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Old
01-16-2005, 11:15 PM
  #151
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Eh, you're probably right. I'm always getting the pairings mixed up. But really, do you see Koltsov getting time on the #1 pp? I could see him maybe getting some time in call-up duty on the second until just to see what he can do, but the first unit is pushing it.

Here's to hoping he winds up better than Tom Poti.

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01-16-2005, 11:20 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
I havent seen him play. That means little to nothing however, because people who have seen him play say he is absolutely, unbeliveable horrible defensively.
If I haven't watched Jagr or Yashin play, and based my judgement on the opinions of others, I'd think they'd be two soft punks who wouldn't be able to take a hit on the NHL surface. You can tell me every opinion people have on players like Bure, but at the end all you can draw your post on is text from other people's keyboards. By listening to others, you wouldn't really know how solid Lidstrom is since he doesn't make big hits nor does he make coast-to-coast rushes. You wouldn't know how good Hasek as others would tell you he makes ugly unorthodox saves. Watch Koltsov play. He isn't a great solid defenseman but his offensive ability is definitely electrifying and if all you can say about him is regurgitating others' posts, then it is a sub-par opinion.


One of my favorite quotes from a movie. This is from Good Will Hunting:
So if I asked you about art, you'd probably give me the skinny on every art book ever written. Michelangelo, you know a lot about him. Life's work, political aspirations, him and the pope, sexual orientations, the whole works, right? But I'll bet you can't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never actually stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling; seen that. If I ask you about women, you'd probably give me a syllabus about your personal favorites. You may have even been laid a few times. But you can't tell me what it feels like to wake up next to a woman and feel truly happy. You're a tough kid. And I'd ask you about war, you'd probably throw Shakespeare at me, right, "once more unto the breach dear friends." But you've never been near one. You've never held your best friend's head in your lap, watch him gasp his last breath looking to you for help. I'd ask you about love, you'd probably quote me a sonnet. But you've never looked at a woman and been totally vulnerable. Known someone that could level you with her eyes, feeling like God put an angel on earth just for you. Who could rescue you from the depths of hell. And you wouldn't know what it's like to be her angel, to have that love for her, be there forever, through anything, through cancer. And you wouldn't know about sleeping sitting up in the hospital room for two months, holding her hand, because the doctors could see in your eyes, that the terms "visiting hours" don't apply to you. You don't know about real loss, 'cause it only occurs when you've loved something more than you love yourself. And I doubt you've ever dared to love anybody that much.

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01-17-2005, 01:17 AM
  #153
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what kind of offensive numbers do you guys think kesler will put up in the nhl in his prime?

 
Old
01-17-2005, 01:48 AM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKarateMonkey
what kind of offensive numbers do you guys think kesler will put up in the nhl in his prime?
He is guarenteed to score 15 goals and 35 based on his speed and skills (AHL this year proves this imo) in the NHL as a 3rd line center. Perhaps a 4th liner on a really good team but he has the size, the speed, the skills and the two-way game to be a 3rd liner.

However, if Morrison or Sedin is traded, he may be able to score 25 goals and 55 points as a 2nd liner who will hit, play defense and shut-down other teams.

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01-17-2005, 09:24 AM
  #155
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thinking about Kelser and his offensive potential reminds me a lot about Peca in the mid 90s, before he cracked the lineup fulltime (which was in Buffalo, as he was traded by the canucks before becoming a regular).

Most people at the time thought he'd make a decent 3rd liner, could hit, brought lots of intensity but didn't have much of an offensive touch... his leadership at the time was never considered as, like Kesler, he was a young player.

He's turned into a solid player now, and even when he doesn't score he usually brings a lot of other intangibles to the table.

not saying that Kesler will turn into another Peca - even at comparable ages, Peca was still more aggressive... but Kesler has better hands and is a more complete 2-way player at the same age as Peca.

Kesler definitely has upside... like Peca he's the type of player that probably is best suited for a 3rd line role, but I also think that like Peca, he will turn into a player that can play the 2nd line effectively.

On the canucks I'd love to see him be a lock for the 3rd line on this team... that's where we need him most... someone who can anchor the PK (which will become a huge need for us as Linden gets older), and play a shutdown role with a guy like Cooke on the 3rd unit... if Chubarov also continues to develop as he has, moving Kesler to the right wing (where he played in some games) might also work out well, with a 3rd line of Cooke-Chubarov-Kesler being the team's top defensive line.

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01-17-2005, 03:21 PM
  #156
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^Peca is a very good comparison in hindsight. As you said, Peca was more aggressive with his physical game, while Kesler's game is more well-rounded(at this age in their careers).

If Kesler could turn out to be anything like Peca(which is possible) I'd be escastic(sp?)

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01-17-2005, 03:24 PM
  #157
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Amazing, the longer this thread goes on the better that Kesler gets.

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01-17-2005, 03:32 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
If I haven't watched Jagr or Yashin play, and based my judgement on the opinions of others, I'd think they'd be two soft punks who wouldn't be able to take a hit on the NHL surface. You can tell me every opinion people have on players like Bure, but at the end all you can draw your post on is text from other people's keyboards. By listening to others, you wouldn't really know how solid Lidstrom is since he doesn't make big hits nor does he make coast-to-coast rushes. You wouldn't know how good Hasek as others would tell you he makes ugly unorthodox saves. Watch Koltsov play. He isn't a great solid defenseman but his offensive ability is definitely electrifying and if all you can say about him is regurgitating others' posts, then it is a sub-par opinion.
More bad comparisons. Surely you wouldnt ONLY hear how Jagr/Yashin are soft punks or couldnt take a hit. You'd know how good Lidstrom is because he wins the Norris repeatedly(another bad comparison). You'd know how good Hasek is because he's won 6 Vezinas(yet another terrible comparison).

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01-17-2005, 06:04 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
He is guarenteed to score 15 goals and 35 based on his speed and skills (AHL this year proves this imo) in the NHL as a 3rd line center. Perhaps a 4th liner on a really good team but he has the size, the speed, the skills and the two-way game to be a 3rd liner.

However, if Morrison or Sedin is traded, he may be able to score 25 goals and 55 points as a 2nd liner who will hit, play defense and shut-down other teams.
whoa, careful there, you dont want Chaos to come in here trouting kesler as a HHOFer now! (this is in reference to the lehtinen thread in the nhl board)(Chaos, this is just a joke, dont take it personally, i dont follow you around to start fights)
personally i see kesler top off at 45-50 pts in todays nhl. its just too tight defensively, even henrik sedin have yet to reach 50 pts in a season.

 
Old
01-17-2005, 09:31 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperKarateMonkey
whoa, careful there, you dont want Chaos to come in here trouting kesler as a HHOFer now! (this is in reference to the lehtinen thread in the nhl board)(Chaos, this is just a joke, dont take it personally, i dont follow you around to start fights)
personally i see kesler top off at 45-50 pts in todays nhl. its just too tight defensively, even henrik sedin have yet to reach 50 pts in a season.
His points production is absolutely arguable but I definitely thinks he has the ability to score 25 goals a season at least once or twice in his career.

I compare him to John Madden, a speedy two-way player and Madden averages around 20 goals every season and even chipped in 23 in his highest. Kesler is a bigger stronger version of Madden but who has outscored Madden in the NCAA and the AHL (on pace to outscore at least).

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01-20-2005, 12:16 PM
  #161
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What a classic thread.

It's amazing how AHL offence makes some players sure bets, but is suddenly meaningless when discussing certain other players.

Enough bias from Nuckfan in this thread to sink an aircraft carrier, too...Koltsov better than Colaiacovo, LOL...

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01-20-2005, 12:29 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese


What a classic thread.

It's amazing how AHL offence makes some players sure bets, but is suddenly meaningless when discussing certain other players.

Enough bias from Nuckfan in this thread to sink an aircraft carrier, too...Koltsov better than Colaiacovo, LOL...
which Nuckfan are you referring to? cause that's not something I said.

however you want to slice it, Kesler is having a great season, while playing a the top defensive role, being one of the youngest players in the league.

As a canuck fan, I don't see how you couldn't be excited about that?? why are Leaf fans so excited about Colaiacovo?? has he accomplished anything more at the same age as Kesler has?? what about Steen? these guys get put on a pedistal by Leaf fans, and yet Canuck fans show homerism because we are excited about Kesler??

Kesler has improved tremendously since being drafted... at draft time he was rated (I believe) as the 17th NA prospect, expected to go slightly lower in the draft then he did... he fell a bit and the canucks took him... since then he made the canucks team as an 18 YO rookie... went to the AHL as a 19 YO (thanks to a loophole in the rules that allows NCAA players to go at 19, but junior players can't play until 20), making him one of the youngest players in the league last year... this season, still one of the youngest players in the league - while the entire AHL has bulked up with players that would otherwise be in the NHL this year - Kesler has consistently been one of his team's best players night in and night out (if not their best overall) - playing a key role in the team's success - with the Moose one of the top teams in the league...

and all this as a 20 YO!!!

I think that getting excited about such a player is natural, and if you want to call it homerism, talk to the Leaf fans first about why exactly Colaiacovo or Steen are held in such high regard, while not proving anything more than Kesler has at the same age!

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01-20-2005, 12:50 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
As a canuck fan, I don't see how you couldn't be excited about that?? why are Leaf fans so excited about Colaiacovo?? has he accomplished anything more at the same age as Kesler has?? what about Steen? these guys get put on a pedistal by Leaf fans, and yet Canuck fans show homerism because we are excited about Kesler??

I think that getting excited about such a player is natural, and if you want to call it homerism, talk to the Leaf fans first about why exactly Colaiacovo or Steen are held in such high regard, while not proving anything more than Kesler has at the same age!
That's the exact question I'm asking you about AHL performance.

Why is Wellwood brushed off for putting up better AHL numbers than Kesler, while Kesler is considered great?

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01-20-2005, 01:36 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
That's the exact question I'm asking you about AHL performance.

Why is Wellwood brushed off for putting up better AHL numbers than Kesler, while Kesler is considered great?
I haven't seen Nuckfan brush off Wellwood's performance. Personally I haven't seen Wellwood's performance, nor those of Steen's or Colaiaccovo's(sp?)(at least since the WJC). However, Canuck fans are excited about how well Kesler is playing; he's doing better than expected at a level that is considered second only to the NHL, and he's earning rave reviews from his teammates, his coaches, and his managers.

Canuck fans have reason to be excited about Kesler, because he has improved very nicely since the day he was drafted. I admit, he was not No. 1 on my shortlist of guys I hoped the Canucks would draft, but I'm very happy we got him now. And yes, I know solid AHL numbers don't always transmit to the NHL, but he's already shown he has the savvy and overall game to be in the NHL.

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01-20-2005, 02:04 PM
  #165
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I haven't once commented on Wellwood...

And I'm not here comparing Kesler to Wellwood, or Steen or Colaiacovo as prospects.... all I'm saying is that canuck fans are totally justified to be excited about this prospect.

as canucklehead said, Kesler is putting up points now, while the rest of his game was never in question. He was drafted as a sure bet to make the NHL because he's got all the tools to play a 3rd/4th line role already - he's mature beyond his years, he's solid defensively, good on faceoffs, knows how to play a team system well, and plays good 2-way hockey... this was never questioned with Kesler.

And this is also a reason why many canuck fans - including myself - were not happy with this pick. We all thought that he was just another example of a Nathan Smith type pick - a guy that has all the tools to be in the NHL, but wouldn't be an impact player... Kesler so far is proving that just isn't true - he wasn't expected to play the role he is already as a 20 yr old - and forget the points he's putting up, he just wasn't expected to learn the AHL game so quickly and play the level of 2-way hockey he is... the points are just a huge bonus with him, proving that he has offensive skills where most fans thought he had none.

Again I'm not comparing him to Wellwood, or Steen, or Colaiacovo... but if we were - then seriously, answer this question for me - What had Steen or Colaiacovo accomplished at the age of 20 that puts them in a different league than Kesler? I'm not saying that you think they are in a different league, but it's painfully obvious that Leaf fans hold Steen and Colaiacovo in very high standards, assuming they are sure bets to be a top line forward and a top 4 dman in the NHL, and are already NHL ready.... so a year after these two guys were drafted, there was already a lot being said about these two - and Leaf fans still consider them elite prospects - so my question is why should Kesler not be considered one, if you can consider Colaiacovo and Steen in that category??

maybe it's just me, but if you take away all the hype around all 3 prospects, I just don't see what separates them so much?? Personally I'd rather take Kesler over the other two, because of what he's already doing at the age he's at, and the canucks need for a strong 2-way player that can impact the game.... but either way it's all subjective, with Leaf fans I'm sure rather wanting to take the other 2 over Kesler... still there seems to be such a huge gap between them in opinion - where the Leaf prospects are considered elite, while Kesler is decent, but not close to their level... why is that?? I don't see anything in their development, their draft positioning, their play so far, even if we don't consider age (which Kesler has the advantage in), to suggest that these guys are at different levels?

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01-20-2005, 02:16 PM
  #166
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Wow.

1) I never attributed any particular remark to "nuckfan in TO". I said Nuckfan like habfan or wingfan.

2) I never said that Kesler wasn't any good, nor did I ever make any comment on his future

3) I never said that Canuck fans shouldn't like Kesler

4) I never said that Cola and/or Steen is a better prospect/player than Kesler

My sole point was that Wellwood's AHL production was pooh-poohed because "AHL scoring doesn't mean anything", but this doesn't seem to be the case for Kesler. In Kesler's case, it means he's great.

That's all.

Understand now? I apologize for any confusion.

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01-20-2005, 02:43 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Wow.

1) I never attributed any particular remark to "nuckfan in TO". I said Nuckfan like habfan or wingfan.
sorry then... please refer to canuck fans, as well canuck fans... I am still the original Nuckfan on these boards!

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01-20-2005, 03:00 PM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO

maybe it's just me, but if you take away all the hype around all 3 prospects, I just don't see what separates them so much?? Personally I'd rather take Kesler over the other two, because of what he's already doing at the age he's at, and the canucks need for a strong 2-way player that can impact the game.... but either way it's all subjective, with Leaf fans I'm sure rather wanting to take the other 2 over Kesler... still there seems to be such a huge gap between them in opinion - where the Leaf prospects are considered elite, while Kesler is decent, but not close to their level... why is that?? I don't see anything in their development, their draft positioning, their play so far, even if we don't consider age (which Kesler has the advantage in), to suggest that these guys are at different levels?
Steen is more difficult to quantify because he is playing in a league that is a lot different from the AHL.

Colaiacovo has been the number one defenceman on a young AHL team and is the man, no question about it. Kesler is playing on a more veteran team and although some people discount that it makes what he has to do a lot easier.

Other than that, let's see what happens in the NHL.

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01-20-2005, 03:11 PM
  #169
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I think the main reason people question Wellwood's AHL production is that he is undersized and not a great skater (though not as bad as some claim). Kesler on the other hand is big, strong and an elite skater so his game should translate better to the NHL. If both make the NHL I think it's quite likely Wellwood will be the better offensive player because that is what will get him there. However, Kesler is going to be an NHL player guaranteed and what Canucks fans are excited about is that it may not be in a purely defensive role as some have tried to tell us previously.

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01-20-2005, 03:15 PM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Wow.

1) I never attributed any particular remark to "nuckfan in TO". I said Nuckfan like habfan or wingfan.

2) I never said that Kesler wasn't any good, nor did I ever make any comment on his future

3) I never said that Canuck fans shouldn't like Kesler

4) I never said that Cola and/or Steen is a better prospect/player than Kesler

My sole point was that Wellwood's AHL production was pooh-poohed because "AHL scoring doesn't mean anything", but this doesn't seem to be the case for Kesler. In Kesler's case, it means he's great.

That's all.

Understand now? I apologize for any confusion.
Wellwood and Kesler are about the two worst players you could choose to compare. Completely different in all facets of the game, in fact almost opposites. Wellwood has better hands, Kesler is a better skater and is way bigger, in addition Kesler is a two-way centre. I don't even think you can really compare them. People are excited about Kesler's production because a lot of people thought he wouldn't have any, Wellwood is a scorer plain and simple, if he isn't scoring he isn't playing hockey.

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01-20-2005, 04:06 PM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Steen is more difficult to quantify because he is playing in a league that is a lot different from the AHL.

Colaiacovo has been the number one defenceman on a young AHL team and is the man, no question about it. Kesler is playing on a more veteran team and although some people discount that it makes what he has to do a lot easier.

Other than that, let's see what happens in the NHL.
I agree with some of your points there... it's hard to quantify Steen's performance, compared to Kesler's, because they play in different leagues.... still they have to be at least comparable as prospects overall...

Steen's shown he has top 6 potential with his play... he hasn't exactly been good defensively, but has shown decent hands... IMO he's a solid prospect - not a top tier one like Horton, Zherdev, etc... but a decent enough prospect that he should be an NHLer one day as an offensive player. What he turns into though is anyone's guess... could be a decent or even good top liner, or an average 2nd liner...

Kesler IMO has similar potential - in a different role.. he's not an elite prospect IMO (who I would reserve for only the top prospects like Horton, Ovechkin, Malkin, etc), but in the same category as solid 2nd tier ones like Steen... I think he could be a solid 2nd liner or at worst a good 3rd liner (he's already an average NHL 3rd liner at this stage). They aren't good players to compare as they play different roles, and have different tool-sets, but in terms of impact, I think they have a similar potential... and while Steen definitely has more top line potential, Kesler has intangibles already in his game which Steen can't match, which makes Kesler a prospect who's a sure-bet to make the NHL.

But comparing them 1-on-1 otherwise makes no sense... it's like comparing Satan or Palffy to Peca or Primeau... although it's debatable which one of those guys would be more valuable to a team.

As far as the whole veteran team argument to diminish Kesler's worth... I don't think the difference is enough to use as a label for a veteran team, versus a young team... The Moose are only slightly younger (by a year) than St. John's... take away Flaherty (36) and that difference is even less.... The baby leafs have some vets as well - they have 4 players that are 28+, the Moose have 3... They have 5 late 70's born (77-79), while the Moose have 8.

The baby Leafs do have more younger players on their roster overall, but the Moose are playing with 5 less roster players as well (27 total listed on the Leafs, vs. 22 on the Moose as listed on hockeydb).

In the end I think both teams have their share of vets, and the overall age difference between the two teams (25 av age for the Moose, vs. 24 for the Leafs) isn't really that big... Kesler also isn't out there centering Messier and Yzerman either... he's usually playing with King (23 YO), Goren (27 YO), or Heerema (25 YO)... these guys aren't exactly AHL vets or dominant players.

although I guess if you want to use that argument to label a player's performance, then we should also consider that Stajan played last year on one of the older, more experienced and veteran teams in the NHL, so maybe his job was a lot easier to do as well, and we should take his success in the NHL last year with a grain of salt??

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