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Old
02-11-2010, 10:57 AM
  #376
shutehinside
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
That's not aggressive in the Burke way people want.
See, Burke is a chess player. He'll sacrifice some men, take some steps backwards, risk losing a lot, and then after you finnish laughing at how pathetic he is, you look- he's got your king, checkmate.
See, we all Lol'd at the effort of sacrificing his whole offence to get a solid D-core of big scary tough guys. Okay, you suck, but you can fight, and your bottom 6 is not bad. Then he signs a goalie. Still suck, you can fight, and sometimes you're gonna stop the puck. Then he picks up Kessel. Okay, you're tough, can stop some pucks, and one of your guys can and will score a lot of goals but you have no picks, Haha, You suck. Then he deals for Phaneuf and J.S. Giguerre. Okay, you still suck, you just have a really good top four, you're going to stop a lot of pucks, you have a pretty good goal scorer, but no picks, and no offence. What's next? Get Kadri up? Get an exiting UFA to put on the first line? Burke is potentially one to two moves away from being a- wait for it, CONTENDER. Just look at all the crazy wheeling and dealing to get the Sedins. And getting back to your quote, Burke is a "I don't give a **** who you are, what you do, you're going to help this team win, or else I'm going to find someone else who will. And even if you do help this team win, I can still find someone else who will do the job better, so don't get to comfortable. I don't care if I make a mockery of this team, we're going to come out of this one on top in the long run" Gainey was a more " We'll try to sign the best players, since we're buyers, but we can't take a step back and make risky moves, because that's a step in the wrong direction, and we as a team/city expect to win soon"
You said it.

I have to say the bolded parts of your statement are the only ones substantiated in real life. As for your hopes, well, let's just say they're just that.

1 Washington 60 41 12 7 89 239 167 23-3-3 18-9-4 9-0-1
2 New Jersey 59 36 20 3 75 155 137 19-9-1 17-11-2 3-5-2
3 Buffalo 58 32 18 8 72 160 147 18-7-6 14-11-2 2-6-2
4 Pittsburgh 60 36 22 2 74 190 172 18-10-1 18-12-1 6-3-1 Won 1
5 Ottawa 60 34 22 4 72 167 167 22-8-3 12-14-1 9-1-0 Won 1
6 Montreal 61 29 26 6 64 160 167 15-12-4 14-14-2 6-3-1 Won 1
7 Philadelphia 58 30 25 3 63 170 156 17-11-2 13-14-1 6-4-0 Won 2
8 Tampa Bay 58 26 21 11 63 150 167 17-6-6 9-15-5 7-2-1 Won 4

9 Boston 58 25 22 11 61 141 148 13-12-6 12-10-5 2-5-3 Won 2
10 Atlanta 58 25 24 9 59 175 187 13-10-4 12-14-5 4-4-2
11 NY Rangers 60 26 27 7 59 153 165 13-15-4 13-12-3 2-8-0 Lost 1
12 Florida 59 24 26 9 57 153 171 12-10-6 12-16-3 3-6-1 Lost 4
13 NY Islanders 60 24 28 8 56 151 186 15-11-2 9-17-6 2-8-0 Lost 1
14 Carolina 59 22 30 7 51 159 189 14-12-3 8-18-4 7-3-0 Won 3
15 Toronto 60 19 30 11 49 162 204 11-13-5 8-17-6 2-6-2 Lost 1

As a Habs fan I can honestly say that yes, this is MAGICAL

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Old
02-11-2010, 11:16 AM
  #377
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Magical...just like the guy on the box of Lucky Charms.....anyhow, Burkie had a plan for the Leafs, and ownership made him change it, instead of rebuild, it was re-tool, and now has no first round picks for 2 years...this is gonna take time, and Leaf fans are almost as impatient as Habs fans...
What the hell? We've been waiting for over 40 years. Nobody is more patient than we are.

And the ownership is interfering with the plan is untrue, just look at the "autonomy clause" built into his contract. Burke is not a traditional rebuild kind of man. His plan is to significantly speed up the rebuild by picking up young, star players with loads of potential. I guess we'll wait and see if his approach is the right one, but to claim it's already a bust after 1 year on the job is slightly premature.

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02-11-2010, 11:20 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by inBobwetrust View Post
"Gainey never did, and that is take a risk"


Top 5 Bold Moves By Bob

5) Draft Carey Price in the Top 5. Huge risk.

4) Fire Carbo and go behind the bench himself. If Markov and Schneider don't get hurt (FU Leafs) we beat Boston in the playoffs. Risky move, took brass balls.

3) Trade top prospect for Kovalev. Balej got hurt, Kovy responded to Bob's strong hand on the reins. Could have easily gone the other way. Big risk at the time.

2) Trade Huet and push Price into the #1 spot after half a season in the NHL. Unbelievable high-risk move. Didn't work but you have to respect the stones.

1) Let all 11 UFAs walk and rebuild the team with fast, small, skilled players. Flies in the face of convention, potential for fail is a bigger risk than Burke the Jerk has ever faced.
I thought he was TOO high risk by getting Gomez and trading Huet and going with 2 rookies on a 1st place team.

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02-11-2010, 11:22 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by ccliquer View Post
What the hell? We've been waiting for over 40 years. Nobody is more patient than we are.

And the ownership is interfering with the plan is untrue, just look at the "autonomy clause" built into his contract. Burke is not a traditional rebuild kind of man. His plan is to significantly speed up the rebuild by picking up young, star players with loads of potential. I guess we'll wait and see if his approach is the right one, but to claim it's already a bust after 1 year on the job is slightly premature.
To claim he is a genius for adding big salaries and dumping draft picks is also very premature...especially in the cap world.

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02-11-2010, 12:01 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by ccliquer View Post
What the hell? We've been waiting for over 40 years. Nobody is more patient than we are.

And the ownership is interfering with the plan is untrue, just look at the "autonomy clause" built into his contract. Burke is not a traditional rebuild kind of man. His plan is to significantly speed up the rebuild by picking up young, star players with loads of potential. I guess we'll wait and see if his approach is the right one, but to claim it's already a bust after 1 year on the job is slightly premature.
We're not saying he's a bust after 1 year, the standings are saying that. Frankly, the Leafs were better positioned last off season before Burke made all his moves. Now they'll be up against the cap with no good picks and no forwards. Say all you want about Kaberle and the UFA's but you'll have to replace them with other players and given the amount of money Burke has to spend he won't get much an upgrade on them anyways. Not to mention that Kaberle is your best defencman and the catalyst of what ever transition game you have. Dion is not a replacement for Kaberle but rather for McCabe. Trading away Kaberle makes your back end purely pilons so even if Burke used that $4MM on a forward, it's not going to get you the same calibre player as Kaberle and now there's zero transition game and no one to quarterback the PP. Kaberle is the best thing you guys have going and you all want to trade him for some crazy reason.

Last year there was hope, this year there's worries.

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Old
02-11-2010, 12:27 PM
  #381
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I cant believe Pierre McGuire has so many fans on this board god damn... he's like an icon for little school girls.

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02-11-2010, 01:54 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
We're not saying he's a bust after 1 year, the standings are saying that. Frankly, the Leafs were better positioned last off season before Burke made all his moves. Now they'll be up against the cap with no good picks and no forwards. Say all you want about Kaberle and the UFA's but you'll have to replace them with other players and given the amount of money Burke has to spend he won't get much an upgrade on them anyways. Not to mention that Kaberle is your best defencman and the catalyst of what ever transition game you have. Dion is not a replacement for Kaberle but rather for McCabe. Trading away Kaberle makes your back end purely pilons so even if Burke used that $4MM on a forward, it's not going to get you the same calibre player as Kaberle and now there's zero transition game and no one to quarterback the PP. Kaberle is the best thing you guys have going and you all want to trade him for some crazy reason.

Last year there was hope, this year there's worries.
You think we'll be up against the cap even though is not true and it has been pointed out in this thread.

And I love Kaberle, but if he's our best defenseman, why the heck are four of our defensemen averaging more icetime than him?

We want to trade him for some prospects/picks or a forward to help fix our problems up front. He is also our best trading chip, surely you can see that. The reasoning here is to try to get younger so we can be more competitive in the long-term, and considering Kaberle is already in his prime, by the time we're a competitive team, he'll be old and washed up (and a very useless trading chip at that point).

I know we're at the bottom of the league right now, but we've made some trades that put us in a better position next year, while cutting loose with expendable players such as Stajan, Mayers, and Blake. This year is already lost, every Leaf fan knows it, we are not lamenting it any longer, we are simply looking forward to the years ahead. I think a few of the habs fans here understand that Burke's plan is looking ahead to 2-4 seasons, so the fact that we're 29th today doesn't matter. Thankfully, there's nowhere left to go but up.

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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
To claim he is a genius for adding big salaries and dumping draft picks is also very premature...especially in the cap world.
I agree with that. Of course, I've never claimed he's a genius or a bust either. Other habs fans seemed to be having this spirited debate about his managerial acumen before I arrived. I just wanted to point out that our cap situation is not as dire as its being portrayed.

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02-11-2010, 02:14 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by ccliquer View Post
You think we'll be up against the cap even though is not true and it has been pointed out in this thread.

And I love Kaberle, but if he's our best defenseman, why the heck are four of our defensemen averaging more icetime than him?

We want to trade him for some prospects/picks or a forward to help fix our problems up front. He is also our best trading chip, surely you can see that. The reasoning here is to try to get younger so we can be more competitive in the long-term, and considering Kaberle is already in his prime, by the time we're a competitive team, he'll be old and washed up (and a very useless trading chip at that point).

I know we're at the bottom of the league right now, but we've made some trades that put us in a better position next year, while cutting loose with expendable players such as Stajan, Mayers, and Blake. This year is already lost, every Leaf fan knows it, we are not lamenting it any longer, we are simply looking forward to the years ahead. I think a few of the habs fans here understand that Burke's plan is looking ahead to 2-4 seasons, so the fact that we're 29th today doesn't matter. Thankfully, there's nowhere left to go but up.



I agree with that. Of course, I've never claimed he's a genius or a bust either. Other habs fans seemed to be having this spirited debate about his managerial acumen before I arrived. I just wanted to point out that our cap situation is not as dire as its being portrayed.

Sorry but I disagree on what you're saying. I think you're in a worse position now as you have more money tied up and less avaialble to you then last year AND you're lower in the standings.

On the second point, if Burke's plan was looking ahead 2-4 seasons then why give up 1st round picks and a 2nd over the next 2 years?? If you'r looking forward to a rebuild then you look at the draft, if you want to do it right away then you sign UFA's and make trades. Burke has been doing the latter so how can you say it's a 2-4 year rebuild?

Sorry but as most Leaf fans go I think your diluting yourself to what's actually happening here. Burke is going for the quick fix and buying a Cup and will fail miserably. He's trying to build up his defence like he did in Anaheim but fails to realise Giggy is past his prime, Phaneuf is no Pronger, Kable is no Neids, Kessel is not Selanne, Poni is not Getzlaf etc etc etc... Not to mention that the farm team is also in ruins and last in the AHL with very few quality prospects coming up. Any aspirations you think the Leafs may have of future greatness are simply put, not there.

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02-11-2010, 03:02 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
Sorry but I disagree on what you're saying. I think you're in a worse position now as you have more money tied up and less avaialble to you then last year AND you're lower in the standings.

On the second point, if Burke's plan was looking ahead 2-4 seasons then why give up 1st round picks and a 2nd over the next 2 years?? If you'r looking forward to a rebuild then you look at the draft, if you want to do it right away then you sign UFA's and make trades. Burke has been doing the latter so how can you say it's a 2-4 year rebuild?

Sorry but as most Leaf fans go I think your diluting yourself to what's actually happening here. Burke is going for the quick fix and buying a Cup and will fail miserably. He's trying to build up his defence like he did in Anaheim but fails to realise Giggy is past his prime, Phaneuf is no Pronger, Kable is no Neids, Kessel is not Selanne, Poni is not Getzlaf etc etc etc... Not to mention that the farm team is also in ruins and last in the AHL with very few quality prospects coming up. Any aspirations you think the Leafs may have of future greatness are simply put, not there.
I'm not the type to overrate our future, but we have some promising young players already in our lineup: Bozak, Hanson, Stalberg, Gunnarsson, Kulemin, Schenn, and Gustavsson - to name a few of them. Then you factor in Kessel (22, and younger than 4 of those players) and Phaneuf (24), and Kadri (19) I see the emergence of a decent young core. It likely isn't as impressive as other teams out there (LA comes to mind), but we're on year 2 of the "retooling process," and I do see some encouraging signs.

I do agree that the Leafs need to find a way to pick up more prospects/picks to keep stocking the cupboard, which is one reason why as a fanbase, some of us want to trade Kaberle.

The Leafs gave up the draft picks because we think Kessel will be better, and is young enough, to be a key piece of the puzzle. I would have offer sheeted the Bruins, but I guess Burke isn't a fan of burning bridges with other NHL teams, perhaps. Anyway, we'll have to respectfully disagree about this. I still think you do not have an accurate grasp on our cap situation and are underrating some of the young players we currently have, but that's fine. It will be interesting to see where our respective teams are in about five years, that's for sure.

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02-11-2010, 03:17 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by ccliquer View Post
I'm not the type to overrate our future, but we have some promising young players already in our lineup: Bozak, Hanson, Stalberg, Gunnarsson, Kulemin, Schenn, and Gustavsson - to name a few of them. Then you factor in Kessel (22, and younger than 4 of those players) and Phaneuf (24), and Kadri (19) I see the emergence of a decent young core. It likely isn't as impressive as other teams out there (LA comes to mind), but we're on year 2 of the "retooling process," and I do see some encouraging signs.

I do agree that the Leafs need to find a way to pick up more prospects/picks to keep stocking the cupboard, which is one reason why as a fanbase, some of us want to trade Kaberle.

The Leafs gave up the draft picks because we think Kessel will be better, and is young enough, to be a key piece of the puzzle. I would have offer sheeted the Bruins, but I guess Burke isn't a fan of burning bridges with other NHL teams, perhaps. Anyway, we'll have to respectfully disagree about this. I still think you do not have an accurate grasp on our cap situation and are underrating some of the young players we currently have, but that's fine. It will be interesting to see where our respective teams are in about five years, that's for sure.
To be honest, I see nothing special in these prospects that are highly vaunted that weren't there with Stajan, Steen, Coliacavo, Stralman, Raycroft, Boyes etc etc. It's the same story every 5 years from you Leaf fans always trying to convince everyone how great your team WILL be once they get better when the whole time I think you're trying to convince yourselves. Ask yourself if your current Leafs were wearing Habs Red and White if you think they'de be a team to be rekoned with in the next 2-4 years? If the answer is yes, stop and do it again until you realise your team really isn't very good and has less a chance of getting better now then it did last year.

For crying out loud after all the changes made to your roster, all the signings and trades since Burke has taken over where you should have been in the playoffs and challenging for the CUP you're in LAST place!!! How has his master plan made you a better team when you have a worse record then before he came. To hear you speak you're a perenniel contender in the making when you don't even have a farm team. I've come to realise that at the end of the day you are right. It has to get better because it can't get any worse!

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02-11-2010, 03:23 PM
  #386
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To be honest, I see nothing special in these prospects that are highly vaunted that weren't there with Stajan, Steen, Coliacavo, Stralman, Raycroft, Boyes etc etc. It's the same story every 5 years from you Leaf fans always trying to convince everyone how great your team WILL be once they get better when the whole time I think you're trying to convince yourselves. Ask yourself if your current Leafs were wearing Habs Red and White if you think they'de be a team to be rekoned with in the next 2-4 years? If the answer is yes, stop and do it again until you realise your team really isn't very good and has less a chance of getting better now then it did last year.

For crying out loud after all the changes made to your roster, all the signings and trades since Burke has taken over where you should have been in the playoffs and challenging for the CUP you're in LAST place!!! How has his master plan made you a better team when you have a worse record then before he came. To hear you speak you're a perenniel contender in the making when you don't even have a farm team. I've come to realise that at the end of the day you are right. It has to get better because it can't get any worse!
Agreed, the leafs pool of prospects doesnt impress me much
Montreal, Washington, Chicago, La all our good teams that also have better prospects, the leafs dont have much hope imo

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02-11-2010, 03:31 PM
  #387
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To be honest, I see nothing special in these prospects that are highly vaunted that weren't there with Stajan, Steen, Coliacavo, Stralman, Raycroft, Boyes etc etc. It's the same story every 5 years from you Leaf fans always trying to convince everyone how great your team WILL be once they get better when the whole time I think you're trying to convince yourselves.!
This is so true! The hype on Alex Steen was huge. He was supposed to be a big front line player for the Leafs and Coliacovo was supposed to be the future anchor of their D.

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02-11-2010, 04:53 PM
  #388
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Did anybody catch Pierre today raving about Sergei on team 990? He said Sergei is the one player in Montreal that if you could capture his imagination and made him want to be a star, would be a huge star.

He also said a GM told him today he would calling Gauthier to offer a "big deal" with the GM offering a former 1st round pick who would be "extremely useful" to Montreal. This GM's team is looking to get younger.

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02-11-2010, 04:55 PM
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I just heard Pierre talking about that as well. Could this mean that the Frolov trade is actually in the works?

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02-11-2010, 04:58 PM
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well L.A is not really looking to get younger so its not frolov that pierre was talking about

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02-11-2010, 05:01 PM
  #391
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well L.A is not really looking to get younger so its not frolov that pierre was talking about
I know Colaiacovo was a 1st round pick and he's avaible. The Blues are looking to get younger....

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02-11-2010, 05:02 PM
  #392
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Just a hunch and it`s just that, Tuomo Ruutu from Carolina. If they get a top 3 pick this year, they draft a seguin or hall, Ruutu is dispensable.

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02-11-2010, 05:05 PM
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Just a hunch and it`s just that, Tuomo Ruutu from Carolina. If they get a top 3 pick this year, they draft a seguin or hall, Ruutu is dispensable.
good guess

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02-11-2010, 05:06 PM
  #394
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What the hell? We've been waiting for over 40 years. Nobody is more patient than we are.

And the ownership is interfering with the plan is untrue, just look at the "autonomy clause" built into his contract. Burke is not a traditional rebuild kind of man. His plan is to significantly speed up the rebuild by picking up young, star players with loads of potential. I guess we'll wait and see if his approach is the right one, but to claim it's already a bust after 1 year on the job is slightly premature.
I did not say he was a bust....the one thing he said when he took over was, he was going to strip it down, and build through the draft, and one year in he took orders from above ( even though he said he would make all hockey decisions) to re-tool not rebuild...he changed his own tune one year in...is it the right approach? Who knows...it seems strange though, that he sent 2 first rounders, and a second round pick for a 35 goal guy who has had a bad rep in the room.......Burkie beats his own drum, and loves to be the star of the show, he is perfect for TO...

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02-11-2010, 05:22 PM
  #395
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Did anybody catch Pierre today raving about Sergei on team 990? He said Sergei is the one player in Montreal that if you could capture his imagination and made him want to be a star, would be a huge star.

He also said a GM told him today he would calling Gauthier to offer a "big deal" with the GM offering a former 1st round pick who would be "extremely useful" to Montreal. This GM's team is looking to get younger.
Lecavalier is a former 1st round pick

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02-11-2010, 05:27 PM
  #396
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He also said a GM told him today he would calling Gauthier to offer a "big deal" with the GM offering a former 1st round pick who would be "extremely useful" to Montreal. This GM's team is looking to get younger.
Was he insinuating Sergei being involved?

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02-11-2010, 05:30 PM
  #397
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Just a hunch and it`s just that, Tuomo Ruutu from Carolina. If they get a top 3 pick this year, they draft a seguin or hall, Ruutu is dispensable.
Tuomo Ruutu is a warrior. I would LOVE to see this guy in a Habs uniform.

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02-11-2010, 05:54 PM
  #398
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To be honest, I see nothing special in these prospects that are highly vaunted that weren't there with Stajan, Steen, Coliacavo, Stralman, Raycroft, Boyes etc etc. It's the same story every 5 years from you Leaf fans always trying to convince everyone how great your team WILL be once they get better when the whole time I think you're trying to convince yourselves. Ask yourself if your current Leafs were wearing Habs Red and White if you think they'de be a team to be rekoned with in the next 2-4 years? If the answer is yes, stop and do it again until you realise your team really isn't very good and has less a chance of getting better now then it did last year.

For crying out loud after all the changes made to your roster, all the signings and trades since Burke has taken over where you should have been in the playoffs and challenging for the CUP you're in LAST place!!! How has his master plan made you a better team when you have a worse record then before he came. To hear you speak you're a perenniel contender in the making when you don't even have a farm team. I've come to realise that at the end of the day you are right. It has to get better because it can't get any worse!
You're getting pretty worked up about this. All I said is that we have a few interesting core pieces (Kessel, Phaneuf, Schenn for example) and some potential in our young players. I've also admitted other teams have better young players than we do - I apologize for not providing a detailed list of which teams do, but my point was that we are building a promising group. But, again, it is the 2nd year (only 1 year under Burke) that we've been at this, so for me to expect immediate results is a bit stupid. Apparently, you think 1 year is more than enough time to judge his body of work. I disagree.

I make it sound like we're a perennial contender? Now you're just putting words in my mouth. And yeah, of course I'm going to think that we're not going to finish 29th every year. That's not blind optimism, this is the first time in many years that we've been THIS bad, so I don't think it's utterly naive of me to think that one day we may, you know, improve.

As for several of the players you named, many of them are serviceable NHLers (substitute Raycroft with Rask, because we drafted the latter), even if they will never be great players. I already know my team isn't good - we're in 29th place - I don't know why you are repeating things I'm well aware of. Please show me the quotes where I said we're a good team this year or will be in the next. I just think its asinine for you to project into the future and state outright that we won't be good five years from now either. A lot of things can change from now and then. I'm amused by your efforts to paint me as a delusional Leafs fan, however.

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02-11-2010, 06:57 PM
  #399
Kimota
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
That's not aggressive in the Burke way people want.
See, Burke is a chess player. He'll sacrifice some men, take some steps backwards, risk losing a lot, and then after you finnish laughing at how pathetic he is, you look- he's got your king, checkmate.
See, we all Lol'd at the effort of sacrificing his whole offence to get a solid D-core of big scary tough guys. Okay, you suck, but you can fight, and your bottom 6 is not bad. Then he signs a goalie. Still suck, you can fight, and sometimes you're gonna stop the puck. Then he picks up Kessel. Okay, you're tough, can stop some pucks, and one of your guys can and will score a lot of goals but you have no picks, Haha, You suck. Then he deals for Phaneuf and J.S. Giguerre. Okay, you still suck, you just have a really good top four, you're going to stop a lot of pucks, you have a pretty good goal scorer, but no picks, and no offence. What's next? Get Kadri up? Get an exiting UFA to put on the first line? Burke is potentially one to two moves away from being a- wait for it, CONTENDER. Just look at all the crazy wheeling and dealing to get the Sedins. And getting back to your quote, Burke is a "I don't give a **** who you are, what you do, you're going to help this team win, or else I'm going to find someone else who will. And even if you do help this team win, I can still find someone else who will do the job better, so don't get to comfortable. I don't care if I make a mockery of this team, we're going to come out of this one on top in the long run" Gainey was a more " We'll try to sign the best players, since we're buyers, but we can't take a step back and make risky moves, because that's a step in the wrong direction, and we as a team/city expect to win soon"
Pretty much. Burke is not afraid of anything. He goes in there and get the players he wants. People are saying he lost all his offense in the Calgary deal? No problem for him, he'll find forwards later. And what's funny it's that he'll find good players.

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Old
02-12-2010, 03:16 PM
  #400
Player 61
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Anyone listening to Pierre McGuire, he's on Team990 for all of Mitch's show this aft. They are discussing some guys the Habs could go after, & Mueller's name came up. He says that Mueller's has lost passion for hockey at this moment & might leave all together in the near future, apparently he's very religious & feels that's his calling.

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