i wouldnt do the trade i wouldnt tear this guy a new one for offering. he came over here and offered his teams best player.
:
I would generally agree with this but in the cap era on a small market team it is hard to give up a good talent on an entry level deal(anyone in the top 5) for another great talent who is getting paid 4.5 and 5 million over the next 2 seasons. If economics didnt come into play i would agree that this deal is possible, but it just doesnt reflect the reality of the situation....hence the boardwide mocking

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02-09-2010, 09:46 PM
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If it's a top three pick, no. However, if the pick drifts to 4th or worse, I'd consider it. The top three are Hall, Fowler, and Seguin. By all accounts, it's "everyone else" after that.

Hemsky setting up Staal is EXACTLY what the Canes need for Staal to be at his best (the playmaking winger)...a reasonable contract extension would be the kicker, though. Not just the current two years.

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02-09-2010, 10:21 PM
  #18
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This is a top heavy draft. If we have a top 3 pick, it's a hell no. If we have a top 5 pick it's a no since we need Gormley or Gudbranson more then Hemsky. Anything outside the top 5 and I would consider it.

As for overrating our prospects, I don't see it to quite the same extent that Bleed does, but then again possibly it's because I see the way other teams fanbases talk about their prospects. Right now we have arguably one of the top 5 teams in the AHL when they're at full strength. I know they're behind a few others in the standings but the only ones I'd but them behind for certain are Hershey (who I do think they can beat in a playoff series), Worcester, Manchester and Hamilton. And unlike a lot of teams that are typically good in the AHL (Chicago) we have a very young team down there right now.

I will say we overrate Bowman, I don't think we overrate Boychuk. In a Ennis vs Boychuk comparison on the prospects board a little while back even most Canes fans were saying Ennis was the better player. I think we have him slotted right where he should be, as a future top 6 winger. Dalpe I think is being overrated a bit right now to an extent. It seems that as soon as Chip said there was a chance he could be in the NHL next year his stock took off in a big way. He's a great prospect but he's not ready.

I do agree that we vastly underrate Chaput, Lawson and to a lesser extent Dodge. Lawson in particular has been named the CCHA best defenseman and is set to do it again this year. Yet he's not even close to the most hyped prospect on his own blueline, in fact most people write him off regularly. Lawson may be our 2nd or 3rd best defenseman prospect right now behind McBain, and that includes Carson.

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02-09-2010, 10:43 PM
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Guerzy
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I just got a kick out of him wanting Erik Stall, that's all.

As for the proposal itself, it is bad for the Carolina Hurricanes, really bad. You see young talent coming through the ranks like Duchene, P. Kane, Tavares, Toews, Stamkos, etc the last few years and Seguin has the potential to be there in that company in the not so distant future. I really believe Seguin (Likely going 2nd in the draft so he's my example.) has the tools to be in that mix in the next couple years. I could see him somewhere between a Duchene & Stamkos, for instance.

I love holding onto our draft picks/prospects as much as the next guy, it's how you truly build a team especially in a salary cap world. You build from within. I am a firm believer in that. With that said, dealing picks or prospects has a time and place, but to me it surely to hell isn't for Hemsky. If our pick is outside the top 5 but in the top 10, then i'd consider a Hemsky deal for our 1st, but to let a top end rated talent in the draft walk away for 2 years of Hemsky and possibly no more, I don't want to take that chance. To chance it and let go a potential top end talent such as Seguin (The potential no. 2 pick here), who I believe may end up in the same mold as Duchene/Stamkos, and trade him away for Hemsky is just plain dumb for this franchise at this current time. Given the stage we're at and where we're headed, a potential 2 years maximum of Hemsky before he is a UFA is not worth the chance of what's likely to be a guaranteed 7 years of Seguin. Which is why I believe this deal is a bad one. Sure Hemsky is a better talent today, possibly will be down the road to, nobody knows. Although Hemsky always, always leaves you wanting more. But i'd take my chances at Seguin before I deal the pick that will likely land him for 2 years of Hemsky and possibly no more. If Hemsky walks in 2 years what do we have? Nothing. Which is useless because in 2 years this team should be in contending mode again. (If things go and are done correctly, of course.) But the Oilers would be happy because they have what's likely a guaranteed 5 more years left of Seguin before he sniffs UFA but we're left empty handed when we're ready to contend. Awesome deal.

That's why I believe this proposed deal is not good. Maybe it is for another teams high 1st rounder given their own situation and direction, whatever it may be. But if we do hold the 2nd overall pick, there's not a snowballs chance in hell do I want it dealt for Hemsky.


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02-09-2010, 11:02 PM
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Exactly, if our draft pick can come in right away or 1-2 years and be anything like some of the top 3 picks of the last few drafts, they are easily worth more than Hemsky who will be a UFA in 2 years.

The draft is always risky but trading a lottery pick for Hemsky is just as risky, if not more.

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02-10-2010, 02:46 AM
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i guess my point is, when did i say we overvalue our prospects to any extreme? was it somewhere else or just my original post? i think we do, and i think everyone does - but im not really tearing us up on it. im tearing us up for underrating hemsky a bit, but more because another teams fan came over and offered their best player, a legit one, and you guys treated him like he offered dubinsky an rosie. thats all my original post said. i dont think bowman/mcbain are busts by any stretch, and apparently itll come as a surprise that i have high hopes for them and im rooting for them - im just saying some people have these guys inked in for roles in our near future and i think THAT is overrating them a bit. boychuk will be given every chance next year, and guys like dwyer and the ilk will be given chances in the bottom 6 to improve our youth and speed. overall though, id be surprised if jr left a top 6 role to a bowman or even boychuk might have it tough to be honest - and he said tlusty is expected to get a job. jr isnt a kid guy, no matter how many we have and neither is mo. it will be interesting to see how they deal with this....or "deal" with this.

i agree absolutely that fans need the top 3 pick, and they would identify with him, and that he would be an instant fan fave. thats a good thing and it would overrule the desire to get staal a prime suspect for the job of playmaking winger. hemsky would likely be better for actual team success in the short term, and maybe long term. i dont think anything outside of the top 3 would get hemsky so its not really worth the discussion past that.

as for the hemsky being a soft winger and us not needing that. we've ALWAYS had soft wingers, and still have whitney/sammy right now playing key roles - hemsky would be the best "soft" winger we've had - and would reduce the need to bring in any others. you do "need" them, you just dont need a team full of them. one right one would do, and hemsky is that, and for a soft guy he takes a beating and still keeps coming.

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02-10-2010, 05:30 AM
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All talks for overrated/ underrated are useless, imo. We don't have overrated prospects. Guys like Bowman and Dalpe just get more attention than Terry, Chaput, M. Jordan and Lawson. I'm not sure this make them overrated, sorry. I like some of the Jimmy picks in last few years. The problem here is... personally i'm not a sure this team know how to develop prospects and how to be patient with them... Ladd is example. I have a feeling there's a big chance guys like Terry, Jordan, Chaput, Samson, Lindstrom, Dodge to not play so long here or even to not play game for Canes. I like this kid so much. I'm not a sure they can be core guys but i just want to see them get some chances. I hope JR will get them this chance.

I just hope the culture change in Carolina and to see every of this kid, not another 35 years old useless pylons. Overrated or not, i see Boychuk as a future top 6 winger. Be patient, people. We talk for kid, not for machine. Dalpe has a top 6 future too. That was steal for Jimmy. McBain has a top 4 potential, not close.

Boychuk, Dalpe and McBain are future. They're kids who can join this team core. Guys like Lawson, Chaput, Terry, Bowman, Samson, Lindstrom, Bellemore, Dodge, Jordan - support guys in my eyes. But you need support too. I'd love to see this team going far with kids we get in draft. Always is so nice to see team build from draft picks.. Devils is example.

Lawson can suprise people in training camp imo. He's ready for next level.


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02-10-2010, 09:54 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caniacho View Post
All talks for overrated/ underrated are useless, imo. We don't have overrated prospects. Guys like Bowman and Dalpe just get more attention than Terry, Chaput, M. Jordan and Lawson. I'm not sure this make them overrated, sorry. I like some of the Jimmy picks in last few years. The problem here is... personally i'm not a sure this team know how to develop prospects and how to be patient with them... Ladd is example. I have a feeling there's a big chance guys like Terry, Jordan, Chaput, Samson, Lindstrom, Dodge to not play so long here or even to not play game for Canes. I like this kid so much. I'm not a sure they can be core guys but i just want to see them get some chances. I hope JR will get them this chance.

I just hope the culture change in Carolina and to see every of this kid, not another 35 years old useless pylons. Overrated or not, i see Boychuk as a future top 6 winger. Be patient, people. We talk for kid, not for machine. Dalpe has a top 6 future too. That was steal for Jimmy. McBain has a top 4 potential, not close.

Boychuk, Dalpe and McBain are future. They're kids who can join this team core. Guys like Lawson, Chaput, Terry, Bowman, Samson, Lindstrom, Bellemore, Dodge, Jordan - support guys in my eyes. But you need support too. I'd love to see this team going far with kids we get in draft. Always is so nice to see team build from draft picks.. Devils is example.

Lawson can suprise people in training camp imo. He's ready for next level.
...I feel the key here is that Terry, Jordan, and Dodge are consistently overlooked...perhaps even underrated (Terry especially). When we drafted Jordan, word was that Detroit's "diamond in the rough" drafting cabal had him in their sights and we stole him from them. Chris Terry has played every game this year for the Rats (like Chaput and Dodge) and is 4th on the team in scoring....sure we underrate...or more appropriately overlook some solid guys...but in the era of the salary cap EVERY player in our minor league system is an ASSET. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trading a 20 year old prospect for a 24 or 25 year old NHLer. Salary becomes the deciding factor. With a system that continues to get stacked with more and better prospects, we have an opportunity to use asset management to bring our team up to playoff quality quicker, without ending up with the proverbial "bare cupboard".

So I don't mind the undervaluing or overlooking of players....we may indeed see Bowman get traded at some point in time and he may shine for somebody else (hope this doesn't happen)....but hopefully it brings us a deal/player that gets us competitive quicker, a deadline deal that carries us over the hump. That's what happened in 05-06 (but we had fewer "hidden gems" in our system to compensate).

I'm calling it here...Jordan will be a solid puck-moving d-man on the big club. Terry will be a solid 3rd liner. And Dodge will center our 4th line someday....if that happens, then we will be a cup contender again, because the supporting cast will be significantly better than we've had in a long time.

.....and by the way, nobody is overvaluing Dalpe....he's a stud and he's that good!

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02-10-2010, 10:55 AM
  #24
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Dalpe is a very interesting story. Looking at the big picture today, he may be getting overrated to a degree based on recent comments of him possibly being on next years team. However, Dalpe has been underrated since the beginning. He was too small (5'8 120lbs the year or so before he was drafted), if my memory is correct he was cut from a junior team because of his size and his game just wasn't where it needed to be at that point, he developed quickly and jumped into the spotlight after a real good season in the BCHL, he was rated quite high by many scouting services yet fell into our lap 45th overall, 2nd round. Our scouting staff was amazed, thrilled and surprised Dalpe fell to where he did, giving us the opportunity to draft him.


Here are the rankings heading into the 2008 draft for Dalpe. Would it have been a surprise if he did go late 1st round based on projections? Yes, in a way, but no in another.


TSN: 32
CSB: 16 NAS
ISS: 20
RLR: 27
McK: 26
THN: 29

Quote:
Comparable: Travis Zajac

From TSN: A late bloomer who left his home in Ontario to play in the B.C. Jr. A League, Dalpe showed enough to merit some first-round consideration. Best quality is his shot but some think he is mis-cast as a centre and plays better as a hard-shooting winger.

From NHL Central Scouting: He has a really quick release on his shot, he is a very busy player and he plays with a lot of energy out there. He is a player that is constantly in motion. He is offensive minded, but plays well defensively too and has made huge improvements from last year – he developed out of nowhere and had a really good year in the BCHL.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?fid=11475



Since those rankings, he fell further in the draft than projected, chose to go play NCAA and has developed very nicely to date. I'm not sure if Dalpe is underrated or overrated at this point. Everything to date regarding him has been a surprise and kind of leaves you wondering why? Wondering what's next and just downright leaving you wanting more, in a good way. It's like reading a book and wanting to go right to the end to see how it unfolds. Whether it was the surprise of him getting cut from a junior team, filling out and growing quickly, jumping up the scouting ranks quickly yet falling in the draft, having a great rookie year in NCAA followed by what is another great year to date, being recognized as a kid who may be on our roster as early as next season, etc. The kid is one big surprise and all I can do now is hope the next surprise in line is making a splash in the AHL/NHL. At this point, it seems hard to bet against the kid. As of right now, there isn't much saying this kid isn't a diamond in the rough. The next step for Dalpe is proving he can do it in the big leagues, whether it be AHL or NHL. But, that goes with being a prosect whether you're Stamkos heading into the NHL, Tavares, Hall, etc. They've all got the world to prove. So far with Dalpe, he's proving all critics wrong. To say Dalpe will likely be in the NHL next year? Who knows. I guess at this point all I can say is I wouldn't be surprised if he was.


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