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09-24-2003, 01:29 PM
  #1
DarioinDenver
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Edmonton ice

I know a lot of folks in Edmonton have a lot of pride in their ice and rightfully so. There's a quote in this article I'm sure a lot of you will find... disturbing. Pretty insignificant but I thought some of you would be interested in the read.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/hockey/6839216.htm

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09-24-2003, 01:43 PM
  #2
Slats432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarioinDenver
I know a lot of folks in Edmonton have a lot of pride in their ice and rightfully so. There's a quote in this article I'm sure a lot of you will find... disturbing. Pretty insignificant but I thought some of you would be interested in the read.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/hockey/6839216.htm
Oddly other northern based cities don't have the same...uh..."spit and make good ice." that we do...I guess it must be something else....

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09-24-2003, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarioinDenver
I know a lot of folks in Edmonton have a lot of pride in their ice and rightfully so. There's a quote in this article I'm sure a lot of you will find... disturbing. Pretty insignificant but I thought some of you would be interested in the read.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/hockey/6839216.htm
The disturbing part is maybe Dallas gets good ice. Modano with good ice=bad

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09-24-2003, 02:07 PM
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Hey DarioinDenver,

As quoted from http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/hockey/6839216.htm

"You can spit in Edmonton," Reyna said, "and it'll make good ice."

Hot water makes for ideal ice, so Reyna's job each day is to fill the Zamboni with 160 gallons of water, up to 160 degrees in temperature.

Once the water hits the ice, it freezes. The optimum temperature for hockey ice, 22 degrees.

"With hot water, you have fewer impurities," Reyna explained. "Plus, hot water freezes faster and [such ice] melts slower."


I guess our Edmonton spit has 'fewer impurities' and is '160 degrees' of ice making perfection, whereas Dallas hotwater is lacking. Maybe if she swapped a little spit with our ice making crew your Ice Queen might just melt, warmup a little and become a hockey fan. But then she'd be an Oilers' fan and I that wouldn't be too good I guess!

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09-24-2003, 02:16 PM
  #5
DarioinDenver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OYLer
Hey DarioinDenver,

As quoted from http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/hockey/6839216.htm

"You can spit in Edmonton," Reyna said, "and it'll make good ice."

Hot water makes for ideal ice, so Reyna's job each day is to fill the Zamboni with 160 gallons of water, up to 160 degrees in temperature.

Once the water hits the ice, it freezes. The optimum temperature for hockey ice, 22 degrees.

"With hot water, you have fewer impurities," Reyna explained. "Plus, hot water freezes faster and [such ice] melts slower."


I guess our Edmonton spit has 'fewer impurities' and is '160 degrees' of ice making perfection, whereas Dallas hotwater is lacking. Maybe if she swapped a little spit with our ice making crew your Ice Queen might just melt, warmup a little and become a hockey fan. But then she'd be an Oilers' fan and I that wouldn't be too good I guess!
There's a hot air joke in here somewhere. A bad one.

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09-24-2003, 02:35 PM
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Hey DarioinDenver,

What's the word on AEBISCHER? I pick him as my 1st goaltender for my Yahoo team at the live draft. Hopefully, he is going to start for the Avs and play well?

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09-24-2003, 05:34 PM
  #7
DarioinDenver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OYLer
Hey DarioinDenver,

What's the word on AEBISCHER? I pick him as my 1st goaltender for my Yahoo team at the live draft. Hopefully, he is going to start for the Avs and play well?
He's only played 4 1/2 periods in the preseason but has looked very good in only giving up 1 goal on a screened shot. He reduced his body fat significantly over the summer (you can see it in his face) without losing any weight (gained muscle). He looks very quick so far. I think he will have an excellent regular season. The playoffs might be a different story.

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09-24-2003, 10:42 PM
  #8
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That Dallas ice making article is a joke and the comments of the woman who's now in charge make me think that the ice in Dallas won't be getting better anytime soon. "Hot water is used because it has less impurities" Someone should tell the lady that in Edmonton they use distilled water because it has NO impurities, regardless of it's temperature. She should maybe try using distilled water and put it on a whole lot cooler, and maybe she wouldn't have such a slush problem on her hands. She really should spend a week with the ice makers in Edmonton so that she can see that it's not all just about geography. Those guys have forgot more details about making good ice than she'll ever learn.

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09-25-2003, 04:20 AM
  #9
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If Edmonton has the best ice in the NHL, it must be terrible out there. I've been on the ice in Skyreach, and I can think of half a dozen rinks in the Edmonton area alone with better ice.

I think the key that no one ever mentions is the temperature of the part of the building the ice is in. If they just made it a few degrees colder in there, the ice would be much better.

But then people would have to watch hockey in an arena so cold that they may need a sweater. Shocking, indeed.

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09-25-2003, 07:06 AM
  #10
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The one that had me scratching my head...
Quote:
Plus, hot water freezes faster
...uh... I'm not a professional ice-maker or anything, but... shouldn't cold water freeze faster than hot water?

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09-25-2003, 08:25 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilers_guy_eddie
The one that had me scratching my head... ...uh... I'm not a professional ice-maker or anything, but... shouldn't cold water freeze faster than hot water?

Hot water does freeze faster than cold water but the article is still a joke.

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09-25-2003, 09:42 AM
  #12
DarioinDenver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher
Hot water does freeze faster than cold water but the article is still a joke.
I agree, the article is a joke. One thing I've always wondered is why there can't be a tarp system deployed over the ice to reduce the temps. Hook up some hoses to dehumidifiers and simply reproduce the environment of successful ice surfaces around the world. Likely not that simple but "we have the technology, we can build it" I'm certain.

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09-25-2003, 09:56 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilers_guy_eddie
The one that had me scratching my head... ...uh... I'm not a professional ice-maker or anything, but... shouldn't cold water freeze faster than hot water?
You would think that the bigger band of degrees to overcome to get to freezing would going from "hot to freezing' than "cold to freezing". Thus taking longer. That's the way I think.

Yet grannies across the nation tell us to put HOT water in the ice-cube tray when re-filling it.

We need an expert! Someone to come in and say, "the latent heat of Blaa, blaa, fision, evaporation etc."

My schooling is just TOO long ago.

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09-25-2003, 10:26 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky2kurri
You would think that the bigger band of degrees to overcome to get to freezing would going from "hot to freezing' than "cold to freezing". Thus taking longer.

We need an expert! Someone to come in and say, "the latent heat of Blaa, blaa, fision, evaporation etc."
O.K. now, hot water does NOT freeze quicker than cold water. If you were able to time it, a cup of cold water would freeze quicker than a cup of hot water, simply because the cold water is closer to the freezing point, if both cups were placed in the same cold conditions ( Freezer ). Now then, hot water will actually COOL quicker than cold water if placed in the same freezer, because of :

a) Evaporation.
b) Difference between the ambient temp of the freezer and the water.

But, the cold water would get their first. This is also assuming that the hot water has the same amount of impurities in it, which is not always true. This is another reason that rink-managers use hot water. The less impurities, the "cleaner" the ice, and hot/boiling water will generally have less.

BTW, The Oilers should pull an Ottawa and let Comrie sit for the season. He had the big stick and used it when he first signed with Edmonton, and now the stick is in KLowe's hands. What's good for the goose is good for the gander and all that jazz.

Cheers,
Geoff.

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Old
09-25-2003, 10:41 AM
  #15
gretzky2kurri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpearson1968
O.K. now, hot water does NOT freeze quicker than cold water. If you were able to time it, a cup of cold water would freeze quicker than a cup of hot water, simply because the cold water is closer to the freezing point, if both cups were placed in the same cold conditions ( Freezer ). Now then, hot water will actually COOL quicker than cold water if placed in the same freezer, because of :

a) Evaporation.
b) Difference between the ambient temp of the freezer and the water.

But, the cold water would get their first. This is also assuming that the hot water has the same amount of impurities in it, which is not always true.
Ya.......what you said....

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09-25-2003, 10:58 AM
  #16
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The transfer of heat from one object to another is mathematically described as "exponential decay towards a limiting factor".

Basically, the greater the difference in the temperature of the two objects, the more quickly the heat will pass from one object to another, until the temperatures are equal.

If you pour two gallons of water at different temperatures on the ice at the same time the hotter fluid will rapidly close the difference in terms of temperature, but a head start is still a head start and the cooler water will freeze first.

If you look up exponential decay on google you can probably find a formuls somewhere.

Edit: pouring hot water on the ice will melt some of the ice surface and help to smooth it out though.

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09-25-2003, 11:15 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky2kurri
You would think that the bigger band of degrees to overcome to get to freezing would going from "hot to freezing' than "cold to freezing". Thus taking longer. That's the way I think.

Yet grannies across the nation tell us to put HOT water in the ice-cube tray when re-filling it.

We need an expert! Someone to come in and say, "the latent heat of Blaa, blaa, fision, evaporation etc."

My schooling is just TOO long ago.
I am thinking that the water temperature can't go from "hot" to "frozen" without going through "cool" first. So if it takes cool water X minutes to freeze, and it takes hot water Y minutes to go from hot to cool, then it takes hot water X+Y minutes to freeze. You could probably state this mathematically using words like "intermediate value theorem" and "monotonic decreasing function". Let's test this out using some marguerita mix.

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09-25-2003, 11:26 AM
  #18
gretzky2kurri
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So basically the "rate of cooling" is faster when adding hot to freezing. But the cooler liquid gets to the finish line (frozen) sooner at a slower "rate of cooling".

It's like Ferguson "somehow" having a clear break-away from the Stars own blueline, Zubov is chasing him but started at the Oiler blueline and is actually skating faster than Fergie but doesn't catch him.

Wait a minute.........bad example. Zubov would likely catch him.

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Old
09-25-2003, 11:33 AM
  #19
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That would actually be a linear equation, ie if you graphed the distance between Fergie and Zuby it would produce a straight line.

If Fergie smelled really bad and Zuby started skating slower and slower the closer he got to him then it would be the same thing.

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09-25-2003, 11:39 AM
  #20
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the big thing about using hot water to flood a rink as OS mentioned, is that it melts a couple millimetres off the top so that all the chips and garbage that was hacked into it while playing is basically melted, and allowed to freeze again. Hot water will cool faster than cold water over a cold surface, but only because it has to overcome a greater diff in temp to accomodate to its new environment, so the rate is faster in hot water, but cold water will freeze faster on a cold rink because it has less temperature to change to become frozen. That's why its ideal, for the average outdoor rink, to flood it with whatever, and then when the surface is banged up, come out with a pail of boiling water and pour it over the cracks, bumps, and scratches. Its kinda cool because if you have a ****** rink and you want some good ice to play on all you do is dump some hot water on it and in 15 minutes (i kid you not), in edmonton's winter weather, it will be perfect ice. BTW that zamboni driver was right in a way about edmonton being the perfect place to make ice, but as far as i know most nhl rinks are indoors, where any building can be any temperature with today's technology, and edmonton weather can vary from freezing one night to boiling the next day. Sure you can make wicked ice without knowing anything here, that's what black ice is all about, the slipperiest ice from only melted snow runoff. But indoors temp control and everything else makes it just as hard to have good ice and a warm building than anywhere else in the nhl. I remember Akinsdale arena being the ********* place to skate in st albert in the summer and winter when i was small, because they didn't know what they were doing, llike the dallas ice-making team.

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09-25-2003, 11:46 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan
If Edmonton has the best ice in the NHL, it must be terrible out there. I've been on the ice in Skyreach, and I can think of half a dozen rinks in the Edmonton area alone with better ice.

I think the key that no one ever mentions is the temperature of the part of the building the ice is in. If they just made it a few degrees colder in there, the ice would be much better.

But then people would have to watch hockey in an arena so cold that they may need a sweater. Shocking, indeed.
When the Oilers play on it and when it is open for skating or minor hockey or whatever it is totally different...They make it different for oiler games

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